Acro tip burn and fading

[MARK M. DAVIS]

Combo: Lighting intensity, Alk, and low Iodine. Decent conditions, good growth, can't expel oxygen produced by zooxanthellae during photosynthesis. Excess O2 irritates coral, releases zooxanthellae, tissue turns white, like bleaching then algae populates. Cilliate bacterial clean up crew assists. Definitely ICP Triton test your water. Reduce lighting for now. Keep Alk stable. 8-9 or wherever you stabilized at.

 

[vetteguy53081]

What is your light intensity? Pic?

 

[BigJohnny]

I have a Waterbox 170.4/5 that I set up last July. Total free water volume of 130 gallons. I used fresh sand and water but transferred over my live rock from existing old setup. I had a couple Acros that were doing ok in the old tank and transferred those over as well. Everything started to flourish and I ordered a couple packs from Battlecorals with everything doing very well. Have about 20 acro frags to mini colonies in the tank. About a month ago I lost a small colony. I was bummed but know it happens. Everything else was doing ok. Well the last 3 weeks more corals have started to burn at the tips. I checked my water parameters and they are as follows:
Alk: 9.0 (Hanna and Salifert)
Calcium: 420 (Salifert)
Mag: 1350 (Salifert)
Nitrate: 5 (Nyos)
Phosphate: 0.03 (Hanna)
pH: ranging from 7.8 - 8.1 night to day
I did a big water change of about 35% a week ago and lowered my Alk to 8.0 thinking maybe higher alk could burn the tips and things started to look up but now they are taking a dive again. about 25% of the acros are burning at the tips and not looking good. A few are good size mini colonies grown from little frags. It seems to just come all of a sudden. I did add a CO2 reactor to my skimmer air inlet which has raised my pH to 8.1 - 8.3 night to day a couple weeks ago thinking this might help but still having issues.
More info on the tank:
Two Gyre 250s for flow
Reef Octopus Varios-6 return pump
Vertex Omega 180 skimmer
Spyglass carbon reactor with ROX carbon (only use about a cup a month based on BRS recommendation on my tank size)
Two 7" 200 micron filter socks
Orphek V4s for lighting
GHL 2.1 doser to dose Alk and Cal
Only other thing I add is the KZ Coral System package of amino acids

Everything was doing so well and then all of a sudden they are dying with no changes made to the system. Only thing added since this started happening is the CO2 scrubber. Please help me with ideas on how to combat this. Thank you.

Not sure what's happening but just fyi ph swings can cause burnt tips ime. Either change out your co2 media consistently before exhaustion or take the scrubber offline. I've seen burnt tips after neglecting to change co2 media and then changing it. The ph can shoot up pretty fast depending on how powerful your skimmer is.

Rox carbon is a very aggressive carbon and if you do want to use it consistently I would run a very small amount. I would also use a bag not a reactor, or dont use it at all/weaker carbon.

Additionally, low potassium can cause all sorts of issues but if you dont have a fuge or bad salt mix it should be ok.

I dont think your alk changes or # are the cause unless your corals were already stressed from something else, which is certainly possible.

Hope it turns around!

 

[MARK M. DAVIS]

What is your light intensity? Pic?

My lighting intensity is very high. But, that's should not be the case with all tanks, especially, initially. Corals packed and shipped are stressed. They need time to adjust. High light typically means high photosynthesis and high oxygen. Photosynthesis along with alk is a perfect storm for corals that cannot rid themselves of the toxic, excess O2. Thus, the need for Iodine. Small amount act as a carrier of oxygen away from the coral. Without the transport mechanism, the corals will tip bleach and burn.

 

[MARK M. DAVIS]

You can check out my tank and lighting profile on Facebook, "Advanced Aquatic Solutions" public face book page.

 

[Smarkow]

My lighting intensity is very high. But, that's should not be the case with all tanks, especially, initially. Corals packed and shipped are stressed. They need time to adjust. High light typically means high photosynthesis and high oxygen. Photosynthesis along with alk is a perfect storm for corals that cannot rid themselves of the toxic, excess O2. Thus, the need for Iodine. Small amount act as a carrier of oxygen away from the coral. Without the transport mechanism, the corals will tip bleach and burn.

