A real "LED X halide" thread, scientifically. LOL!

[JCOLE]

Not to get us off track but some cola's sell more than others because they are better mixers. Rum and coke for example. Wild turkey with 7 up, etc.

Must love dogs, right?

I think that's the right track to be on right now

 

[A. grandis]

Not to get us off track but some cola's sell more than others because they are better mixers. Rum and coke for example. Wild turkey with 7 up, etc.

Must love dogs, right?

Yup, that's why the halide guys are crazy for their bulbs... they have gas in them.

 

[Sixdinnersquid]

I'm still waiting for the dog's pics to help us to cool down the halides' heat in this thread, @strohrbaugh . LOL

Sheesh, no kidding. Added the other dog too, just in case.

 

[Sixdinnersquid]

Okay so here's a paper written by Sanjay. He actually calls out the fact that zooxanthellal cells have specific light sensitivities according to the pigments that they contain. I'd prefer to see some actual absorption spectra before claiming that corals use all the light or that they use only specific narrow bands - my guess is that it's a matter of degree, but this is a decent starting point in case it matters. (It might not.) I guess it would be nice to find data on absorption spectra for those pigments, too, but it's late and the other dog is whining.

At any rate, this is enough for me to want to test the laser thingies some time. No promises.

 

[A. grandis]

Sheesh, no kidding. Added the other dog too, just in case.

OMG! So nice! Thanks for posting! Make sure you give them a treat for me!

 

[A. grandis]

Okay so here's a paper written by Sanjay. He actually calls out the fact that zooxanthellal cells have specific light sensitivities according to the pigments that they contain. I'd prefer to see some actual absorption spectra before claiming that corals use all the light or that they use only specific narrow bands - my guess is that it's a matter of degree, but this is a decent starting point in case it matters. (It might not.) I guess it would be nice to find data on absorption spectra for those pigments, too, but it's late and the other dog is whining.

At any rate, this is enough for me to want to test the laser thingies some time. No promises.

Ok.. problem is that most people concentrate their attention exclusively to the zooxanthellae's needs. I said the CORAL utilize the whole spectrum.

 

[BurgerFish]

However, if you give me a price I can list a few options.

I need to light 24x40x24 section (40 is height). With no shadowing and good shimmer.

Budget 800$.

First candidate is MH 250 or 400w with two reefbrite XHO led (Blue).

 

[njreefkeeper]

I think MH are the vinyl records of the reef world. They are fine, but the utility and convienience of other products is overwhelming compared to the benefits that some people see. To bring them back into the mainstream it is going to need to be robustly demonstrated that MH have significant benefits over other products.

They do have significant benefits. Show me the most affordable way to light a 96”x36”x30” SPS dominated aquarium.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

I don't think it's an argument such as Coke vs Pepsi because they are both readily available on the shelf. Its comparable to Coke vs store name brand Cola. They taste similar with similar results, however, one is cheaper than the other. Now imagine if Coke started running a bunch of marketing and promotions, etc and the stores decided to start pulling the store name brand Cola off the shelf to benefit themselves and now your only option was Coca Cola.

Unless the goal is to nitpick analogies. Don't fall victim of getting hung up and focused on the example provided.

Point being, debating the best way to delivery photons to coral is a waste of effort unless the agenda is create division just for the sake of it.

And don't feed me the line that if marketing favored MH, more people would own them and there'd be more availability.

Marketing can only take it so far, it's the will of the majority that push marketing in a particular direction.

regardless if you want to accept it or not, LEDs seem to check more boxes, and MH have been given the moniker of antiquated. And if you want to try and reverse that, it will take some breakthrough. But honestly I think that boat has sailed. Any effort to say otherwise is a losing battle.

 

[areefer01]

They do have significant benefits. Show me the most affordable way to light a 96”x36”x30” SPS dominated aquarium.

Off the top of my head you could check out the ReeFi 2.0 Pro which comes in at around $480 US dollars per kit. How it relates to say a similar Watt HM single solution I can't say as I've personally never done the math. Entry price vs maintenance (bulb) vs life span (hours) of led.

