Do you really need an explanation of what "bio-diversity" means? Do you really need someone to explain why getting live rock, with a "diversity" of sponges, feather dusters, worms, coralline algae, beneficial bacteria strains, serpent and brittle stars, other inverts, etc., etc., are "tangible" benefits, that you can not find with "dead" rock?
I love all the patronization in a community geared toward learning and sharing knowledge, hah! Aside from that, a key point in biodiversity is that different types of organisms play different roles in an ecosystem, called a niche. Ecosysten resiliency thrives on biodiversity because it needs multiple species to fill the same niche. If one of these species should die off or get eaten, there is another species present to still fill that same ecological role. This makes the system more stable on a variety of scales, all fauna on the macro(think of bristle stars), meso(pods), and micro (bacteria) scales need each other to function properly. Seeding a tank with live rock, especially live rock from multiple places, offers this biodiversity considering these species have been tested to compete and stand against nature out in the ocean. Yes, do be wary of hitchhikers and pay attention to all the neat suggestions for removing them or caring for them properly. But do recognize, it takes 8 years for live rock to be cultured in the ocean for our use, so consider how long it might take to actually develop that kind of biodiversity in a closed system such as your reef tank. I think the benefits outweigh the costs for this reason alone, do your homework and keep it simple, stupid.
So, should I-or someone else on this thread- write a 10,000 word thesis? All of the information is out there, readily available with a few clicks of the mouse. Do you want a paragraph on what "bio-diversity" means? I bet that if you did a key word search on THIS forum, or reefcentral alone, that you would get reams of info. As far as live rock being beneficial-or not-again, there are reams and reams of opinion, reference material and information on this site itself.
I was able to explain biodiversity in less words than both of your posts about biodiversity. No thesis required, just a tiny amount of thought and a much better attitude. You should try it! Or have your morning coffee before you start your daily forum prowl.
Again, this comes back to what your intent is in participating in this thread.
With regards to bio-diversity, for all I know you might be referring to fauna. You might be referring to flora. You might be referring to micro-organisms. You might be referring to good bacteria. You might be referring to bad bacteria. You might be referring to viruses. You might think that reef tanks that are absent of AEFWs, bristleworms, natural reef predators or even pathogens found in the ocean is lacking something. No idea what you mean when you are talking about bio-diversity.
If you want your point to be understood, then feel free to write a paragraph or a 10,000 word thesis. That's your choice. But if you are going to have such a strong opinion on a topic, you should anticipate that people will ask you why you have that opinion and you shouldn't feel so defensive when people aren't so open to just take your word for it.
I think I stated what I meant but let me quote myself, since you must have missed it:
"Do you really need an explanation of what "bio-diversity" means? Do you really need someone to explain why getting live rock, with a "diversity" of sponges, feather dusters, worms, coralline algae, beneficial bacteria strains, serpent and brittle stars, other inverts, etc., etc., are "tangible" benefits, that you can not find with "dead" rock"?
I think I stated what I meant but let me quote myself, since you must have missed it:
"Do you really need an explanation of what "bio-diversity" means? Do you really need someone to explain why getting live rock, with a "diversity" of sponges, feather dusters, worms, coralline algae, beneficial bacteria strains, serpent and brittle stars, other inverts, etc., etc., are "tangible" benefits, that you can not find with "dead" rock"?
The original post wasn’t any better than your quoting it. Nice try being helpful, but you missed all of the important points. Try reading the 10,000 word thesis out there on the internet somewhere eluding you??
I think I stated what I meant but let me quote myself, since you must have missed it:
"Do you really need an explanation of what "bio-diversity" means? Do you really need someone to explain why getting live rock, with a "diversity" of sponges, feather dusters, worms, coralline algae, beneficial bacteria strains, serpent and brittle stars, other inverts, etc., etc., are "tangible" benefits, that you can not find with "dead" rock"?
So to answer your question, yes. I'd like you to explain why getting sponges, feather dusters, worms, serpent and brittle stars are good. What are these tangible benefits that they bring? How is a reef tank worse off without these organisms? It's not enough to just say that having these things in your tank is good. What is so good about having these things in your tank? To give an example, one thing everyone says you should do is to add a clean up crew to your reef tank. I mean, it sounds good but in the end, does a clean up crew really add any benefit? I've had tanks that had clean up crews and tanks without. Both kinds of tanks still had algae and bouts with cyano. Both kinds of tanks still needed nutrient management. I like clean up crews and all but I couldn't for the life of me explain what "tangible" benefits clean up crews bring. What I can tell you is this - when a big snail goes and dies in the back of the tank somewhere, its not beneficial.
Also, you don't detail out other organisms that come with live rock. Bristle worms, vermetid snails, mantis shrimp, flat worms, pest nudibranchs, pathogens. Why? Do those not come on live rock?
This is part and parcel of participating in any type of forum. Some people are not accustomed to having to explain in detail why they think or believe in something. And that's ok.
Its entirely possible that the other poster has a wealth of information. I'm trying different ways of asking questions to try and tease out what he/she knows about the topic. This kind of back and forth doesn't always go well though. Occasionally you'll run across someone whose knowledge doesn't match the strength of their opinion. And as you might guess, those kinds of people get defensive fast.