This is a fascinating thought, and coral acclimation by varying PAR, Alk, Iodine, and Flow could be done relatively easy in a controlled environment. Not cheaply, I will grant. Is any of the stuff related to Iodine published?

Thanks

 

[jschultzbass]

What is your light intensity? Pic?

Not quite sure what you mean by intensity. I haven't used a par meter but have Orpheks. They are 4 channels. The blue and UV channel max out at 80% and the red and white channels at 50%. Attached is a pic of the setup.

 

[jschultzbass]

Not sure what's happening but just fyi ph swings can cause burnt tips ime. Either change out your co2 media consistently before exhaustion or take the scrubber offline. I've seen burnt tips after neglecting to change co2 media and then changing it. The ph can shoot up pretty fast depending on how powerful your skimmer is.

Rox carbon is a very aggressive carbon and if you do want to use it consistently I would run a very small amount. I would also use a bag not a reactor, or dont use it at all/weaker carbon.

Additionally, low potassium can cause all sorts of issues but if you dont have a fuge or bad salt mix it should be ok.

I dont think your alk changes or # are the cause unless your corals were already stressed from something else, which is certainly possible.

Hope it turns around!

Thank you for the info. I took the CO2 scrubber offline and will just let me pH swing where it wants. Without the scrubber pH ranges from 7.9 - 8.1.
I am tending to agree with the ROX comments and will be foregoing carbon from now on.

 

[jschultzbass]

So, as of now I took off ROX carbon and took off the CO2 scrubber. Keeping Alk stable at 8.0. Still have the filter socks right now but didn't want to make too many changes at once. I'm doing a 25% water change tonight and might do another 25% in a week, haven't decided yet. Just to let the corals adjust, I might also lower the output of the Orpheks 20% so that means moving the blues and UV from 80 to 60% at max and the whites and reds from 50 to 30% at max. Let me know if that's a good idea.
Current test parameters as of today:
Alk: 8.0
Cal: 420
Mag: 1350
PO4: 0.04 (Hanna ULR)
NO3: 10 (Nyos)
pH: 7.9 - 8.1 night to day

I also am receiving today some new and different brand test kits to verify these numbers. If any of them are off I'll report it here.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Not quite sure what you mean by intensity. I haven't used a par meter but have Orpheks. They are 4 channels. The blue and UV channel max out at 80% and the red and white channels at 50%. Attached is a pic of the setup.

Yes, bring white down to 25-30% . These are the lights that I actually want to get

 

[ReeferNtraining]

My lighting intensity is very high. But, that's should not be the case with all tanks, especially, initially. Corals packed and shipped are stressed. They need time to adjust. High light typically means high photosynthesis and high oxygen. Photosynthesis along with alk is a perfect storm for corals that cannot rid themselves of the toxic, excess O2. Thus, the need for Iodine. Small amount act as a carrier of oxygen away from the coral. Without the transport mechanism, the corals will tip bleach and burn.

Mark, I wish you were around when I started having these problems in my SPS system w/ a CO2 scrubber. This is the most logical explanation I have ever read against the use of a CO2 scrubber. It makes sense. Thank you!

 

[jschultzbass]

So I got my new test kits in and everything is reading correctly. The Potassium kit read 390 with a natural ocean value of 400 so pretty close. This evening more of the corals are starting to puke their guts out of the tips I know there is nothing more I can do right now but this is getting heartbreaking.

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

It’s good that you’re on top of it and, more importantly, your acros are still alive. They’re hurting, but not dead. Some have said to snip the burnt tips off but you don’t have to. It’s funny I have 20+ tenuis in my tank but I have this one tort that has survived through all my struggles. It’s the only one that will get burnt tips. It’s like an acro alarm for me. The burnt tips will just wither away when the acros perk up. Keep us posted.

I have a tank that I do that has an older wild acro colony like this.