All things to consider when we are talking affordability.

 

[oreo54]

Unless the goal is to nitpick analogies. Don't fall victim of getting hung up and focused on the example provided.

Point being, debating the best way to delivery photons to coral is a waste of effort unless the agenda is create division just for the sake of it.

And don't feed me the line that if marketing favored MH, more people would own them and there'd be more availability.

Marketing can only take it so far, it's the will of the majority that push marketing in a particular direction.

regardless if you want to accept it or not, LEDs seem to check more boxes, and MH have been given the moniker of antiquated. And if you want to try and reverse that, it will take some breakthrough. But honestly I think that boat has sailed. Any effort to say otherwise is a losing battle.

You forgot one more point..

Mr. Tetsuo Takeshima, Director of Enoshima Aquarium

“We had been looking for a high-quality light source alternative to metal-halide lamps since manufacturing and importing mercury products will be restricted from 2020 based on the Minamata Mercury Convention signed in 2013.

KYOCERA Develops World’s First Full-Spectrum LED Aquarium Lighting | Nyheter | KYOCERA Norway

norway.kyocera.com

Now this doesn't imply a full ban but I "predict" MH's 250W or less will be the first to have restricted availability
or be all Chinese.
400 or greater have a longer shelf life since the market is larger.

As markets shrink cost/bulb will increase.

 

[A. grandis]

The MH bans are old rumors... It's been in the lines here for more than a decade... All halide and T5 manufacturers in EU have already said they won't stop making their lamps! The "ban" will be only for household lamps in EU. Specialized lamps like for aquariums and horticulture will be produced. Maybe your "prediction" is more like a wish. ReefBrite also said halides aren't going anywhere. Hamilton said they will be producing their lamps for long time, no worries... I think we should stop making such claims or spreading rumors like that. I will believe only if that happens. They should ban LEDs then... The number of plastic trash that doesn't disintegrate for decades and represent a huge number in our world is endless.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Unless the goal is to nitpick analogies. Don't fall victim of getting hung up and focused on the example provided.

Point being, debating the best way to delivery photons to coral is a waste of effort unless the agenda is create division just for the sake of it.

And don't feed me the line that if marketing favored MH, more people would own them and there'd be more availability.

Marketing can only take it so far, it's the will of the majority that push marketing in a particular direction.

regardless if you want to accept it or not, LEDs seem to check more boxes, and MH have been given the moniker of antiquated. And if you want to try and reverse that, it will take some breakthrough. But honestly I think that boat has sailed. Any effort to say otherwise is a losing battle.

Sister - long time no see!

Not really going to dive into this nonsense... as most of it is nonsense form people that confuse opinion and science.... that is "reefing" I suppose.

I will only say that it took me a long time to hop onto the LED train... the first generation or two were absolutely terrible. They were ugly, not very efficient and not very reliable. Now that they are viable for growing coral I use them. I still favor the look of a good crisp halide - but can't be bothered with the heat, bulb replacement, burns, inrush current, buzzing ballasts, etc. They just don't have a place in my reef, as much as I love the color rendering.

 

[oreo54]

They do have significant benefits. Show me the most affordable way to light a 96”x36”x30” SPS dominated aquarium.

Technically that is one benefit..
Soo do you think 3 x 400W mh's is sufficient?

Currently having a hard time finding reflectors so I'll just use an out of stock one:
https://www.coralvue.com/lumen-bright-large-metal-halide-reflector
$115 each = $345

400W Metal Halide Digital Ballast

The perfect ballast for Reef Brite Metal Halide Pendants and many others. Compatible with all 400W metal halide lamps. Digital Lightweight Connects directly to Reef Brite Reflectors Digital ballasts are easily the best ballasts you can find for metal halide lamps. The digital processor inside...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

Ballast $240 each = $720

Radium 20K Single End Bulb

Why does BRS recommend this? Radium bulbs are the most sought after single ended bulb in the reef aquarium hobby. Many successful tanks that run metal halide lights use the radium bulbs for their impeccable track record in the hobby. Unique crisp white color with a strong blue tint More natural...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

Bulbs $83 each = $249
Tricky part.. since it is sort of an intangeable but assuming most but the very poorest leds would last AT LEAST 3 years.
3 year bulb replacement $83 x 3 x 3 =$747
Assuming no ballasts die in 3 years or a bad bulb.