Oh, I definitely appreciate hearing about other people's experiences. One thing I have found in this hobby though (and every other endeavor I have participated in) is that there are people who share their opinions and then there are people who share their opinions and will show you/tell you how they arrived at their opinions. I always find the latter to be fascinating - it is what facilitates true learning.
I have high hopes for my tank - mostly because there is so much quality information that is readily available. It's the first one I have ever set up with dead rock. It does have a live sand bed though plus I just added mushrooms that were attached to frag plugs so the tank is "contaminated" to a certain degree. I've already seen copepods and a bristleworm - likely hitchikers from the recent coral additions. I am curious to see how long before coralline algae will grow.
Your post compelled me to post an update on my build thread - in case you are curious.
One thing I have found in this hobby though (and every other endeavor I have participated in) is that there are people who share their opinions and then there are people who share their opinions and will show you/tell you how they arrived at their opinions. I always find the latter to be fascinating - it is what facilitates true learning.
Agreed, sharing how we arrived at our opinion helps. That’s why I like build threads, even though mine has some real disasters in it. But overcoming the challenges is how you can see I got to where I am now, and why I may have certain opinions.
Very little in this hobby is worthy of arguing about who is right or wrong. People have gorgeous tanks and use totally opposite methods sometimes. Plus a lot of the stuff we put in our tanks to help out, often don’t even list the frickin ingredients or bacteria on the bottle. Kinda like the live rock and live sand I put in. All I know is the bottles didn’t work for months and I hated looking at my tank. I seeded my tank with coralline from my nano, but nothing took.
I did quarantine everything going in my tank to make sure I don’t add anything that could kill my fish or my clam.
A week after adding the live rock , stinky sand and macroalgaes, my tank stabilized. The chrysophyte was gone, the water was more clear. And 2 weeks later coralline is already growing on my powerheads and on the dead rock.
Nice update on your thread. I like your new mushrooms!
You're right, I misspell Delbeek's name probably 30% of the time. (I can actually think back to the moment a couple decades ago I set the wrong spelling in my memory, giving someone asking me questions about a clients tank the title of thier book and mispelling Delbeek's name. )
To expound on my previous post:
I refferenced Delbeek an Sprung and Nilsen and Fossa since they are the earliest refferences I could document and others could look up. I also credit their writing for helping me undestand a little better what's happening in my reef ssytems and hence my success over the years. Personally though, and before their books, I was fortunate enough to be mentored in the early 90's by two aquarists who started in the mid 70's who were both proponents of live rock but that's anecdotal.
By '97 I had already seen success setting up clients tanks adding fish and corals in less than 48 hours when I had a conversation with the director of the infectious disease department of a local hospital. It was a brief but seminal discussion about bacteria. I don't remember it word for word but the gist of what she said was what really defined a bacteria as "Good" or "Bad" was if it was were it was supposed to be. The take away for me I needed to think beyond just nitrates and phosphates and nitrification, these systems really needed to be thought of as a single entity. Do what's best for the system first even if it doesn't help a coral. And on a more practical level I found using water from a "healthy" system would often help a system that wasn't doing so well.
So, my insistence on live rock is based not only on the opinions (based on their extensive experiences) of local and international experts from a wide range of backgrounds but also of over a couple decades of personal experience proving, to me at least, they were correct.
But that's all anecdotal and could be pure fabrication. I would point out, since then it doesn't matter where in the life sciences we look, whether it's our own physical and mental health or sustainable farming, having the right microbial balance, microbiome is often used now, is essential for a healthy ecosystem.
For visual reference I offer a video of a system setup using live rock but no skimmer as discussed by Delbeek and Sprung in Vol I and there's also the videos in my build thread of a system set up in '97. (There's more of my stuff at youtube.com/timfishone and in the next month or so I'll be starting a build thread of a solar powered pure Lee Chin Eng system for those who want to follow.)
A couple additional comments
To start with, we are clearly looking to the microbial processes in reef systems. The science looking at the various and conflicting roles of microbial processes on reef systems is VERY complex and is constantly expanding. A really good introduction for those interested is Forest Rohwer's "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas". I would strongly recommend reading it before reading the links I've posted below.
A second note, much of waht we've learned about microbial proccesses is using 16S rDNA. One of the surprises using 16 S rDNA testing has shown us is the vast majority of the microbes identified are unculturable.
So far Aquabiomics is the only one I've found to look specifically at what's happening with the microbial populations and live rock in aquaria over time usuing 16S rDNA. It's a good start but it is just a start.
Now for some additional links looking at microbial processes on reefs:
Indirect effects of algae on coral: algae‐mediated, microbe‐induced coral mortality
Coral seperated from algae with a .02 µm filter die. Treatment with aampicillan prevents death.
Benthic primary producers in tropical reef ecosystems can alter biogeochemical cycling and microbial processes in the surrounding seawater. In order to quantify these influences, we measured rates of photosynthesis, respiration, and dissolved organic carbon (DOC) exudate release by the dominant...
peerj.com
Effects of Coral Reef Benthic Primary Producers on Dissolved Organic Carbon and Microbial Activity
Algae releases significantly more DOC into the water than coral.
