A real "LED X halide" thread, scientifically. LOL!

[oreo54]

You knew this was coming but how much of that is due to tank husbandry and chemistry vs lighting? Devils advocate of course.

An interesting thing is he kept the mh's over his other tank.
There's a vid about that as well.
Your point though can be universally applied across many worked/ didn't work threads.

 

[JCOLE]

Maybe you missed my addition above?
Reefbums Peninsula tank run by Mitras only. Spectrum tailored to the radium by telegram.

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You still don't get it. Why are you showing me this? I know what LEDs can do. You are acting like I am saying LEDs cannot make great tanks and are not as good as halides. The only issue I have is with availability and that is mainly due to companies pushing nothing but LEDs down hobbyists throats.

 

[Thales]

Yes. Shouldn't everything we do be for the corals well being?

We routinely balance the well being of our animals with cost, time, effort, and pleasure.

Light bulb weekly. Come on you know this....

Nah.
In my neck of the woods folks prefer the phoenix 14k.
Someone said earlier that the 65k is the gold standard.

 

[Sixdinnersquid]

Point 1:

This is a great thread. Awesome discussion. I'd be curious if anyone here has read "The Innovator's Dilemma," where the author points out that when "good enough" performance is reached in one aspect of a product's function, other aspects take on greater importance. The incumbent technologies don't go away, but they're relegated to niche cases. It's possible that the transition from Metal Halides to LEDs is on the same track. But I've already gone too into the weeds on that, so I'll shut up on this.

 

[areefer01]

Your point though can be universally applied across many worked/ didn't work threads.

Without a doubt. That is why it really doesn't matter who is using what in my opinion.

 

[A. grandis]

The only issue I have is with availability and that is mainly due to companies pushing nothing but LEDs down hobbyists throats.

I was trying to hold... That indeed is the problem. Manipulation by the market!
Since the beginning comparing things as LEDs would be better than halides and T5s for any application. Then people invested their money on LEDs and felt like protecting it with their souls. Then online stores decided to say they "don't have room on their shelves for halides", making videos mocking halides. Then some YouTubers felt like saying that Radiums weren't being produced anymore... then more videos saying halides are "a thing from the past", "dead technology"... all this became the sermon to the newbies and they came against the veterans. But the veterans went to the war, the newbies didn't. And to make it worse we still have those who never had a reef tank in their entire lives and like to prove with internet waves what we know in the actual soul by experience of decades with out hands wet. Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[Sixdinnersquid]

Point 2:

The thread is long, so it's possible I've missed this point being made as I searched through: what is known about the specific wavelength bands in which corals' zooxanthellae absorb light? I know gobs of research has been done on this, but I also know that there are zillions of parameters and interrelationships. Metal halides may crank out a good blackbody spectrum, but how much of that - and where - gets sucked up by corals? Are LED manufacturers taking that knowledge into account when they make their product? I genuinely have no idea, because I'm super cheap and only buy old crap lighting or make my own crap lighting, and crap is crap.

 

[A. grandis]

Point 1:

This is a great thread. Awesome discussion. I'd be curious if anyone here has read "The Innovator's Dilemma," where the author points out that when "good enough" performance is reached in one aspect of a product's function, other aspects take on greater importance. The incumbent technologies don't go away, but they're relegated to niche cases. It's possible that the transition from Metal Halides to LEDs is on the same track. But I've already gone too into the weeds on that, so I'll shut up on this.

I love the dog in your avatar. More pics of that dog, please! Nice!
Please give him a treat for me!!

 

[Sixdinnersquid]

Point 3:

At risk of convoluting this further, have any of y'all seen the new laser-driven lighting that's hitting the automotive market? SLD Laser makes lasers on a chip that aim at a little phosphor target. SUPER small light source, and incredibly bright. I'm sure the spectrum isn't right for corals, but these things crank out a TON of light with loads of shimmer. (I don't have a relationship with SLD, but I nabbed a bunch of samples through work a few years ago.)

OK I'm done, heading back to the bleachers.

 

[A. grandis]

Point 2:

The thread is long, so it's possible I've missed this point being made as I searched through: what is known about the specific wavelength bands in which corals' zooxanthellae absorb light? I know gobs of research has been done on this, but I also know that there are zillions of parameters and interrelationships. Metal halides may crank out a good blackbody spectrum, but how much of that - and where - gets sucked up by corals? Are LED manufacturers taking that knowledge into account when they make their product? I genuinely have no idea, because I'm super cheap and only buy old crap lighting or make my own crap lighting, and crap is crap.

Corals utilize the whole spectrum from the sun.

 

[Spare time]

But do you have a data? "Some guy" is not a valuable source.

My tank with 3.5-4y led turned into algae factory and all corals stop growing (some completely disappeared). The problem was resolved simple by changing the light.


Can you give me a name of the LED that not expensive, not noisy, doesn't have a shadowing or disco ball effect with 1 fixture. Or something close to it.

I can try and find the thread on here. You could also simply look at google scholar and see the tiny shifts.


And no, you didn't get more algae because of a light shift. First off that's a logical fallacy, second, coral lights are DESIGNED to grow algae. What do you think zooxanthellae is?

As for finding an LED for you, I didn't say there is one that has every feature perfect at a lower price point. However, if you give me a price I can list a few options.

PS the only lights that don't have shadowing are blanket lights (panels). They arguably have shadowing too because in order for a light to not have shadows, it would need to orbit the tank.

