A real "LED X halide" thread, scientifically. LOL!

[djf91]

I'm with you 95% Daniel, not sure I can go with you on the comment about the PC bulbs... [Kidding!]

You should check out John Coppolinos kitchen nano from way back the day. I believe it was lit with just PC and looked incredible.

 

[Wasabiroot]

Weren't a lot of high end Giesemann fixtures in the 90s and 2000s just as expensive? Like 800-2500 dollars? The argument from cost isn't a good one - I remember Jake mentioning on Reef Therapy it was a misconception MH was by default cheaper and the fixtures were just as pricy. Granted, I wasn't around in the hobby at the time.
I've always loved the look of halides but I can't see this thread doing something the other 400 threads on the same topic didn't address. I don't think there's much argument that people are fine with anyone using what makes them happy. The anti-MH conspiracy is I think largely overblown. It's kind of like CRT monitors. They have superior color rendition, but they're hard to find because they're old technology with some narrow use cases. Sometimes old stuff is just hard to find.

 

[A. grandis]

Weren't a lot of high end Giesemann fixtures in the 90s and 2000s just as expensive? Like 800-2500 dollars? The argument from cost isn't a good one - I remember Jake mentioning on Reef Therapy it was a misconception MH was by default cheaper and the fixtures were just as pricy. Granted, I wasn't around in the hobby at the time.
I've always loved the look of halides but I can't see this thread doing something the other 400 threads on the same topic didn't address. I don't think there's much argument that people are fine with anyone using what makes them happy. The anti-MH conspiracy is I think largely overblown. It's kind of like CRT monitors. They have superior color rendition, but they're hard to find because they're old technology with some narrow use cases. Sometimes old stuff is just hard to find.

The comparison Jake in that particular session was referring to was specifically to the European fixtures: the Giesemann, AquaMedic, etc..
Here in US we had a whole system, like the Hamilton Cebu with all the bulbs and ballasts, for less than $1000.00 up to recently. That fixture would outlast you and me, if properly cared for. There was no upgrades every year and things like that... Coverage was true to their statements and corals would safely grow out of the tanks trying to reach those bulbs! LOL!

The prices below were displayed until last year when they were discontinued all together.

Hamilton Cebu Sun Lighting System – 60 Inch – 14,000K Metal Halide and 4 x 80 Watt T5 HO Actinics – LawsonAquatics

www.lawsonaquatics.net

Store Lighting Supplies Metal Halide Fixtures 48 Inch And Shorter

Buy online 4 Ft Hamilton Deluxe Cebu Sun lighting fixture with 2x250W 20k Mogul Base MH with electronic MH ballasts + 4x54W HO Actinic T5 + Led Moonlights.

www.customaquatic.com

These are actual prices from not too long ago, 2022:

Search results for: 'hamilton cebu sun'

Your #1 source for top brand aquarium supplies for aquariums. We offer free shipping, price matching, fantastic technical and customer support.

www.aquariumspecialty.com

If you contact the metal halide manufacturers, except for ReefBrite, they will tell you the main reason why they stopped their production of halide gear is because of the LED market. I don't blame only the LED market for getting so agressive, but mainly (and I've said that to most halide manufacturers already!) the lack of advertising their products. It is what it is, I know.

 

[JCOLE]

Weren't a lot of high end Giesemann fixtures in the 90s and 2000s just as expensive? Like 800-2500 dollars? The argument from cost isn't a good one - I remember Jake mentioning on Reef Therapy it was a misconception MH was by default cheaper and the fixtures were just as pricy. Granted, I wasn't around in the hobby at the time.
I've always loved the look of halides but I can't see this thread doing something the other 400 threads on the same topic didn't address. I don't think there's much argument that people are fine with anyone using what makes them happy. The anti-MH conspiracy is I think largely overblown. It's kind of like CRT monitors. They have superior color rendition, but they're hard to find because they're old technology with some narrow use cases. Sometimes old stuff is just hard to find.

That is true. However, the cost does come into play when you consider it is a one time purchase with the Geisemann. Once the MH fixture was purchased then you are buying bulbs instead of new fixtures every 3-5 years.

If all LED companies would design their lights similar to the Mitras where you can replace just diodes or pucks when they go out then that would be a huge step in the right direction with cost. This way you purchase a new replacement PCB down the road instead of a whole fixture.

 

[MoshJosh]

You should check out John Coppolinos kitchen nano from way back the day. I believe it was lit with just PC and looked incredible.

What are PC lights? Like hang my monitor over the reef?

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

What are PC lights? Like hang my monitor over the reef?