Benthic primary producers in marine ecosystems may significantly alter biogeochemical cycling and microbial processes in their surrounding environment. To examine these interactions, we studied dissolved organic matter release by dominant benthic taxa and subsequent microbial remineralization in...
journals.plos.org
Pathologies and mortality rates caused by organic carbon and nutrient stressors in three Caribbean coral species.
Starch and sugars (doc) caused coral death but not high nitrates, phosphates or ammonium.
Planar optodes were used to visualize oxygen distribution patterns associated with a coral reef associated green algae (Chaetomorpha sp.) and a hermatypic coral (Favia sp.) separately, as standalone organisms, and placed in close proximity mimicking coral-algal interactions. Oxygen patterns were...
peerj.com
Biological oxygen demand optode analysis of coral reef-associated microbial communities exposed to algal exudates
Exposure to exudates derived from turf algae stimulated higher oxygen drawdown by the coral-associated bacteria.
Algae-derived dissolved organic matter has been hypothesized to induce mortality of reef building corals. One proposed killing mechanism is a zone of hypoxia created by rapidly growing microbes. To investigate this hypothesis, biological oxygen ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Microbial ecology: Algae feed a shift on coral reefs
Human pressures on coral reefs are giving macroalgae a competitive advantage over reef-building corals. These algae support larger, and potentially pathogenic, microbial populations that are metabolically primed for less-efficient, yet faster, carbohydrate remineralization, perpetuating a...
www.nature.com
Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages.
Increasing algal cover on tropical reefs worldwide may be maintained through feedbacks whereby algae outcompete coral by altering microbial activity. We hypothesized that algae and coral release compositionally distinct exudates that differentially alter bacterioplankton growth and community...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Sugar enrichment provides evidence for a role of nitrogen fixation in coral bleaching
Elevated ammonium delays the impairment of the coral-dinoflagellate symbiosis during labile carbon pollution
(here's an argument for maintaining heavy fish loads if you're carbon dosing)
Labile dissolved organic carbon (DOC) is a major pollutant in coastal marine environments affected by anthropogenic impacts, and may significantly con…
www.sciencedirect.com
Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton
Coastal pollution and algal cover are increasing on many coral reefs, resulting in higher dissolved organic carbon (DOC) concentrations. High DOC concentrations strongly affect microbial activity in reef waters and select for copiotrophic, often potentially virulent microbial populations. High...
www.nature.com
Unseen players shape benthic competition on coral reefs.
Recent work has shown that hydrophilic and hydrophobic organic matter (OM) from algae disrupts the function of the coral holobiont and promotes the invasion of opportunistic pathogens, leading to coral morbidity and mortality. Here we refer to these dynamics as the (3)DAM [dissolved organic...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Allelochemicals Produced by Brown Macroalgae of the Lobophora Genus Are Active against Coral Larvae and Associated Bacteria, Supporting Pathogenic Shifts to Vibrio Dominance.
Diverse microbial communities associate with coral tissues and mucus, providing important protective and nutritional services, but once disturbed, the microbial equilibrium may shift from a beneficial state to one that is detrimental or pathogenic. Macroalgae (e.g., seaweeds) can physically and...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Macroalgae decrease growth and alter microbial community structure of the reef-building coral, Porites astreoides.
With the continued and unprecedented decline of coral reefs worldwide, evaluating the factors that contribute to coral demise is of critical importance. As coral cover declines, macroalgae are becoming more common on tropical reefs. Interactions between these macroalgae and corals may alter the...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Macroalgal extracts induce bacterial assemblage shifts and sublethal tissue stress in Caribbean corals.
Benthic macroalgae can be abundant on present-day coral reefs, especially where rates of herbivory are low and/or dissolved nutrients are high. This study investigated the impact of macroalgal extracts on both coral-associated bacterial assemblages and sublethal stress response of corals. Crude...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Biophysical and physiological processes causing oxygen loss from coral reefs.
Analysis of 60 sites in three ocean basins suggests that overgrowth of fleshy algae on coral reefs supports higher microbial abundances dominated by copiotrophic, potentially pathogenic bacteria via the provision of dissolved inorganic carbon.
www.nature.com
Because sponges are essential players in the carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus cycle(s) on reefs here's some links to research done with them.
Element cycling on tropical coral reefs.
This is Jasper de Geoij's ground breaking research on reef sponges. (The introduction is in Dutch but the content is in English.)
Marine sponges are ubiquitous colonizers of shallow, clear-water environments in the oceans (1, 2). Sponges have emerged as significant mediators of biogeochemical fluxes in coastal zones by virtue of respiring organic matter and facilitating both the consumption and release of nutrients (3, 4)...
www.pnas.org
Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges
(Chris Kenndall had a problem with low PO4 and had problems raising it with Neophos. Samples sent off showed phosphorus crystals developing in some of the sponges in his system accounting for at least some of his systems consumption.)
Coral reefs are highly productive ecosystems that raise a conundrum called “Darwin’s paradox”: How can high production flourish in low-nutrient conditions? We show here that in three abundant Caribbean sponges, the granules that have been commonly observed in sponge tissue for decades are...
www.pnas.org
Differential recycling of coral and algal dissolved organic matter via the sponge loop.
