A real "LED X halide" thread, scientifically. LOL!

[Spare time]

Why so much love and passion for metal halides? I’ve only used leds but it seems like if you wanted to be so passionate about a light then I feel like t5 would be the best choice. Considering most people have to supplement their lighting with t5 why not go full fanboy for t5 instead?

Exactly. Its such a bizarre phenomena. In what other hobby are people spending hours of their day trying to tell others that their lightbulb is superior and that everyone else is a fool?

 

[oreo54]

Utility and convivence, sure. But what about cost? Depending on the size of someone's tank and what they are keeping could potentially cost them $10k or more in LEDs. When that is eventually your only light option then what are you left with?

2 "black boxes run at 100% is the equiv (possibly more) than 1 250W metal halide bulb,ballast and fixture.

What is the cost difference?
You can get the Vipars WITH timer for $160 each.

Yea there is the white thing but that is sort of a choice.

Spectra SE 24" Metal Halide T5 Fixture

2 Foot Giesemann Spectra 1x Single Ended Metal Halide by 4x24w T5 Fixture Use either 250w or 400w Single Ended Metal Halide Lamps. Metal halide ballast sold separately. BRS suggests the Luxcore Electronic 250w or 400w Ballast. Giesemann has been known for making high-quality light fixtures...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

A 24" using a 250w bulb is, ON SALE, $748 PLUS you need to buy a ballast AND bulbs.
Add $300
362 total watts w 4 24" tubes, 1 250mh.
Ignoring the 1.5yr replacement cycle for bulbs of about $140.
For most I suspect it is more in the 1 yr range.
equiv. to 1 black box every 1.5 years.

$1048 will buy you 6 1/2 black boxes
Total wattage from 400-750 watts depending on using some white to all the white channel.

Point is cost is relative to needs/wants more so than tech..

 

[IKD]

Some MH users do the same thing though right?
I am confused why some MH fans feel like victims.

Kinda agree with you.
I wish these MH posts stood on their own merits without trying to bash another method (LED) to prove their worth. I hope MH stays around because variety of options benefits the community overall and it’s certainly a proven method.

 

[JCOLE]

Budget. Then start the research and design to fall within. This also includes the animals one wants to keep to include maintenance and what not to keep it running.

There are enough light kits out there regardless of bulb or diode to meet everyone's needs to be successful. Sure lighting a 110" 430 US gallon tank with ATI Straton Pros could run a hobbyist several thousand dollars but similar numbers could be had at a fraction of the cost if one used say a ReefFi or other product.

Note I'm not pushing any specific light or type of light as that doesn't matter. However when one asks what options are there to limit cost then living within ones means is the answer. Budget, research, and design. Ignore the noise from social media saying you need ABC to be successful.

Budget. Why didn't I think of that?

That's my point. If it continues down this road and the only option is high priced LEDs because other light sources have been phased out then having a larger tank will be hard for most people. When it comes down to that budgeting isn't an option for most people.

Again, I am not against LEDs and I am not a fan boy for MH. I have more LEDs than MH on my 500 gallon. I just see where this is going and what is driving all of it.

 

[A. grandis]

I don't know of any metal halide manufacturer for the hobby talking down on LEDs, but basically most major LED manufacturers and some online stores will use halides and T5s to promote their products as "better". That is what started/boosted all this arguments among us. The fact that halides are falling out of the market isn't because people don't want to use them, but the opposite, when most halide users are thinking they won't have it available and just accepting the marketing game they are playing.
What's the truth, when Hamilton and ReefBrite say the demand is very high?
Halide and T5 manufacturers don't sponsor any channel, don't advertise and don't fight to publish comparisons with LEDs. Would that be able to change the market if they did so?

 

[oreo54]

I don't know of any metal halide manufacturer for the hobby talking down on LEDs, but basically most major LED manufacturers and some online stores will use halides and T5s to promote their products as "better". That is what started/boosted all this arguments among us. The fact that halides are falling out of the market isn't because people don't want to use them, but the opposite, when most halide users are thinking they won't have it available and just accepting the marketing game they are playing.
What's the truth, when Hamilton and ReefBrite say the demand is very high?
Halide and T5 manufacturers don't sponsor any channel, don't advertise and don't fight to publish comparisons with LEDs. Would that be able to change the market if they did so?

