A real "LED X halide" thread, scientifically. LOL!

[BeanAnimal]

HE LIVES! And this is the right post to try to end the discussion on.

Never got out of hobby, just took a break for 5-10 years from the forums and the nonsense

 

[MoshJosh]

Why would someone choose MH over LED or T5? I am legit asking. And I mean aside from any unproven claims about spectrum or UVB. If I could grow coral at relatively the same rate with MH, LED, and T5, why choose MH???

I can see the price argument for massive tanks, though posters above have challenged that notion. What else?

Also with MH can I ramp up and down? Can I change the spectrum to fit my aesthetic preference? Do many of the fixture have app support? can I easily program a lighting schedule?

I'm all for using something that isn't "the cool new thing", especially if it saves me money and is effective.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Why would someone choose MH over LED or T5? I am legit asking. And I mean aside from any unproven claim about spectrum or UVB. If I could grow coral at relatively the same rate with MH, LED, and T5, why choose MH???

I can see the price argument for massive tanks, though posters above have challenged that notion. What else?

Also with MH can I ramp up and down? Can I change the spectrum to fit my aesthetic preference? Do many of the fixture have app support? can I easily program a lighting schedule?

I'm all for using something that isn't "the cool new thing", especially if it saves me money and is effective.

They look amazing (at least to some people, me included).

No you can't ramp them up and down or adjust them. They [metal halide bulbs] are a single output point source (a plasma arc) thats colors are derived from the envelope gas and/or any phosphors on the coating of the envelope.

They are ON or OFF.

 

[A. grandis]

I think that is missing a major part of the story. LED's work. We were skeptical of them for years, but the evidence that you can grow bomber coral tanks under LED became impossible to ignore.

I don't think anyone in the right mind can say that LEDs don't grow corals. Triton T8s back in the day could grow bomber corals if the application would be right, to the point of sexual reproduction. All the participants here agree that LED grows corals.

The practical benifits of LED (size, heat, controllability, color changing, no bulb changes, no heavy hot ballast, etc) make them much more attractive to most reefers over MH given that both grow coral just fine.

That's included in the preferences though. Anyone that wants to try halides should be able to, and those hard core halide guys actually don't care about about heavy ballasts, bulky fixtures, etc. Some newbies that tried halides say they will never go back... it's all about preferences.

Of course that is going to get recommended to newbies. Space for MH on the shelves for vendors is a real world consideration. Of course compainies are going to market all that.

Except for the fact that both ReefBrite and Hamilton were willing to ship their gear directly from their facilities. So, the "shelves deal" isn't the real reason then! But that's done already...

There is no BIG LED manipulating the market in nefarious ways.

When they compare to halides and T5s as "better", "faster grow", " more colorful" is the beginning of the problem. Not everyone will agree with that to every application! Coverage is another problem. What they suggest isn't what should be, many times. Then people need to spend much more to try remedy the situation... Not to mention the videos bombarding halides and T5s mocking the technology. Some LED manufacturers also mock halide technology. It's everywhere... They have the right to do so, but that's not polite. I think that is a bit unprofessional.

The same happened with beckett downdraft skimmers and needle wheel skimmers. The benefits of convienience of one ended up beating out the other, and both do the job just fine - and yes there are still folks out that that swear that beckett are the magic in their sauce. And good for them. That's how markets work, there is o BIG NEEDLEwheel manipulating the market.

Same.

The Aquaclear and maxijet power heads have been mostly replaced by other water motion devices, but some people still swear by them, but the replacements generally move enough water, and have more control options tha off and on.
You can still get MH, Beckett, and Aquaclear power heads. They are like the vinyl records of the reefing world. Some folks love love love them and that is great and fine and wonderful, but convincing folks to go back to them from current offerings is going to take some real compelling and impactful evidence.

yup

On the idea of MH not being produced anymore - this was real. We used 86 1000 watt MH over the big reef at Steinhart, and Ushio did indeed stop making one of the bulbs they were using and said they were going to stop most of them. It wasn't a made up scare tactic from online personalities, it was actually happening.

