Adding nutrients to my system. Your thoughts on my approach.

[mcarroll]

I also believe it may be the macro algae but I trim it back quite frequently and Cheato is just one of the species of algae in my sump. Maybe I should trim large quantities when I cut it out.

So, dosing fertilizers may be a good choice....I didn't intend to rule that out, just to explore the options, cuz you have a lot – more than I had even guessed since you have mangroves involved and the tank is (apparently) so old/mature as well.

But dosing ferts is a nice option also because you can start VERY SMALL and apply a lot of control to the process via testing frequency. So maybe dosing Potassium Nitrates|Phosphates is the best option?

Taking the macros out completely is a more do-able option than I thought....maybe even the preferable option if you don't consider any of your macros to be irreplaceable.

Make it a pure mangrove sump.

I also can’t limit the flow into the refugium or shut it off because it’s inside my sump. I could possibly limit the hours on the h380 but there are also a couple mangroves that depend on this light so that could possible pose an issue.

Shutting down the whole thing/removing the light might be an option to consider, if that's what it takes.

As for Dino’s, I don’t have any and have not seen any signs of them. I don’t believe I will have an issue there.

Risk is all we're talking about.

Dino's are suspected to be around "usually" but they are ordinarily epiphytic autotrophs...invisible among your macros (chaeto may be a preferred macro) until they are starved of dissolved nutrients to fuel/support photosythesis. That's what you want to avoid as that causes a bloom (putting it in a nutshell).

If you have a microscope, you should start looking at macro-algae samples to see which/if any/how many strains you have. (Probably lots of other cool things to see in there too since there's no sign of blooming going on.)

It may not sound like a lot of food to be called heavy, but my fish literally look like their bellies are going to pop because they are so fat haha.

That may just mean the food is going into the tank in too small a window of time.

It may call for more reliance on auto-feeding throughout the day. I have known folks to use two auto-feeders, if needed.

I am going to take your advice and start preparing foods. I have always thought about it, just never pulled the trigger. I do have a small culture of pods that I recently started but other then that, it’s all purchased frozen and dry foods.

This will be a bonus to the tank all the way around.

I would leave a good thing alone. JMO.

This can hardly be argued against.

I just don’t want to set up a quarantine and risk adding sick fish. My Naso and sail fin are 13 years old, the thought of them contracting something from a new fish scares me.

One thought on this....a tank full of rock-solid-healthy fish (and all that implies) is a pretty good insurance policy for a new, incoming fish – even if they're a little "under the weather". Check this out: Personal immunity versus social immunity (you might want to browse some of the other posts under the Fish tag while you're there too. I think you'd find several of-interest, but at least click through and read the original PDF on this one for sure!!

 

[BigJohnny]

"I want to get peoples advice on the best way to add nutrients to my system because my phosphates and nitrates are undetectable, and I feed a ungodly amount of food every day." - I cant tell you how many times I have seen people dose nitrate/phosphate or try to increase nutrients for this reason, even though the tank is doing well. IMO it is not a good one to try something drastic like adding a DSB (could end up doing the opposite of what your trying to accomplish or create other issues) or dosing nitrate/phosphate which could have severe consequences (or not but it can be risky). I see no issue with adding fish however as long as that wouldn't create overcrowding/compatibility issues in the tank.

I saw another post where you said "my sps have great color" and I saw pics and you have beautiful colonies, why would you change a thing? I get that you are trying to be proactive and that you think you are on the edge and want to prevent something from happening, but I would say that you are likely not on the edge at all. You said it yourself that you are feeding an ungodly amount and I assume you have a decent bioload due to the age of the tank (sorry i may have missed a post about that), and your corals look fantastic. SO, there are plenty of nutrients available for your system. So just because your nutrients are undetectable (are they really undetectable or just close? have you tried multiple test kits?) that doesn't mean you need to add more. You would start to see colors fading before you suddenly reached a "point of no return" or something like that where you would need to add a ton of nutrients, and I don't think you are close at all (did i say that already )

If i were you, I would simply continue doing what you were doing because it is obviously working, but add a fish or two to put your mind at ease. I would bet however that it will not alter your testable numbers much at all (maybe initially). Otherwise you are in fact, by definition, chasing numbers.

just my two cents.

 

[Livinlocal]

If you dont have color issues, why would you want to add more nutrients?
Being proactive can work in reverse. You could cause an algae bloom for no real reason other than trying to fix an issue that hasent happened yet. And hurt a perfectly good system!
Some systems cant handle detectable nutrients and bloom out! I would leave a good thing alone. JMO. Happy reefing!