Define high.. Higher than the depressed state it was in?

Or inflated because people are buying cases of bulbs out of fear?

Give me data just not "marketspeek"...

 

[JCOLE]

2 "black boxes run at 100% is the equiv (possibly more) than 1 250W metal halide bulb,ballast and fixture.

What is the cost difference?
You can get the Vipars WITH timer for $160 each.

Yea there is the white thing but that is sort of a choice.

Spectra SE 24" Metal Halide T5 Fixture

2 Foot Giesemann Spectra 1x Single Ended Metal Halide by 4x24w T5 Fixture Use either 250w or 400w Single Ended Metal Halide Lamps. Metal halide ballast sold separately. BRS suggests the Luxcore Electronic 250w or 400w Ballast. Giesemann has been known for making high-quality light fixtures...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

A 24" using a 250w bulb is, ON SALE, $748 PLUS you need to buy a ballast AND bulbs.
Add $300
362 total watts w 4 24" tubes, 1 250mh.
Ignoring the 1.5yr replacement cycle for bulbs of about $140.
For most I suspect it is more in the 1 yr range.
equiv. to 1 black box every 1.5 years.

$1048 will buy you 6 1/2 black boxes
Total wattage from 400-750 watts depending on using some white to all the white channel.

Point is cost is relative to needs/wants more so than tech..

Are you comparing viparspectra Chinese black boxes to a 250w Radium? That's not a fair comparison if you ask me. I have a couple viparspectras over a tank so not hating on them. That's just not an apples to apples comparison.

Also, I purchased a new 400w system with a Radium bulb and ballast from Hamilton for $249. 2 Viparspectras or a 400w Radium?

Again, if we are comparing cost then yes CBBs are good. I know I used to run nothing but MarsAqua and grew Acros just fine. I now have 8 SBREEF lights over my tank. However, does BRS sell Viparspectra? The answer is no. They sell $1000 Radions. Now do your comparison with those against my halides on a 500 gallon tank and try to make it make sense.

 

[Semisonyx]

I went from 3 250w radiums over my 180 to 3 viparspectra, both supplemented with t5. At the time, I committed to running the vipars for 2 years so that they would pay for themselves in what I would have spent on bulb changes. I never noticed a decrease in growth or coloration. I was using way less wattage than before, and there was no heating the whole room like the MH.

At the 2 year mark, I switched to 3 Philips Coral Care g2 for no reason other than frag money burning a hole in my pocket and BRS having a sale on them. The way they put out a blanket of light is extraordinary, and I still supplement with t5 to prevent shading under the colonies that they’ve grown.

Out of dumb frustration from this thread, I went into the attic and cleaned up a Lumenarc mini reflector, 250w Hamilton 20k, and a luxcore ballast. I took down the middle PCCg2 and replaced it with the halide. What immediately struck me is that the color setting I have for my PCCg2 perfectly matched the color of the Hammy 20k. Next, I’m hard pressed to tell a difference between the halide and LEDs. The waterflow on the surface and the blanket of light from the LEDs and t5s mute the shimmer to where its all about the same. I think I’d be fooling myself to say I see a difference in iridescence, phosphorescence, or color rendering that makes me want to go back permanently. However, out of genuine interest, I’ll run the halide for a few weeks to see if I see any marked improvement over what I would normally see in the center of the aquarium.

 

[areefer01]

Budget. Why didn't I think of that?

Apologies if it seems I was being a wise **** towards you. I wasn't. I was honestly just saying budget in general terms. There are options available in either format if one is willing to put in some time to do a bit of research. This you know so I mean no disrespect.

Again sorry if you thought I was being a poo head to you.

 

[JCOLE]

Apologies if it seems I was being a wise **** towards you. I wasn't. I was honestly just saying budget in general terms. There are options available in either format if one is willing to put in some time to do a bit of research. This you know so I mean no disrespect.