........................................total..........$2061

LED Viparspectra $160 each
Use 12 @100% output.
1320W at full for 12
As I stated earlier and below one could probably get away w/ blue 100% white 50% for a wattage of 990W
...................................... total..........$1920

Now 3 fixtures sure is a lot easier to deal with then 12.
There is the color issues
I'd probably guarantee one bb driver will die in 3 yrs.. Add $160 and one spare driver
after replacing the other.

Some think it is unreasonable to compare a radium bulb to a black box spectrum.
Needs proof.

For comparison, lets upgrade..
4 Photon 48" V2's $750 each.
....................................... total ...............$3000

240W max each = 960W which is comparable to the 1200W of the 3 radiums.
Extras one gets.. spectrum control, timer-dimmer.

Your best argument is the fact that every bulb replacement is a new light
An argument favoring leds is that because of better focus you "may" be able to do with less wattage on the LED.
From what i've seen nowhere but for large sw tanks does this seem to be not true.
You should be able to get way w/ 800W of leds for 1200W of mh's
nope not considering heat..ect ...ect

Adjust costs as you see fit..Chinese bulbs, magnetic DIY ballasts ect

Bottom line though is what are an ind. needs/wants? Could include all sorts of "intangeables" like no hanging, color tuning, just plain looks in a few dimensions, ect.

"Possibly" cheapest 2 8 tube t5's 864W
Not the best for 30" deep tank though.

VIVOSUN T5 Grow Lights 4 ft, 432W(8 X 54W), T5 Light Fixture Bulbs, 6500K HO Fluorescent Tubes, High-Output T5 Bulbs for Indoor Plants, UL Listed, 8 Bulbs, 8 ft Power Cord, 2 Hanging Cables

VIVOSUN 6500K T5 HO Fluorescent Grow Light Fixture 4FT 8 Lamps

vivosun.com

2 @ $199
16 bulbs ave $20 each $320
I'll use 18 months for replacement $320
......................... total............ $1038


Radium spectrum (grey squarish curve) vs Vipar bb (rough est) at full.
What you "see" is another story.
Relative values:

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

Sister - long time no see!

I was surprised to read your name in a reply. Hello old friend.

 

[JCOLE]

Unless the goal is to nitpick analogies.

I wasn't nitpicking. I was using a better analogy that fit this scenario.

Point being, debating the best way to delivery photons to coral is a waste of effort unless the agenda is create division just for the sake of it.

I agree. I never said LED is better than MH or vice versa. I have LED along with MH on my system and I enjoy both.

Marketing can only take it so far, it's the will of the majority that push marketing in a particular direction.

Who's the marketing and who's the majority? I guess that's my issue. If the majority(newer hobbyists getting in the hobby) turn to the only marketing geared toward them(big name aquarium company) and all they see and hear is LED, Blue lights, Orange Glasses, LED, Blue lights, etc then that is all they really know. You can't say marketing wouldn't have stopped the MH decline because you really don't know.

and MH have been given the moniker of antiquated.

By who I wonder?

 

[JCOLE]

Technically that is one benefit..
Soo do you think 3 x 400W mh's is sufficient?