Sponges treat DOC from algae differently than DOC from corals
Surviving in a Marine Desert The Sponge Loop Retains Resources Within Coral Reefs
Dissolved organic carbon and nitrogen are quickly processed by sponges and released back into the reef food web in hours as carbon and nitrogen rich detritus.
PDF | On Jun 23, 2015, Jasper M de Goeij and others published 2013 deGoeij Science Sponge loop | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate
www.researchgate.net
Natural Diet of Coral-Excavating Sponges Consists Mainly of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC)
Coral-excavating sponges are the most important bioeroders on Caribbean reefs and increase in abundance throughout the region. This increase is commonly attributed to a concomitant increase in food availability due to eutrophication and pollution. ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
The Role of Marine Sponges in Carbon and Nitrogen Cycles of COral Reefs and Nearshore Environments.
Explore millions of resources from scholarly journals, books, newspapers, videos and more, on the ProQuest Platform.
search.proquest.com
And since we're discussing favorable and not so favorable bacteria here's a paper looking at how different corals and polyps are influencing the bacteria in the water column.
Aura-biomes are present in the water layer above coral reef benthic macro-organisms
As coral reef habitats decline worldwide, some reefs are transitioning from coral- to algal-dominated benthos with the exact cause for this shift remaining elusive. Increases in the abundance of microbes in the water column has been correlated with an increase in coral disease and reduction in...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
It seems pretty obvious to me our systems are far more complex than we may have imagined. They're certainly far more complex than I imagined at the beginning of the century or even than when I read Rower's book years ago. Maybe someday we'll have the understanding to artificially culture EVERYTHING in closed tanks but we still don't even know much of what's going on. BAs I see it, the best way to help get the proper microbial processes started is with with wild or maricultured live rock that has many of the organisms that are useful in moderating these processes and cannot be cultured.
You're right, I misspell Delbeek's name probably 30% of the time. (I can actually think back to the moment a couple decades ago I set the wrong spelling in my memory, giving someone asking me questions about a clients tank the title of thier book and mispelling Delbeek's name. )
To expound on my previous post:
I refferenced Delbeek an Sprung and Nilsen and Fossa since they are the earliest refferences I could document and others could look up. I also credit their writing for helping me undestand a little better what's happening in my reef ssytems and hence my success over the years. Personally though, and before their books, I was fortunate enough to be mentored in the early 90's by two aquarists who started in the mid 70's who were both proponents of live rock but that's anecdotal.
By '97 I had already seen success setting up clients tanks adding fish and corals in less than 48 hours when I had a conversation with the director of the infectious disease department of a local hospital. It was a brief but seminal discussion about bacteria. I don't remember it word for word but the gist of what she said was what really defined a bacteria as "Good" or "Bad" was if it was were it was supposed to be. The take away for me I needed to think beyond just nitrates and phosphates and nitrification, these systems really needed to be thought of as a single entity. Do what's best for the system first even if it doesn't help a coral. And on a more practical level I found using water from a "healthy" system would often help a system that wasn't doing so well.
So, my insistence on live rock is based not only on the opinions (based on their extensive experiences) of local and international experts from a wide range of backgrounds but also of over a couple decades of personal experience proving, to me at least, they were correct.
But that's all anecdotal and could be pure fabrication. I would point out, since then it doesn't matter where in the life sciences we look, whether it's our own physical and mental health or sustainable farming, having the right microbial balance, microbiome is often used now, is essential for a healthy ecosystem.
For visual reference I offer a video of a system setup using live rock but no skimmer as discussed by Delbeek and Sprung in Vol I and there's also the videos in my build thread of a system set up in '97. (There's more of my stuff at youtube.com/timfishone and in the next month or so I'll be starting a build thread of a solar powered pure Lee Chin Eng system for those who want to follow.)
A couple additional comments
To start with, we are clearly looking to the microbial processes in reef systems. The science looking at the various and conflicting roles of microbial processes on reef systems is VERY complex and is constantly expanding. A really good introduction for those interested is Forest Rohwer's "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas". I would strongly recommend reading it before reading the links I've posted below.
A second note, much of waht we've learned about microbial proccesses is using 16S rDNA. One of the surprises using 16 S rDNA testing has shown us is the vast majority of the microbes identified are unculturable.
So far Aquabiomics is the only one I've found to look specifically at what's happening with the microbial populations and live rock in aquaria over time usuing 16S rDNA. It's a good start but it is just a start.
Now for some additional links looking at microbial processes on reefs:
Indirect effects of algae on coral: algae‐mediated, microbe‐induced coral mortality
Coral seperated from algae with a .02 µm filter die. Treatment with aampicillan prevents death.
Benthic primary producers in tropical reef ecosystems can alter biogeochemical cycling and microbial processes in the surrounding seawater. In order to quantify these influences, we measured rates of photosynthesis, respiration, and dissolved organic carbon (DOC) exudate release by the dominant...
peerj.com
Effects of Coral Reef Benthic Primary Producers on Dissolved Organic Carbon and Microbial Activity
Algae releases significantly more DOC into the water than coral.
Benthic primary producers in marine ecosystems may significantly alter biogeochemical cycling and microbial processes in their surrounding environment. To examine these interactions, we studied dissolved organic matter release by dominant benthic taxa and subsequent microbial remineralization in...
journals.plos.org
Pathologies and mortality rates caused by organic carbon and nutrient stressors in three Caribbean coral species.