I called them many times on that, specially about the 250W14K. They told me the bulbs were discontinued back then, but now the bulbs are back in stock for some reason. I hope to stay.

UHI-S250AQ/14/CWA, Aqualite

USHIO Item Code 5002092 Product Series Aqualite Prod. ID / ANSI Code UHI-S250AQ/14/CWA Description Aqualite UHI-S250AQ/14/CWA, 14,000K, T15 Description 2 250W, 14000K, E39 Item Type Metal Halide Base E39 Voltage 133 Wattage 250 Amperage 3 Burn Position ANY Bulb Shape T15 Bulb Finish CLEAR CRI 70...

estore.ushio.com

That isn't true though - Some produce a natural sun screen in part to block uv and water filters out some wavelengths.

that's part of it then.

To many times when people invoke someone else and say what they said, the situation is often more complicated that what is represented. Again, water filters out wavelengths, so 5m down, nothing is utilizing the whole spectrum from the sun. This is a broad generality and I would be suprised that Sanjay thinks that.

He actually published that statement, and that was the reason why I contacted him in that regard.

Coke would be really happy and there are other sodas on the market that are readily available. There are lots of sodas that are no longer available or hard to get. But the analogy doesn't really work, because all things are not really equal between MH and LED they way they are between coke and pepsi.

They both offer the "photons" and grow corals "just fine", right? That's what many say, so...

This has been a useful discussion for me. Thanks everyone. I look forward to any compelling evidence that we should change back to MH.

No one wants to change your personal preferences here. I'm not here to convince you to get back to halides. You can use whatever pleases you, my friend. This thread is just to show some evidence that LEDs will not emit UV as halides do. We are all assigned to reef as we wish.

Are you Rich or Ben? I'm asking because of your avatar.

 

[A. grandis]

HE LIVES! And this is the right post to try to end the discussion on.

I hope you stay. This is not going to end anytime soon. Trust me on that. LOL!

 

[A. grandis]

Never got out of hobby, just took a break for 5-10 years from the forums and the nonsense

I hope you will bring more sense to this thread! Welcome!

 

[areefer01]

Why would someone choose MH over LED or T5? I am legit asking.

Why choose a Ford F150 or a Ram 1500? It is about choices. It is about a hobbyist use case. Requirements, goals, budget, and more. Simply put if you have a 48" tall tank with a goal of keeping high light and nutrient corals at all levels of the display maybe a panel type LED kit isn't going to work. On the other hand a MH light may or a LED matrix array and lens. Now let us say we are dealing with several thousands of gallons and a 10 or more foot depth will those same kits work or perform equally?

It is a choice. And it is made based on requirements and product availability. And not everything is available across all state lines.

 

[MoshJosh]

Why choose a Ford F150 or a Ram 1500? It is about choices. It is about a hobbyist use case. Requirements, goals, budget, and more. Simply put if you have a 48" tall tank with a goal of keeping high light and nutrient corals at all levels of the display maybe a panel type LED kit isn't going to work. On the other hand a MH light may or a LED matrix array and lens. Now let us say we are dealing with several thousands of gallons and a 10 or more foot depth will those same kits work or perform equally?

It is a choice. And it is made based on requirements and product availability. And not everything is available across all state lines.

I think you are missing the point of my post. I am not convinced we are talking about F-150s vs Ram 1500s. . . I was hoping someone could convince me that we were.

Yes, MH will have specific use cases where it outshines other options. . . though I don't know many of us have 48" deep tanks. . . but as a generality, for most reefers, for new reefers, for the tanks available on store shelves, is there any reason to go MH. Does MH offer any advantages for the "downsides". I know some people above said "some people don't care about X, Y, or Z", but I would say, as a generality, I think most reefers are concerned about size, heat, customizability, and on and on.