Again sorry if you thought I was being a poo head to you.

No worries. All good. I was just being sarcastic.

I agree with what you said though. I get the budgeting aspect of it. Who are we kidding though. I tell everyone to double their budget when planning a system.

 

[JCOLE]

That isn't a mainstream tank. Right now, for deep tanks, MH is a good option but LED's are catching up.

The cost of replacing MH bulbs is real, and you have to do it every 8-12 months if you want to keep spectrum and intensity stable. If you have 10 fixtures that's rougnly 1000 bucks for every light change. At that rate, the price is almost the same whichever way you go - assuming you are using high bay fixtures for your MH.

The other cost is actually changing those bulbs that often, which regardless of what they said in the video is a PITA as you get into bigger systems. On the big reef at Steinhart, we have 86 1000 watt bulbs to change ever 8 months. I would have much rather had LEDS.

100% agree with the PITA part. That is the reason I went LED and halides instead of T5 and halides. I would need 16 T5s and 4 halides on my tank. I wasn't looking forward to changing 20 bulbs on the tank.

The cost isn't the same though. I could have purchased 10 of the 400w Hamilton systems with Radium bulbs for a total of $2500. Radions would have been $10k. What are the replacements on the LED fixtures? 5 years? So 4 more years of bulb changes puts you at $6500. At 5 years you are buying all new LED lights again at $10k instead of just bulbs.

I can't help but to think the suppliers don't consider the constant sale of LED fixtures vs just bulbs. Seems to me the money is in the fixtures and not the chump change made from the bulbs.

 

[Thales]

100% agree with the PITA part. That is the reason I went LED and halides instead of T5 and halides. I would need 16 T5s and 4 halides on my tank. I wasn't looking forward to changing 20 bulbs on the tank.

The cost isn't the same though. I could have purchased 10 of the 400w Hamilton systems with Radium bulbs for a total of $2500. Radions would have been $10k. What are the replacements on the LED fixtures? 5 years? So 4 more years of bulb changes puts you at $6500. At 5 years you are buying all new LED lights again at $10k instead of just bulbs.

Cost depends on all the choices in both LED and MH.
Which reflector and which ballast came with you hammy set up for 250?

I can't help but to think the suppliers don't consider the constant sale of LED fixtures vs just bulbs. Seems to me the money is in the fixtures and not the chump change made from the bulbs.

I think they do, and that because of all the things (not as hot, no bulb changes, no exploding bulb possibility, hard to burn yourself, sleek, controlability, etc) they sell way way more LED fixtures than they were selling MH fixtures. Smaller foot print, harder to break, less weight to ship and store. All the reasons LED's are popular.

AND, the MH market is dwindling for all applications and the problem with putting mercury into the environment.

 

[areefer01]

The cost isn't the same though. I could have purchased 10 of the 400w Hamilton systems with Radium bulbs for a total of $2500. Radions would have been $10k. What are the replacements on the LED fixtures? 5 years? So 4 more years of bulb changes puts you at $6500. At 5 years you are buying all new LED lights again at $10k instead of just bulbs.

But what if there was a LED that was half the cost of the Radion(s) but performed equal to or better than?

Just playing devils advocate because I do hear what you are saying.

 

[BurgerFish]

LED manufactures will provide a life expectancy in an hour format but even then we are talking 20,000 hours or so if not more

Yep. And they also will provide a warranty, normally 1 (one) year. It's about 3k hours.

Do you have a data of spectrum and brightness change in popular aquarium led over a 5 years?

Who uses what is none of my business nor does it matter to me

We're on the forum, to simply discuss and share our options, no?


I remember all marketing bs about LED:
20-50k hours
10x less power consumption
Right spectrum
No heat
You can control the channels
Less expensive no bulb change every year
Etc

In the reality:
1y warranty
Big spectrum and brightness change after 3y
Shadowing issues
Disco ball effects
You need more fixtures to reduce shadowing, power consumption rise
Expensive fixtures, replacement is much more expensive than changing the bulbs every year
Hard to service or repair
Settings make the things more complicated for corals
Cooled with fans and noisy
Unnatural shimmer
...