Starch and sugars (doc) caused coral death but not high nitrates, phosphates or ammonium.
Planar optodes were used to visualize oxygen distribution patterns associated with a coral reef associated green algae (Chaetomorpha sp.) and a hermatypic coral (Favia sp.) separately, as standalone organisms, and placed in close proximity mimicking coral-algal interactions. Oxygen patterns were...
peerj.com
Biological oxygen demand optode analysis of coral reef-associated microbial communities exposed to algal exudates
Exposure to exudates derived from turf algae stimulated higher oxygen drawdown by the coral-associated bacteria.
Algae-derived dissolved organic matter has been hypothesized to induce mortality of reef building corals. One proposed killing mechanism is a zone of hypoxia created by rapidly growing microbes. To investigate this hypothesis, biological oxygen ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Microbial ecology: Algae feed a shift on coral reefs
Human pressures on coral reefs are giving macroalgae a competitive advantage over reef-building corals. These algae support larger, and potentially pathogenic, microbial populations that are metabolically primed for less-efficient, yet faster, carbohydrate remineralization, perpetuating a...
www.nature.com
Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages.
Increasing algal cover on tropical reefs worldwide may be maintained through feedbacks whereby algae outcompete coral by altering microbial activity. We hypothesized that algae and coral release compositionally distinct exudates that differentially alter bacterioplankton growth and community...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Sugar enrichment provides evidence for a role of nitrogen fixation in coral bleaching
Elevated ammonium delays the impairment of the coral-dinoflagellate symbiosis during labile carbon pollution
(here's an argument for maintaining heavy fish loads if you're carbon dosing)
Labile dissolved organic carbon (DOC) is a major pollutant in coastal marine environments affected by anthropogenic impacts, and may significantly con…
www.sciencedirect.com
Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton
Coastal pollution and algal cover are increasing on many coral reefs, resulting in higher dissolved organic carbon (DOC) concentrations. High DOC concentrations strongly affect microbial activity in reef waters and select for copiotrophic, often potentially virulent microbial populations. High...
www.nature.com
Unseen players shape benthic competition on coral reefs.
Recent work has shown that hydrophilic and hydrophobic organic matter (OM) from algae disrupts the function of the coral holobiont and promotes the invasion of opportunistic pathogens, leading to coral morbidity and mortality. Here we refer to these dynamics as the (3)DAM [dissolved organic...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Allelochemicals Produced by Brown Macroalgae of the Lobophora Genus Are Active against Coral Larvae and Associated Bacteria, Supporting Pathogenic Shifts to Vibrio Dominance.
Diverse microbial communities associate with coral tissues and mucus, providing important protective and nutritional services, but once disturbed, the microbial equilibrium may shift from a beneficial state to one that is detrimental or pathogenic. Macroalgae (e.g., seaweeds) can physically and...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Macroalgae decrease growth and alter microbial community structure of the reef-building coral, Porites astreoides.
With the continued and unprecedented decline of coral reefs worldwide, evaluating the factors that contribute to coral demise is of critical importance. As coral cover declines, macroalgae are becoming more common on tropical reefs. Interactions between these macroalgae and corals may alter the...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Macroalgal extracts induce bacterial assemblage shifts and sublethal tissue stress in Caribbean corals.
Benthic macroalgae can be abundant on present-day coral reefs, especially where rates of herbivory are low and/or dissolved nutrients are high. This study investigated the impact of macroalgal extracts on both coral-associated bacterial assemblages and sublethal stress response of corals. Crude...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Biophysical and physiological processes causing oxygen loss from coral reefs.
Analysis of 60 sites in three ocean basins suggests that overgrowth of fleshy algae on coral reefs supports higher microbial abundances dominated by copiotrophic, potentially pathogenic bacteria via the provision of dissolved inorganic carbon.
www.nature.com
Because sponges are essential players in the carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus cycle(s) on reefs here's some links to research done with them.
Element cycling on tropical coral reefs.
This is Jasper de Geoij's ground breaking research on reef sponges. (The introduction is in Dutch but the content is in English.)
Marine sponges are ubiquitous colonizers of shallow, clear-water environments in the oceans (1, 2). Sponges have emerged as significant mediators of biogeochemical fluxes in coastal zones by virtue of respiring organic matter and facilitating both the consumption and release of nutrients (3, 4)...
www.pnas.org
Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges
(Chris Kenndall had a problem with low PO4 and had problems raising it with Neophos. Samples sent off showed phosphorus crystals developing in some of the sponges in his system accounting for at least some of his systems consumption.)
Coral reefs are highly productive ecosystems that raise a conundrum called “Darwin’s paradox”: How can high production flourish in low-nutrient conditions? We show here that in three abundant Caribbean sponges, the granules that have been commonly observed in sponge tissue for decades are...
www.pnas.org
Differential recycling of coral and algal dissolved organic matter via the sponge loop.
Sponges treat DOC from algae differently than DOC from corals
Surviving in a Marine Desert The Sponge Loop Retains Resources Within Coral Reefs
Dissolved organic carbon and nitrogen are quickly processed by sponges and released back into the reef food web in hours as carbon and nitrogen rich detritus.