So are we taking about pickup trucks vs pickup trucks or are we talking about pickup trucks vs bulldozers. If the goal is driving to work (growing corals), which both vehicles can do, then why am I picking the dozer. . .

sorry got lost in the weeds a little bit there but still.

 

[Troylee]

Let’s open a bigger can of worms here.. ya know Dino’s we’re never around much as they are today!! It’s almost impossible to not get them today in this hobby.. back when everyone was running mh and t5’s … Dino’s were far and few between! Let’s fast forward to today and the majority are using leds and have Dino outbreaks like clock work! With all that being said a uv light is affective at reducing most strains of Dino’s… you think mh putting out the uv helped keep them at bay and todays led lacking them are allowing them to flourish? I’ve seen it over and over and everyone says it’s dry rock or sand blah blah blah.. zero nutrients? I got them and my nutrients were super high coming from a 10 years old fowlr tank that wasn’t taken care of.. I put a radion over it and boom! Algae and Dino’s for a month straight ugh lol… I effectively beat them with a uv light… maybe I’m way off base here but it’s really got my wheels spinning…

 

[areefer01]

I think you are missing the point of my post. I am not convinced we are talking about F-150s vs Ram 1500s. . . I was hoping someone could convince me that we were.

Yes, MH will have specific use cases where it outshines other options. . . though I don't know many of us have 48" deep tanks. . . but as a generality, for most reefers, for new reefers, for the tanks available on store shelves, is there any reason to go MH. Does MH offer any advantages for the "downsides". I know some people above said "some people don't care about X, Y, or Z", but I would say, as a generality, I think most reefers are concerned about size, heat, customizability, and on and on.

So are we taking about pickup truck vs pickup trucks or are we talking about pickup trucks vs bulldozers. If the goal is driving to work (growing corals, which both vehicles can do) then why am I picking the dozer. . .

sorry got lost in the weeds a little bit there but still.

No need to apologize - a lot can be missed in back and forth forum posts. I was just replying to the why and you actually had a deeper question in there.

Hope your day is going well.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I hope you will bring more sense to this thread! Welcome!

Ohh I don't do that anymore. I learned a long time ago that you can't bash fact into people's brains when said brains are full of opinion. I have no dog in the fight.

I made the mistake of entering a "tank cycling thread" a week or two ago and was quickly reminded why I took a sabbatical from reefing forums and club leadership several years ago.

I am here mostly as a spectator

 

[A. grandis]

Ohh I don't do that anymore. I learned a long time ago that you can't bash fact into people's brains when said brains are full of opinion. I have no dog in the fight.

I made the mistake of entering a "tank cycling thread" a week or two ago and was quickly reminded why I took a sabbatical from reefing forums and club leadership several years ago.

I am here mostly as a spectator

I hear you... I decided to grab the metal halide flag in 2012 after a long time resting from the battles at ReefCentral, then was almost killed by the LED crowd back then here. I try to get out of this forum couple times and MH fans keep sending me PMs. I get fired again and come back to get more bullets. One guy even called me "metal halide guru" and I'm not even from India. LOL! I had many scars from this forum. I'm glad the owner is a pastor. I think he keeps praying for me.

 

[oreo54]

Let’s open a bigger can of worms here.. ya know Dino’s we’re never around much as they are today!! It’s almost impossible to not get them today in this hobby.. back when everyone was running mh and t5’s … Dino’s were far and few between! Let’s fast forward to today and the majority are using leds and have Dino outbreaks like clock work! With all that being said a uv light is affective at reducing most strains of Dino’s…

See what the problem ALWAYS is to put it bluntly... There is not enough real proof EITHER way.
There is your experiences and there are others.

Just had an interesting private conversation. This fellow was asking my opinion about using blue actinic lighting as the sole source. My reply - Theoretically possible, but my only experience in trying it resulted in a massive dinoflagellate outbreak within 24 hours. He reported a similar experience after changing from halides to T5s....