 

[A. grandis]

Point 3:

At risk of convoluting this further, have any of y'all seen the new laser-driven lighting that's hitting the automotive market? SLD Laser makes lasers on a chip that aim at a little phosphor target. SUPER small light source, and incredibly bright. I'm sure the spectrum isn't right for corals, but these things crank out a TON of light with loads of shimmer. (I don't have a relationship with them, but I nabbed a bunch of samples through work a few years ago.)

OK I'm done, heading back to the bleachers.

If the spectrum isn't right we don't need to worry about that at all, right?
I was serious about that dog, by the way.

 

[Spare time]

Corals utilize the whole spectrum from the sun.

No they absolutely don't. This is such a ludicrous statement that I don't know where to begin on how to say that zooxanthellae doesn't use every wavelength emitted by the sun. You really think photosynthesis utilizes x-rays? Or microwaves? If you mean the typical range we look at in spectra graphs for corals, photosynthesis does not utilize every wavelength in an effective manner. List out the photopigments found in coral zooxanthellae, and find spectra graphs for each one.

 

[JCOLE]

We routinely balance the well being of our animals with cost, time, effort, and pleasure.


Nah.
In my neck of the woods folks prefer the phoenix 14k.
Someone said earlier that the 65k is the gold standard.

Mine is usually balanced with cost, time, effort and pain...

Oh yeah well my 20k can beat up your 14k...LOL

 

[A. grandis]

No they absolutely don't. This is such a ludicrous statement that I don't know where to begin on how to say that zooxanthellae doesn't use every wavelength emitted by the sun. You really think photosynthesis utilizes x-rays? Or microwaves? If you mean the typical range we look at in spectrographs for corals, photosynthesis does not utilize every color.

I had some conversations with Sanjay about that and we both agree with the fact that corals utilize the whole spectrum. That is one of the reasons why Sanjay would prefer metal halides over his tank than the LEDs. His main priorities are towards other preferences though, and that's why he is keeping the LEDs..

 

[A. grandis]

I'm still waiting for the dog's pics to help us to cool down the halides' heat in this thread, @strohrbaugh . LOL

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

I was trying to hold... That indeed is the problem. Manipulation by the market!
Since the beginning comparing things as LEDs would be better than halides and T5s for any application. Then people invested their money on LEDs and felt like protecting it with their souls. Then online stores decided to say they "don't have room on their shelves for halides", making videos mocking halides. Then some YouTubers felt like saying that Radiums weren't being produced anymore... then more videos saying halides are "a thing from the past", "dead technology"... all this became the sermon to the newbies and they came against the veterans. But the veterans went to the war, the newbies didn't. And to make it worse we still have those who never had a reef tank in their entire lives and like to prove with internet waves what we know in the actual soul by experience of decades with out hands wet. Sorry, couldn't resist.

I'm not going to say, marketing doesn't play a huge role in steering this ship we call a hobby.

But if what you say is true, then leds would never have become popular and marketing would've never got on board.

It's hard to wrap my head around any points you make without attaching an underlying egenda to it, and it seems quite obvious what that is.

Some individuals purchasing decisions are time stamped to what was popular when they entered the hobby. And as times change, some dig in their heels and stick to what they know while others are accepting to change.

I don't wish to argue Pepsi vs coke, they're both sugary drinks that have the same end goal. Applying that same logic to aquarium lighting shouldn't force a person to choose sides. It's futile and a waste of time and can be construde as tokenistic.

 

[A. grandis]

I'm not going to say, marketing doesn't play a huge role in steering this ship we call a hobby.

But if what you say is true, then leds would never have become popular and marketing would've never got on board.

It's hard to wrap my head around any points you make without attaching an underlying egenda to it, and it seems quite obvious what that is.

Some individuals purchasing decisions are time stamped to what was popular when they entered the hobby. And as times change, some dig in their heels and stick to what they know while others are accepting to change.

I don't wish to argue Pepsi vs coke, they're both sugary drinks that have the same end goal. Applying that same logic to aquarium lighting shouldn't force a person to choose sides. It's futile and a waste of time and can be construde as tokenistic.

Coke is probably selling more then Pepsi, but they both can be in the market. They are both sugary drinks, but I know people who prefers the Pepsi.

 

[JCOLE]

I'm not going to say, marketing doesn't play a huge role in steering this ship we call a hobby.

But if what you say is true, then leds would never have become popular and marketing would've never got on board.

It's hard to wrap my head around any points you make without attaching an underlying egenda to it, and it seems quite obvious what that is.

Some individuals purchasing decisions are time stamped to what was popular when they entered the hobby. And as times change, some dig in their heels and stick to what they know while others are accepting to change.

I don't wish to argue Pepsi vs coke, they're both sugary drinks that have the same end goal. Applying that same logic to aquarium lighting shouldn't force a person to choose sides. It's futile and a waste of time and can be construde as tokenistic.

I don't think it's an argument such as Coke vs Pepsi because they are both readily available on the shelf. Its comparable to Coke vs store name brand Cola. They taste similar with similar results, however, one is cheaper than the other. Now imagine if Coke started running a bunch of marketing and promotions, etc and the stores decided to start pulling the store name brand Cola off the shelf to benefit themselves and now your only option was Coca Cola.

 

[areefer01]

Coke is probably selling more then Pepsi, but they both can be in the market. They are both sugary drinks, but I know people who prefers the Pepsi.

Not to get us off track but some cola's sell more than others because they are better mixers. Rum and coke for example. Wild turkey with 7 up, etc.

Must love dogs, right?