I wouldn’t really say I am having color issues, but I definitely noticed they are not as colorful as they once were before my refugium was added, but I also experienced a exponential amount of growth when I added my refugium. It’s almost a catch 22 because I have faster growth but not as bright of colors, so I’m thinking I can keep the extreme rate of growth and get the color by adding nitrate.

 

[Livinlocal]

So, dosing fertilizers may be a good choice....I didn't intend to rule that out, just to explore the options, cuz you have a lot – more than I had even guessed since you have mangroves involved and the tank is (apparently) so old/mature as well.

But dosing ferts is a nice option also because you can start VERY SMALL and apply a lot of control to the process via testing frequency. So maybe dosing Potassium Nitrates|Phosphates is the best option?

Taking the macros out completely is a more do-able option than I thought....maybe even the preferable option if you don't consider any of your macros to be irreplaceable.

Make it a pure mangrove sump.



Shutting down the whole thing/removing the light might be an option to consider, if that's what it takes.



Risk is all we're talking about.

Dino's are suspected to be around "usually" but they are ordinarily epiphytic autotrophs...invisible among your macros (chaeto may be a preferred macro) until they are starved of dissolved nutrients to fuel/support photosythesis. That's what you want to avoid as that causes a bloom (putting it in a nutshell).

If you have a microscope, you should start looking at macro-algae samples to see which/if any/how many strains you have. (Probably lots of other cool things to see in there too since there's no sign of blooming going on.)



That may just mean the food is going into the tank in too small a window of time.

It may call for more reliance on auto-feeding throughout the day. I have known folks to use two auto-feeders, if needed.



This will be a bonus to the tank all the way around.



This can hardly be argued against.



One thought on this....a tank full of rock-solid-healthy fish (and all that implies) is a pretty good insurance policy for a new, incoming fish – even if they're a little "under the weather". Check this out: Personal immunity versus social immunity (you might want to browse some of the other posts under the Fish tag while you're there too. I think you'd find several of-interest, but at least click through and read the original PDF on this one for sure!!

Thank you for taking the time to give a detailed reply. It’s much appreciated. I honestly have not really looked into dosing fertilizers, but have been doing extensive research on dosing nitrates, which I decided to pull the trigger and I started dosing on the 22nd of June. After all of the research I decided to go with reagent grade sodium nitrate because I do not test for potassium.

I have thought about making it a pure mangrove refugium, but the amount of pods and mysis shrimp I have in there is unbelievable. Ever since the refugium got so large, my coral growth has been insane. I am just lacking some of the colors that I used to have. Not that anything looks bad, but being that I have had most of my corals for years, I know what they look like at full potential, and some of my zoas just aren’t there. I’m sure you know what I mean by this.


Unfortunately I do not have a microscope, but wish I had one. To be honest though, I’m not even sure what to look for, or what kind of samples to put in a petri dish.

 

[Livinlocal]

"I want to get peoples advice on the best way to add nutrients to my system because my phosphates and nitrates are undetectable, and I feed a ungodly amount of food every day." - I cant tell you how many times I have seen people dose nitrate/phosphate or try to increase nutrients for this reason, even though the tank is doing well. IMO it is not a good one to try something drastic like adding a DSB (could end up doing the opposite of what your trying to accomplish or create other issues) or dosing nitrate/phosphate which could have severe consequences (or not but it can be risky). I see no issue with adding fish however as long as that wouldn't create overcrowding/compatibility issues in the tank.

I saw another post where you said "my sps have great color" and I saw pics and you have beautiful colonies, why would you change a thing? I get that you are trying to be proactive and that you think you are on the edge and want to prevent something from happening, but I would say that you are likely not on the edge at all. You said it yourself that you are feeding an ungodly amount and I assume you have a decent bioload due to the age of the tank (sorry i may have missed a post about that), and your corals look fantastic. SO, there are plenty of nutrients available for your system. So just because your nutrients are undetectable (are they really undetectable or just close? have you tried multiple test kits?) that doesn't mean you need to add more. You would start to see colors fading before you suddenly reached a "point of no return" or something like that where you would need to add a ton of nutrients, and I don't think you are close at all (did i say that already )

If i were you, I would simply continue doing what you were doing because it is obviously working, but add a fish or two to put your mind at ease. I would bet however that it will not alter your testable numbers much at all (maybe initially). Otherwise you are in fact, by definition, chasing numbers.

just my two cents.

Thank you for the reply.

Even though I am feeding a ungodly amount of food, my phosphate is raising way higher than I would like it to be, and my nitrate is not raising at all.

Definitely undetectable, I used two different kits to make sure. The highest I have gotten it while having the refugium was .25

before my refugium I always had a little nitrates, and undetectable phosphates. This is when I have noticed the best coral colors, but my problem now is that I am feeding way more than I normally was trying to keep my nitrates up, but my phosphates are what really climbs. My theory is that if I don’t have to feed as much my phosphates will stay low, and I can just dose nitrates.