It was new in the tank a few years ago. A rock slide obliterated it, but I was able to salvage a piece about the size of a strawberry. Glued it on to a rock, and after a couple of years, was about the size of my hand. Switched over to a dosing pump after years of just having the client semi-haphazardly dumping in alk and calcium. After the dosing pump went in, there were a couple of all swings and this acro started having burned tips. All the other corals would look fine (including several other wild acros), but I can always tell when the alk is moving around by this one coral.

 

[ScottB]

I've read the whole thread now. Really sorry to hear of your struggle. I agree with your actions to this point and I like your parameters. So, I am kind grasping at straws here. Hopefully, the ICP test provides a clue. While I've killed my share of acros over the years, "puking out guts" is a brand new visual for me. Is anyone familiar with a more precise term for this behavior? Is this what "expelling zooxanthellae" looks like? Or is this something else?

As to "grasping at straws":
- Some kind of toxin introduced from the air or a corroding part. I've heard many strange airborne stories... oven cleaners, burned teflon pan, air fresheners, you name it. Seems that the carbon would have trapped it tho.
- Stray current. This is a stretch; I manage a tank that had it for quite some time without harm. Voltmeter is cheap for checking that.
- Fish list? Angels? File fish? somebody going rogue? My angels ignore acros; they prefer expensive zoas - Rastas in particular
- A pest. IME tho, they prefer the base and eat their way up the branches. AEFW, red bugs and apparently black bugs (which I have never seen but)
- Chemical warfare from aggressive corals. I had a chalice once that...

Whatever the cause, I do recommend clipping off the dead skeleton all the way back to / including live tissue. None of mine have ever grown tissue back over dead skeleton. In fact my acros almost all respond very well to being cut back. I'll see multiple "buds" within two/three weeks at each cut.

Let us know about the ICP. Good luck.

 

[jschultzbass]

I've read the whole thread now. Really sorry to hear of your struggle. I agree with your actions to this point and I like your parameters. So, I am kind grasping at straws here. Hopefully, the ICP test provides a clue. While I've killed my share of acros over the years, "puking out guts" is a brand new visual for me. Is anyone familiar with a more precise term for this behavior? Is this what "expelling zooxanthellae" looks like? Or is this something else?

As to "grasping at straws":
- Some kind of toxin introduced from the air or a corroding part. I've heard many strange airborne stories... oven cleaners, burned teflon pan, air fresheners, you name it. Seems that the carbon would have trapped it tho.
- Stray current. This is a stretch; I manage a tank that had it for quite some time without harm. Voltmeter is cheap for checking that.
- Fish list? Angels? File fish? somebody going rogue? My angels ignore acros; they prefer expensive zoas - Rastas in particular
- A pest. IME tho, they prefer the base and eat their way up the branches. AEFW, red bugs and apparently black bugs (which I have never seen but)
- Chemical warfare from aggressive corals. I had a chalice once that...

Whatever the cause, I do recommend clipping off the dead skeleton all the way back to / including live tissue. None of mine have ever grown tissue back over dead skeleton. In fact my acros almost all respond very well to being cut back. I'll see multiple "buds" within two/three weeks at each cut.

Let us know about the ICP. Good luck.

When I say puking guts out you are right, I would consider it expelling zooxanthellae. To asnwer a couple more things:
- There was a corroding magnet on my Apex optical level sensor (which i've read is a problem with these) so I got rid of that the magnet bracket from Apex and got one from Octo Aquatics that is made 100 times better. There are so many magnets in tanks nowadays, including holding my Gyres on, that I don't know if I'd be able to find any and every one but did find the apparent one As far as airborne, nothing new since I started my tank but do have a plug in air freshener near that I am going to move, just in case.
- You hear a lot of different things on stray current. Some swear that it's a problem, some swear it isn't. I think I'm going to grab a grounding rod just in case. It won't hurt anything and they aren't that expensive.
- Fish list is: 2 Pajama Cardinals, yellow watchman goby, royal gramma, orchid dottyback, azure damsel, Melanurus wrasse, orangeback fairy wrasse, Pintail fairy wrasse, Linespot flasher wrasse, Magnificent Foxface, Powder brown tang, Gem tang, two spot bristletooth tang, blue tang, blue jaw trigger. Before anyone gets too worried, the Blue tang will be moving to my 300 gallon when it gets a little bigger No known coral nippers in the bunch.
I did a close examination for pests both with my camera and magnifying glass and don't see anything....
- Chemical warfare - non of my corals are close enough for this. I did have a chalice cause some damage to my scoly before i noticed and moved them apart. Chalice are mean.