My next light will be MH with blue led.

 

[Spare time]

Budget. Why didn't I think of that?

That's my point. If it continues down this road and the only option is high priced LEDs because other light sources have been phased out then having a larger tank will be hard for most people. When it comes down to that budgeting isn't an option for most people.

Again, I am not against LEDs and I am not a fan boy for MH. I have more LEDs than MH on my 500 gallon. I just see where this is going and what is driving all of it.

Not all LED lights are that cost. Its just most of the well known ones are pricey. You can light a 24 inch cube easily under $100

 

[Spare time]

Yep. And they also will provide a warranty, normally 1 (one) year. It's about 3k hours.

Do you have a data of spectrum and brightness change in popular aquarium led over a 5 years?



We're on the forum, to simply discuss and share our options, no?


I remember all marketing bs about LED:
20-50k hours
10x less power consumption
Right spectrum
No heat
You can control the channels
Less expensive no bulb change every year
Etc

In the reality:
1y warranty
Big spectrum and brightness change after 3y
Shadowing issues
Disco ball effects
You need more fixtures to reduce shadowing, power consumption rise
Expensive fixtures, replacement is much more expensive than changing the bulbs every year
Hard to service or repair
Settings make the things more complicated for corals
Cooled with fans and noisy
Unnatural shimmer
...

My next light will be MH with blue led.

It isn't that big of a spectrum shift. Some guy on here who knows LED's very well at a mechanical level mentioned its a slight shift but not that big of a deal if I remember his post correctly (I'll try to find it). A wide spectrum LED light won't have issues with this unless the shift is utterly dramatic. Fixtures are not expensive, only the popular big brand name ones. Disco ball effect depends on the LED unit and is not in all LED lights, same with shadowing and shimmer. Saying the shimmer is (unnatural) is sort of a bad argument because it varies by every single light and "natural" is a bad term in itself in the hobby. Warranties depend on the manufacturer and to say then are all 1 year is just false. Once again, the fan noise depends on the brand. I can't hear mine.


You need to stop making catch-all statements. That is a huge issue here on reef2reef. You can say most, some, lots, because otherwise you are making a statement declaring all fixtures in all circumstances to be x.

 

[JCOLE]

Cost depends on all the choices in both LED and MH.
Which reflector and which ballast came with you hammy set up for 250?

I think they do, and that because of all the things (not as hot, no bulb changes, no exploding bulb possibility, hard to burn yourself, sleek, controlability, etc) they sell way way more LED fixtures than they were selling MH fixtures. Smaller foot print, harder to break, less weight to ship and store. All the reasons LED's are popular.

AND, the MH market is dwindling for all applications and the problem with putting mercury into the environment.

I 100% get what you're saying but it still doesn't make me feel any better about it.... LOL!

 

[JCOLE]

But what if there was a LED that was half the cost of the Radion(s) but performed equal to or better than?

Just playing devils advocate because I do hear what you are saying.

Yes! I guess that's the main thing here. A 400w Radium is one of the Cadillac of MH so compare that to a cadillac LED which is Radion. Your looking at 2 of the XR30s for the 400w Radium. That's a $2k cost compared to a $250 cost which I paid.

Again, it's the availability. If they want to sell Radions for $$$$ then that's cool as thats the free market. But don't take away everyone's choices to the point where if they want a Cadillac in lighting then they are taking out a second mortgage.

 

[JCOLE]

Not all LED lights are that cost. Its just most of the well known ones are pricey. You can light a 24 inch cube easily under $100

I get that and feel everyone should have options for any lighting they want. LED is perfect for a small cube where a halide is not the best option. Now look at a 500 gallon peninsula filled with Acros and $100 in LED lighting isn't feasible. However, MH allows you to not break the bank on lighting with great end results.

 

[oreo54]

That's a $2k cost compared to a $250 cost which I paid.

You can't compare " retail" to a flea market find.
400w mh ballast at BRS is $250.
At least when I put the bb vs mh/t5 I used commercial costs.
Anyways.