Currently having a hard time finding reflectors so I'll just use an out of stock one:
https://www.coralvue.com/lumen-bright-large-metal-halide-reflector
$115 each = $345

400W Metal Halide Digital Ballast

The perfect ballast for Reef Brite Metal Halide Pendants and many others. Compatible with all 400W metal halide lamps. Digital Lightweight Connects directly to Reef Brite Reflectors Digital ballasts are easily the best ballasts you can find for metal halide lamps. The digital processor inside...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

Ballast $240 each = $720

Radium 20K Single End Bulb

Why does BRS recommend this? Radium bulbs are the most sought after single ended bulb in the reef aquarium hobby. Many successful tanks that run metal halide lights use the radium bulbs for their impeccable track record in the hobby. Unique crisp white color with a strong blue tint More natural...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

Bulbs $83 each = $249
Tricky part.. since it is sort of an intangeable but assuming most but the very poorest leds would last AT LEAST 3 years.
3 year bulb replacement $83 x 3 x 3 =$747
Assuming no ballasts die in 3 years or a bad bulb.

........................................total..........$2061

LED Viparspectra $160 each
Use 12 @100% output.
1320W at full for 12
As I stated earlier and below one could probably get away w/ blue 100% white 50% for a wattage of 990W
...................................... total..........$1920

Now 3 fixtures sure is a lot easier to deal with then 12.
There is the color issues
I'd probably guarantee one bb driver will die in 3 yrs.. Add $160 and one spare driver
after replacing the other.

Some think it is unreasonable to compare a radium bulb to a black box spectrum.
Needs proof.

For comparison, lets upgrade..
4 Photon 48" V2's $750 each.
....................................... total ...............$3000

240W max each = 960W which is comparable to the 1200W of the 3 radiums.
Extras one gets.. spectrum control, timer-dimmer.

Your best argument is the fact that every bulb replacement is a new light
An argument favoring leds is that because of better focus you "may" be able to do with less wattage on the LED.
From what i've seen nowhere but for large sw tanks does this seem to be not true.
You should be able to get way w/ 800W of leds for 1200W of mh's
nope not considering heat..ect ...ect

Adjust costs as you see fit..Chinese bulbs, magnetic DIY ballasts ect

Bottom line though is what are an ind. needs/wants? Could include all sorts of "intangeables" like no hanging, color tuning, just plain looks in a few dimensions, ect.

"Possibly" cheapest 2 8 tube t5's 864W
Not the best for 30" deep tank though.

VIVOSUN T5 Grow Lights 4 ft, 432W(8 X 54W), T5 Light Fixture Bulbs, 6500K HO Fluorescent Tubes, High-Output T5 Bulbs for Indoor Plants, UL Listed, 8 Bulbs, 8 ft Power Cord, 2 Hanging Cables

VIVOSUN 6500K T5 HO Fluorescent Grow Light Fixture 4FT 8 Lamps

vivosun.com

2 @ $199
16 bulbs ave $20 each $320
I'll use 18 months for replacement $320
......................... total............ $1038


Radium spectrum (grey squarish curve) vs Vipar bb (rough est) at full.
What you "see" is another story.
Relative values:

It's not that Viparspectra spectrum isn't comparable. It's that the aquarium companies are not selling CBB or pushing them, now are they? No, they are pushing the high dollar lights. What happens when Amazon and Ebay stop selling them?

Now do your math with the 4 photons after 3 years when you have to "upgrade" or replace the lights? 4 new lights or 4 new bulbs. Which scenario is cheaper to the consumer and which is more money for the supplier?

 

[Thales]

I was trying to hold... That indeed is the problem. Manipulation by the market!
Since the beginning comparing things as LEDs would be better than halides and T5s for any application. Then people invested their money on LEDs and felt like protecting it with their souls. Then online stores decided to say they "don't have room on their shelves for halides", making videos mocking halides. Then some YouTubers felt like saying that Radiums weren't being produced anymore... then more videos saying halides are "a thing from the past", "dead technology"... all this became the sermon to the newbies and they came against the veterans. But the veterans went to the war, the newbies didn't. And to make it worse we still have those who never had a reef tank in their entire lives and like to prove with internet waves what we know in the actual soul by experience of decades with out hands wet. Sorry, couldn't resist.