PDF | On Jun 23, 2015, Jasper M de Goeij and others published 2013 deGoeij Science Sponge loop | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate
www.researchgate.net
Natural Diet of Coral-Excavating Sponges Consists Mainly of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC)
Coral-excavating sponges are the most important bioeroders on Caribbean reefs and increase in abundance throughout the region. This increase is commonly attributed to a concomitant increase in food availability due to eutrophication and pollution. ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
The Role of Marine Sponges in Carbon and Nitrogen Cycles of COral Reefs and Nearshore Environments.
Explore millions of resources from scholarly journals, books, newspapers, videos and more, on the ProQuest Platform.
search.proquest.com
And since we're discussing favorable and not so favorable bacteria here's a paper looking at how different corals and polyps are influencing the bacteria in the water column.
Aura-biomes are present in the water layer above coral reef benthic macro-organisms
As coral reef habitats decline worldwide, some reefs are transitioning from coral- to algal-dominated benthos with the exact cause for this shift remaining elusive. Increases in the abundance of microbes in the water column has been correlated with an increase in coral disease and reduction in...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
It seems pretty obvious to me our systems are far more complex than we may have imagined. They're certainly far more complex than I imagined at the beginning of the century or even than when I read Rower's book years ago. Maybe someday we'll have the understanding to artificially culture EVERYTHING in closed tanks but we still don't even know much of what's going on. BAs I see it, the best way to help get the proper microbial processes started is with with wild or maricultured live rock that has many of the organisms that are useful in moderating these processes and cannot be cultured.
Holy needle in the haystack, batman. It'll take forever to go through this material - 10x as long to figure out what it means.
I took a peek at one reference though. Here is an interesting passage:
Sponges have large water filtering capacity, up to 50,000 times their own tissue volume each day (Weisz et al. 2008), and they dramatically alter the water quality of the surrounding environment through animal and hosted microbial chemical transformations directly associated with their pumping, water filtration, and respiration processes. The large heterotrophic capacity of these organisms and their ability to feed on both particulate and dissolved organic matter (POM and DOM), make them powerful drivers of organic matter cycling in coastal systems (Yahel et al. 2003, Gibson 2011, de Goeij et al. 2013); sponge populations in cryptic habitats on reefs are capable of consuming carbon (C) equivalent to the total fixed locally by primary productivity (de Geoij et al. 2008a).
It seems in terms of processing dissolved organic matter, sponges can play a beneficial. Not clear if it would be a supplement or perhaps a more effective way to process DOMs beyond what nitrifying bacteria and other artificial filtration would provide.
Assuming this to be the case (either supplemental or primary), indeed live rock that contains sponges would be beneficial in a reef tank. Have you run across any information that indicates how well sponges on live rock tolerate export from the ocean all the way to a reef aquarium?
You're right, I misspell Delbeek's name probably 30% of the time. (I can actually think back to the moment a couple decades ago I set the wrong spelling in my memory, giving someone asking me questions about a clients tank the title of thier book and mispelling Delbeek's name. )
To expound on my previous post:
I refferenced Delbeek an Sprung and Nilsen and Fossa since they are the earliest refferences I could document and others could look up. I also credit their writing for helping me undestand a little better what's happening in my reef ssytems and hence my success over the years. Personally though, and before their books, I was fortunate enough to be mentored in the early 90's by two aquarists who started in the mid 70's who were both proponents of live rock but that's anecdotal.
By '97 I had already seen success setting up clients tanks adding fish and corals in less than 48 hours when I had a conversation with the director of the infectious disease department of a local hospital. It was a brief but seminal discussion about bacteria. I don't remember it word for word but the gist of what she said was what really defined a bacteria as "Good" or "Bad" was if it was were it was supposed to be. The take away for me I needed to think beyond just nitrates and phosphates and nitrification, these systems really needed to be thought of as a single entity. Do what's best for the system first even if it doesn't help a coral. And on a more practical level I found using water from a "healthy" system would often help a system that wasn't doing so well.
So, my insistence on live rock is based not only on the opinions (based on their extensive experiences) of local and international experts from a wide range of backgrounds but also of over a couple decades of personal experience proving, to me at least, they were correct.
But that's all anecdotal and could be pure fabrication. I would point out, since then it doesn't matter where in the life sciences we look, whether it's our own physical and mental health or sustainable farming, having the right microbial balance, microbiome is often used now, is essential for a healthy ecosystem.
For visual reference I offer a video of a system setup using live rock but no skimmer as discussed by Delbeek and Sprung in Vol I and there's also the videos in my build thread of a system set up in '97. (There's more of my stuff at youtube.com/timfishone and in the next month or so I'll be starting a build thread of a solar powered pure Lee Chin Eng system for those who want to follow.)
A couple additional comments
To start with, we are clearly looking to the microbial processes in reef systems. The science looking at the various and conflicting roles of microbial processes on reef systems is VERY complex and is constantly expanding. A really good introduction for those interested is Forest Rohwer's "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas". I would strongly recommend reading it before reading the links I've posted below.
A second note, much of waht we've learned about microbial proccesses is using 16S rDNA. One of the surprises using 16 S rDNA testing has shown us is the vast majority of the microbes identified are unculturable.