Spectrum and Dinoflagellate Outbreak?

Just had an interesting private conversation. This fellow was asking my opinion about using blue actinic lighting as the sole source. My reply - Theoretically possible, but my only experience in trying it resulted in a massive dinoflagellate outbreak within 24 hours. He reported a similar...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Troylee]

See what the problem ALWAYS is to put it bluntly... There is not enough real proof EITHER way.
There is your experiences and there are others.

Spectrum and Dinoflagellate Outbreak?

Just had an interesting private conversation. This fellow was asking my opinion about using blue actinic lighting as the sole source. My reply - Theoretically possible, but my only experience in trying it resulted in a massive dinoflagellate outbreak within 24 hours. He reported a similar...

www.reef2reef.com

I agree! It was just a thought! This whole site is about leds or Dino’s anymore haha! I’ll have to give that a read! Didn’t know a thread had been started already… I love leds and was one of the first to build them and run them back in like 08 or something.. I run them again today! It’s a just observation I have currently and makes me wonder…

 

[oreo54]

I agree! It was just a thought! This whole site is about leds or Dino’s anymore haha! I’ll have to give that a read! Didn’t know a thread had been started already… I love leds and was one of the first to build them and run them back in like 08 or something.. I run them again today! It’s a just observation I have currently and makes me wonder…

That's old and has issues including Dana misdiagnose of the causative agent ..I forgot about that.
But THIS is funny in the light of this thread

I will answer this with my own experiences with dinos.
That will depend on the T5 bulbs (being "actinic" or not") he used on the T5 combo.
One can have dinos with halides too: 65K, 10K, 20K,...
The whole thing matters for dinos, not only lights.
And it comes and goes away for good.
Grandis.

 

[Steven Garland]

That video was actually a good watch. There was another Reef Bum video where the guest was battling a bacterial infection in some torches and he believed it was the lack of real "uv/violet" in newer reef lights. Switched the coral to another tank with heavy uv/violet spectra and the bacterial infection went away.

But honestly,why this horse is still being beaten to death is beyond me. If I could find a 75w/150w halide abd some XM/Ushio bulbs I would run MH ALL DAY EVERY DAY & use leds to supplement them.

 

[Second Shot]

I wish MH was the answer to Dino’s. I run MH and had Dino’s so bad I broke the tank down and quit the hobby for awhile.

 

[areefer01]

Switched the coral to another tank with heavy uv/violet spectra and the bacterial infection went away.

Switch tank. Maybe different corals, chemistry, lighting, and more. Probably not a good example. Dana has done field studies on UV and spectrum. Probably worth a read.

One day hobbyist will get along and not care what each other is using. One day...

 

[A. grandis]

That video was actually a good watch. There was another Reef Bum video where the guest was battling a bacterial infection in some torches and he believed it was the lack of real "uv/violet" in newer reef lights. Switched the coral to another tank with heavy uv/violet spectra and the bacterial infection went away.

But honestly,why this horse is still being beaten to death is beyond me. If I could find a 75w/150w halide abd some XM/Ushio bulbs I would run MH ALL DAY EVERY DAY & use leds to supplement them.

You need to ask Tullio. LOL! He is the one that started all over again... I truly believe there will be more to come about halides... He is the only one in the market that believes in selling halides' gears right now.

 

[A. grandis]

I wish MH was the answer to Dino’s. I run MH and had Dino’s so bad I broke the tank down and quit the hobby for awhile.

No, I don't think UV from halides should be addressed for such. I believe the whole spectrum of halide bulbs boost the immune system and stimulate the corals, naturally, when the light is used correctly, but also won't prevent any infection. Not for dinos, nor for bacteria control. It's a mistake to think like that.
Spectrum plays with cyanos and also some species of dinos, no matter the source, I would say.