 

[jschultzbass]

Update! Well as of now no new corals have been affected and the ones that were affected don't seem to be getting worse...but not better either. I know it's early so I'm just watching. Been keeping Alk stable at 8.0 and removed my filter socks after the water change mentioned earlier in the thread. As mentioned in last post also found a magnet holding my Apex optical sensor corroded so took that out. One thing that had been bugging me lately is I started getting a little brown slime algae on a couple rocks. Nothing bad but I didn't like it. Just read today while researching amino acids that high use, while not affecting corals, might cause brown slime algae. I have been using the KZ 4-additive Coral System (https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/coral-system-250-ml-package-korallen-zucht.html) as well as some TLF Acropower so I am cutting these back a lot to see if the brown slime algae goes away.

I also got my first water testing results back from AquaMedic. I'm still waiting to get results from ICP-Analysis (even though from what I read these guys might not be too trusted). Results are in the picture. I tested Alk, Cal, Mg, Nitrate, Phos, Potassium at the time I took the sample. Everything matches up almost exactly as my test results showed (yay!) except calcium I was getting 420 with two different kits and the results below indicate 375. Also, i got 1300 magnesium with the test showing 1260. The higher levels of Molybdenum, according to their analysis, could cause slime algae, which i've been seeing, and is probably coming in from my additives (KZ and acropower). This further tells me I need to cut back on dosing of these. Anyone else have any thoughts?

 

[Johnson556]

I haven't read the responses but the same thing happened to me for a while. I stopped running carbon and cut the bottom of my filter sock of and everything has taken off since. I went from killing green slimers to having over 30+ sticks thriving. A lot of knowledgeable people on here for sure.

 

[ScottB]

Just to make your head spin. I just had a couple small acro colonies RTN (at the store, not home tanks) so got me spooked/looking. It is a large established system with rock steady parameters.

Here is a link to R2R thread that discusses/debates the causes of RTN/STN. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/possible-solution-to-end-rtn-forever.563527/page-9

The research seems pretty compelling, but I am not advocating/endorsing as I have no experience with this treatment. May have since been debunked or whatever. Any old-timers experienced with Prime Coral treatments?

Here are the product links for the treatments discussed:

https://coralrtn.com/prime-coral-stop-rtn/ (a dip)
https://coralrtn.com/prime-coral-prevent-rtn/ (in tank treatment; sadly, it is NOT fish safe)

 

[jschultzbass]

So I got the ICP-Analysis tests back and similar results to the Aquamedic with a few differences. This one says I'm low on Bromine, Iodine and Strontium. Iodine difference is .08 vs .01 but not too worried about this. The molybdenum test is also a lot lower, 0.01 vs 0.3 but I'm not too worried about this either. Phosphate is close, 0.05 vs 0.06 ppm. Magnesium in both is lower than i like at 1260 so raising that back up to north of 1300. Last difference is Calcium, 375 vs 412 with ICP. The 412 makes more sense based on my kits so I'm glad to see this. Other than that, please let me know if you guys see anything that could be a flag.

 

[jschultzbass]

Things still don't seem to be getting better. Another frag that was doing well has started to degenerate. I haven't made any more changes, just keeping things stable as is. Everything was doing so well, this is just depressing. Hopefully I can have my frag tank set up this weekend and maybe can move some frags to that in the next month to see if they do a little better. Any other advice? Even my big frag of purple stylo is fading away, almost completely gone....my forest fire digi that was growing like a weed has stopped and not looking well. About half my SPS frags don't seem to be affected at all yet though....