So far Aquabiomics is the only one I've found to look specifically at what's happening with the microbial populations and live rock in aquaria over time usuing 16S rDNA. It's a good start but it is just a start.
Now for some additional links looking at microbial processes on reefs:
Indirect effects of algae on coral: algae‐mediated, microbe‐induced coral mortality
Coral seperated from algae with a .02 µm filter die. Treatment with aampicillan prevents death.
Benthic primary producers in tropical reef ecosystems can alter biogeochemical cycling and microbial processes in the surrounding seawater. In order to quantify these influences, we measured rates of photosynthesis, respiration, and dissolved organic carbon (DOC) exudate release by the dominant...
peerj.com
Effects of Coral Reef Benthic Primary Producers on Dissolved Organic Carbon and Microbial Activity
Algae releases significantly more DOC into the water than coral.
Benthic primary producers in marine ecosystems may significantly alter biogeochemical cycling and microbial processes in their surrounding environment. To examine these interactions, we studied dissolved organic matter release by dominant benthic taxa and subsequent microbial remineralization in...
journals.plos.org
Pathologies and mortality rates caused by organic carbon and nutrient stressors in three Caribbean coral species.
Starch and sugars (doc) caused coral death but not high nitrates, phosphates or ammonium.
Planar optodes were used to visualize oxygen distribution patterns associated with a coral reef associated green algae (Chaetomorpha sp.) and a hermatypic coral (Favia sp.) separately, as standalone organisms, and placed in close proximity mimicking coral-algal interactions. Oxygen patterns were...
peerj.com
Biological oxygen demand optode analysis of coral reef-associated microbial communities exposed to algal exudates
Exposure to exudates derived from turf algae stimulated higher oxygen drawdown by the coral-associated bacteria.
Algae-derived dissolved organic matter has been hypothesized to induce mortality of reef building corals. One proposed killing mechanism is a zone of hypoxia created by rapidly growing microbes. To investigate this hypothesis, biological oxygen ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Microbial ecology: Algae feed a shift on coral reefs
Human pressures on coral reefs are giving macroalgae a competitive advantage over reef-building corals. These algae support larger, and potentially pathogenic, microbial populations that are metabolically primed for less-efficient, yet faster, carbohydrate remineralization, perpetuating a...
www.nature.com
Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages.
Increasing algal cover on tropical reefs worldwide may be maintained through feedbacks whereby algae outcompete coral by altering microbial activity. We hypothesized that algae and coral release compositionally distinct exudates that differentially alter bacterioplankton growth and community...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Sugar enrichment provides evidence for a role of nitrogen fixation in coral bleaching
Elevated ammonium delays the impairment of the coral-dinoflagellate symbiosis during labile carbon pollution
(here's an argument for maintaining heavy fish loads if you're carbon dosing)
Labile dissolved organic carbon (DOC) is a major pollutant in coastal marine environments affected by anthropogenic impacts, and may significantly con…
www.sciencedirect.com
Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton
Coastal pollution and algal cover are increasing on many coral reefs, resulting in higher dissolved organic carbon (DOC) concentrations. High DOC concentrations strongly affect microbial activity in reef waters and select for copiotrophic, often potentially virulent microbial populations. High...
www.nature.com
Unseen players shape benthic competition on coral reefs.
Recent work has shown that hydrophilic and hydrophobic organic matter (OM) from algae disrupts the function of the coral holobiont and promotes the invasion of opportunistic pathogens, leading to coral morbidity and mortality. Here we refer to these dynamics as the (3)DAM [dissolved organic...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Allelochemicals Produced by Brown Macroalgae of the Lobophora Genus Are Active against Coral Larvae and Associated Bacteria, Supporting Pathogenic Shifts to Vibrio Dominance.
Diverse microbial communities associate with coral tissues and mucus, providing important protective and nutritional services, but once disturbed, the microbial equilibrium may shift from a beneficial state to one that is detrimental or pathogenic. Macroalgae (e.g., seaweeds) can physically and...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Macroalgae decrease growth and alter microbial community structure of the reef-building coral, Porites astreoides.
With the continued and unprecedented decline of coral reefs worldwide, evaluating the factors that contribute to coral demise is of critical importance. As coral cover declines, macroalgae are becoming more common on tropical reefs. Interactions between these macroalgae and corals may alter the...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Macroalgal extracts induce bacterial assemblage shifts and sublethal tissue stress in Caribbean corals.
Benthic macroalgae can be abundant on present-day coral reefs, especially where rates of herbivory are low and/or dissolved nutrients are high. This study investigated the impact of macroalgal extracts on both coral-associated bacterial assemblages and sublethal stress response of corals. Crude...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Biophysical and physiological processes causing oxygen loss from coral reefs.
Analysis of 60 sites in three ocean basins suggests that overgrowth of fleshy algae on coral reefs supports higher microbial abundances dominated by copiotrophic, potentially pathogenic bacteria via the provision of dissolved inorganic carbon.
www.nature.com
Because sponges are essential players in the carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus cycle(s) on reefs here's some links to research done with them.
Element cycling on tropical coral reefs.
This is Jasper de Geoij's ground breaking research on reef sponges. (The introduction is in Dutch but the content is in English.)