I think that is missing a major part of the story. LED's work. We were skeptical of them for years, but the evidence that you can grow bomber coral tanks under LED became impossible to ignore. The practical benifits of LED (size, heat, controllability, color changing, no bulb changes, no heavy hot ballast, etc) make them much more attractive to most reefers over MH given that both grow coral just fine. Of course that is going to get recommended to newbies. Space for MH on the shelves for vendors is a real world consideration. Of course compainies are going to market all that. There is no BIG LED manipulating the market in nefarious ways.
The same happened with beckett downdraft skimmers and needle wheel skimmers. The benefits of convienience of one ended up beating out the other, and both do the job just fine - and yes there are still folks out that that swear that beckett are the magic in their sauce. And good for them. That's how markets work, there is o BIG NEEDLEwheel manipulating the market.
The Aquaclear and maxijet power heads have been mostly replaced by other water motion devices, but some people still swear by them, but the replacements generally move enough water, and have more control options tha off and on.
You can still get MH, Beckett, and Aquaclear power heads. They are like the vinyl records of the reefing world. Some folks love love love them and that is great and fine and wonderful, but convincing folks to go back to them from current offerings is going to take some real compelling and impactful evidence.
On the idea of MH not being produced anymore - this was real. We used 86 1000 watt MH over the big reef at Steinhart, and Ushio did indeed stop making one of the bulbs they were using and said they were going to stop most of them. It wasn't a made up scare tactic from online personalities, it was actually happening.

Corals utilize the whole spectrum from the sun.

That isn't true though - Some produce a natural sun screen in part to block uv and water filters out some wavelengths.

I had some conversations with Sanjay about that and we both agree with the fact that corals utilize the whole spectrum. That is one of the reasons why Sanjay would prefer metal halides over his tank than the LEDs. His main priorities are towards other preferences though, and that's why he is keeping the LEDs..

To many times when people invoke someone else and say what they said, the situation is often more complicated that what is represented. Again, water filters out wavelengths, so 5m down, nothing is utilizing the whole spectrum from the sun. This is a broad generality and I would be suprised that Sanjay thinks that.

I don't think it's an argument such as Coke vs Pepsi because they are both readily available on the shelf. Its comparable to Coke vs store name brand Cola. They taste similar with similar results, however, one is cheaper than the other. Now imagine if Coke started running a bunch of marketing and promotions, etc and the stores decided to start pulling the store name brand Cola off the shelf to benefit themselves and now your only option was Coca Cola.

Coke would be really happy and there are other sodas on the market that are readily available. There are lots of sodas that are no longer available or hard to get. But the analogy doesn't really work, because all things are not really equal between MH and LED they way they are between coke and pepsi.


This has been a useful discussion for me. Thanks everyone. I look forward to any compelling evidence that we should change back to MH.

 

[Thales]

Sister - long time no see!

Not really going to dive into this nonsense... as most of it is nonsense form people that confuse opinion and science.... that is "reefing" I suppose.

I will only say that it took me a long time to hop onto the LED train... the first generation or two were absolutely terrible. They were ugly, not very efficient and not very reliable. Now that they are viable for growing coral I use them. I still favor the look of a good crisp halide - but can't be bothered with the heat, bulb replacement, burns, inrush current, buzzing ballasts, etc. They just don't have a place in my reef, as much as I love the color rendering.

HE LIVES! And this is the right post to try to end the discussion on.

 

[JCOLE]

This has been a useful discussion for me. Thanks everyone. I look forward to any compelling evidence that we should change back to MH.

And for me as well. I really enjoy the discussion. Feels good to not be in an echo chamber.

I for one am not trying to get anyone to change back to halides. I am in the middle of all of this. We have some on the far side of LEDs and some on the far side of MH. I enjoy both and wish MH was more readily avaliable thats all. I wish there were more companies like Reef Brite that would incorporate MH into their lighting to give people the option. It is what is is though.

I snapped this last night. You can clearly see I am not against LED.