Power compact lights. I remember those! Hehe

 

[trmiv]

Let’s open a bigger can of worms here.. ya know Dino’s we’re never around much as they are today!! It’s almost impossible to not get them today in this hobby.. back when everyone was running mh and t5’s … Dino’s were far and few between! Let’s fast forward to today and the majority are using leds and have Dino outbreaks like clock work! With all that being said a uv light is affective at reducing most strains of Dino’s… you think mh putting out the uv helped keep them at bay and todays led lacking them are allowing them to flourish? I’ve seen it over and over and everyone says it’s dry rock or sand blah blah blah.. zero nutrients? I got them and my nutrients were super high coming from a 10 years old fowlr tank that wasn’t taken care of.. I put a radion over it and boom! Algae and Dino’s for a month straight ugh lol… I effectively beat them with a uv light… maybe I’m way off base here but it’s really got my wheels spinning…

The worst case of dinos I’ve had was in a tank lit exclusively by 2 Radium 250w halides in 2016. Absolutely devastated my tank at the time

 

[BurgerFish]

Will MH 250w handle 40 inch height tank? With the softies on the buttom?

 

[areefer01]

Will MH 250w handle 40 inch height tank? With the softies on the buttom?

Probably but then again so could a Kessil a360x using a one of their narrow reflector lens. There are so many variables that it can make ones head explode (poof). Also not all soft corals are the same although there is a general rule that tries to box soft, lps, and stone to a specific area in a display and/or par number.

Fun, isn't it? Job. Tool.

 

[Shooter6]

Aquaculture != home aquaria. His needs are vastly different than the average Joe. Same applies to large scale public aquarium displays.

Note this is just what hit me as I was reading your reply and has nothing to do with better or worse between lighting.

Most home reefers have the secret goal of being able to grow their corals to the point of being able to sell the frags. Either to offset the cost of the build/maintenance or to make it a business. So there's not that big of a difference. Look at all the people who buy name brand leds just because that's what they see coral farmers using.

 

[SteveMM62Reef]

I rebuilt my LED Fixture with a new Driver and COB. Took less than an Hour, most of it was due to being unfamiliar, with the action. Changed that 10000K COB out with a RGB COB

 

[areefer01]

Most home reefers have the secret goal of being able to grow their corals to the point of being able to sell the frags. Either to offset the cost of the build/maintenance or to make it a business. So there's not that big of a difference. Look at all the people who buy name brand leds just because that's what they see coral farmers using.

Sure. There is a bit of a side hustle going on but how many hobbyists are doing that vs not? I don't know. I would still stand by my comment as it relates to time and money and different needs. Aquaculture has a different set of needs if one is trying to earn money. Growth, color, time between fragging, etc. In this case people would typically use tools and practices to achieve that.

Maybe it can be done with one light or the other that everyone is discussing but I'd argue that growth or time between frags is going to be the primary focus. So best tool to meet that would win.

I do agree with your secret goal and we can thank social media for that and the side hustle video. Of course if time isn't a constraint then my argument goes out the window Hope your day is going well.

 

[Eric R.]

You should check out John Coppolinos kitchen nano from way back the day. I believe it was lit with just PC and looked incredible.

Yeah, I think I've read over all of Copp's threads since that tank. I still like glancing through some of the build threads on RC. Copps could (and still can) do some amazing things that I've seen few other people match. I'd still take an LED fixture over a PC fixture any day though...

 

[BurgerFish]

Kessil a360x

I dont believe that Kessil 360 will handle SPS on top and middle, with softies at the bottom. To lit 13.5g Fluval needs to use two 15w kessils, and it's not bright and full of shadowing.

For 24x40x24 tank, you'll need a two 500x, with shadowing. To reduce it to halide level, I need maybe 3 500x.

 

[SpSDrew]

I honestly think a metal halide/T5 or metal halide/LED is the way to go. Get best of both worlds. They both have been proven to grow corals. Will metal halides ever make a comeback? Not a chance. Will there be enough support in the market to continue making bulbs? Very likly for a few years at least. Anyone with metal halides like myself have years worth of bulbs on hand.

Do what you like in the end. Not everyone needs super growth you may see from a 10k halide. Not everyone is growing corals for a living so maximizing growth is not as important compared to factors such as a color or controllability.

 

[areefer01]

I dont believe that Kessil 360 will handle SPS on top and middle, with softies at the bottom. To lit 13.5g Fluval needs to use two 15w kessils, and it's not bright and full of shadowing.

For 24x40x24 tank, you'll need a two 500x, with shadowing. To reduce it to halide level, I need maybe 3 500x.

You said:
Will MH 250w handle 40 inch height tank? With the softies on the buttom?

I replied probably just as a Kessil a360x could when using a narrow reflector. The lens allows them to punch through depth. Tool for the job be it lens or reflector, etc. We are back to design and implementation not which is better.

As an aside you are now changing the requirement to include corals with different lighting requirements and dimensions which wasn't part of your original question I replied to.

Edit 2: Also if you want to compare setup a MH solution then pick say Reefi 2.0 LED solution and then do a price per watt. Maybe everyone will be surprised. Maybe not.

 

[A. grandis]

What are PC lights? Like hang my monitor over the reef?

Only old people like me and others here would know what PC bulbs are.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

Only old people like me and others here would know what PC bulbs are.

 

[A. grandis]

This thread couldn't be without this video:

 

[BeanAnimal]

I don't get the utility of this debate... I do however, see a whole lot of tilting at windmills.