Marine sponges are ubiquitous colonizers of shallow, clear-water environments in the oceans (1, 2). Sponges have emerged as significant mediators of biogeochemical fluxes in coastal zones by virtue of respiring organic matter and facilitating both the consumption and release of nutrients (3, 4)...
www.pnas.org
Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges
(Chris Kenndall had a problem with low PO4 and had problems raising it with Neophos. Samples sent off showed phosphorus crystals developing in some of the sponges in his system accounting for at least some of his systems consumption.)
Coral reefs are highly productive ecosystems that raise a conundrum called “Darwin’s paradox”: How can high production flourish in low-nutrient conditions? We show here that in three abundant Caribbean sponges, the granules that have been commonly observed in sponge tissue for decades are...
www.pnas.org
Differential recycling of coral and algal dissolved organic matter via the sponge loop.
Sponges treat DOC from algae differently than DOC from corals
Surviving in a Marine Desert The Sponge Loop Retains Resources Within Coral Reefs
Dissolved organic carbon and nitrogen are quickly processed by sponges and released back into the reef food web in hours as carbon and nitrogen rich detritus.
PDF | On Jun 23, 2015, Jasper M de Goeij and others published 2013 deGoeij Science Sponge loop | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate
www.researchgate.net
Natural Diet of Coral-Excavating Sponges Consists Mainly of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC)
Coral-excavating sponges are the most important bioeroders on Caribbean reefs and increase in abundance throughout the region. This increase is commonly attributed to a concomitant increase in food availability due to eutrophication and pollution. ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
The Role of Marine Sponges in Carbon and Nitrogen Cycles of COral Reefs and Nearshore Environments.
Explore millions of resources from scholarly journals, books, newspapers, videos and more, on the ProQuest Platform.
search.proquest.com
And since we're discussing favorable and not so favorable bacteria here's a paper looking at how different corals and polyps are influencing the bacteria in the water column.
Aura-biomes are present in the water layer above coral reef benthic macro-organisms
As coral reef habitats decline worldwide, some reefs are transitioning from coral- to algal-dominated benthos with the exact cause for this shift remaining elusive. Increases in the abundance of microbes in the water column has been correlated with an increase in coral disease and reduction in...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
It seems pretty obvious to me our systems are far more complex than we may have imagined. They're certainly far more complex than I imagined at the beginning of the century or even than when I read Rower's book years ago. Maybe someday we'll have the understanding to artificially culture EVERYTHING in closed tanks but we still don't even know much of what's going on. BAs I see it, the best way to help get the proper microbial processes started is with with wild or maricultured live rock that has many of the organisms that are useful in moderating these processes and cannot be cultured.
Holy needle in the haystack, batman. It'll take forever to go through this material - 10x as long to figure out what it means.
I took a peek at one reference though. Here is an interesting passage:
It seems in terms of processing dissolved organic matter, sponges can play a beneficial. Not clear if it would be a supplement or perhaps a more effective way to process DOMs beyond what nitrifying bacteria and other artificial filtration would provide.
Assuming this to be the case (either supplemental or primary), indeed live rock that contains sponges would be beneficial in a reef tank. Have you run across any information that indicates how well sponges on live rock tolerate export from the ocean all the way to a reef aquarium?
Rohwer's book is a good introduction to DOC (DOM) on reefs, many of the additional links are research building on the research used for his book.
de Goeij's research showed some cryptic sponges remove the labile portion of DOC 1000X faster than bacteria (~20 minutes vs 20 days) and they can return dissolved carbon and dissolved nitrogen back to the food web in the form of cellular detritus with in hours while phosphates are being released as phospholipids into the water.
As far as survival rates of sponges in shipping it's really going to depend on how it was handled and shipped. If small amounts can be shipped in water that's best but may be impractical for larger quantities. If shipped in wet paper the time from collection to arrival needs to be as short as possible.
Rohwer's book is a good introduction to DOC (DOM) on reefs, many of the additional links are research building on the research used for his book.
de Goeij's research showed some cryptic sponges remove the labile portion of DOC 1000X faster than bacteria (~20 minutes vs 20 days) and they can return dissolved carbon and dissolved nitrogen back to the food web in the form of cellular detritus with in hours while phosphates are being released as phospholipids into the water.
As far as survival rates of sponges in shipping it's really going to depend on how it was handled and shipped. If small amounts can be shipped in water that's best but may be impractical for larger quantities. If shipped in wet the time from collection to arrival needs to be as short as possible.
Far as sponge survival rates during shipping go. I let an order or gulfliverock sit out of water for 10 hours after it arrived at airport not know any better.
I have a tub full of pineapple sponges I clear off every couple of weeks.
Don't mind theres nothing in this particular tray its been about a week since I cleaned it. System is around 8 months old.
Since 1993 I’ve had six tanks with live rock and two with all dry rock. Both methods work. Anecdotally, for me, the live rock tanks were easier and more successful. I don’t know why, and I have zero “data” to provide here. It’s just my preference. I do believe “mature rock” is critically important for a stable tank. Even that term is subjective however.
I’m starting a 215 right now and about to order 100 pounds from TBSaltwater. I’d suggest everyone try it both ways and make up your own mind.
Also if you have kids, the live rock experience is really a ton of fun for them. I remember it very well from my childhood.
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