 

[dankreef]

Easy fix. Trim your fuge up really well, then put your light on a timer for less light. Dose some stump remover and feed normally for po4. Macro is savage at taking good stuff out of the water.

 

[mcarroll]

Unfortunately I do not have a microscope, but wish I had one. To be honest though, I’m not even sure what to look for, or what kind of samples to put in a petri dish.

One step at a time – it's not nearly as exotic as it seems on the surface. A $10-20 toy scope is literally all you need to get started. ($50 is all you have to spend to get a lot better.)

As for what to look for....take a detritus sample from your next bucket of used water change water, put it on the clear plastic slide that comes with the kit, and just check out what's there and marvel at it. It's a little like fishing, in that you don'y get a hit every time you cast...but when you get a good one, there's usually a lot of action.

If you get curious enough about what you're seeing, there are ways to get help ID'ing something. AlgaeBase, PhycoKey are two...you search PhycoKey by browsing photos from general to specific.

Photos are also relatively easy to get throug the scope with a cellphone and share here. There are some folks here who are really good at microscopes and identifying common critters.

I have a toy scope so far, myself. I know a little. But I did start this thread, which is one place you can start: Selecting a microscope

You don't really have to worry about petri dishes....your tank IS the petri dish.

 

[Livinlocal]

Easy fix. Trim your fuge up really well, then put your light on a timer for less light. Dose some stump remover and feed normally for po4. Macro is savage at taking good stuff out of the water.

I actually started dosing reagent grade sodium nitrate, I didn’t want to mess with the stump remover. Once I get the nitrates around 15ppm, I’m going to cut back the algae.

 

[Livinlocal]

One step at a time – it's not nearly as exotic as it seems on the surface. A $10-20 toy scope is literally all you need to get started. ($50 is all you have to spend to get a lot better.)

As for what to look for....take a detritus sample from your next bucket of used water change water, put it on the clear plastic slide that comes with the kit, and just check out what's there and marvel at it. It's a little like fishing, in that you don'y get a hit every time you cast...but when you get a good one, there's usually a lot of action.

If you get curious enough about what you're seeing, there are ways to get help ID'ing something. AlgaeBase, PhycoKey are two...you search PhycoKey by browsing photos from general to specific.

Photos are also relatively easy to get throug the scope with a cellphone and share here. There are some folks here who are really good at microscopes and identifying common critters.

I have a toy scope so far, myself. I know a little. But I did start this thread, which is one place you can start: Selecting a microscope

You don't really have to worry about petri dishes....your tank IS the petri dish.

Now you have me intrigued LOL I think I’m going to order one this week.

 

[Livinlocal]

So as a update for everybody following along, I started dosing sodium nitrate after all of the research. I started dosing on 22 June, and have slowly been raising my Nitrate each day. In the last nine days I have raised my Nitrate to about 5 to 10 ppm. It’s kind of hard to tell now that I’m actually seeing color and not crystal clear water. I attached a picture but it is a little deceiving becauseThe picture makes the water in the cup look a little darker than what it really is.

I will test again tomorrow at about the same time and see how much My refugium has exported. It’s hard to tell right now, but with my daily testing it looks like I am exporting .5 ppm daily.

 

[teller]

With the Salifert nitrate test kit I find easier to determine the nitrate value by viewing the side of the vial instead from the top.

 

[Livinlocal]

With the Salifert nitrate test kit I find easier to determine the nitrate value by viewing the side of the vial instead from the top.

It’s designed to be viewed from the top. In the instructions it says viewing from the side increases the amount, by what I believe; was 10x. Viewing from the side is only for ultra low nutrients.

Although I guess I could still do it from the side and do the calculations to figure out what the ppm is. That didn’t cross my mind

 

[teller]

Yes you are right but they state ultra low readings from 0 to 10ppm.
You divide by 10. If read 50 then means 5ppm.

 

[Livinlocal]

Yes you are right but they state ultra low readings from 0 to 10ppm.
You divide by 10. If read 50 then means 5ppm.

Ok that makes sense, I was unsure if you were aware of that or not. That’s good advice, I will measure it from it’s side tomorrow.

 

[MrPike]

I have tried this several times on different tanks under the theory that my tank lacked growth due to too few nutrients. All I can say is every time I have added nutrients I have been disappointed in the results. At this point, I kind of think that our tanks reach an equilibrium of organisms consuming these nutrients vs not enough organisms consuming them. For example, think if I were to judge whether or not you were starving based on what I saw(tested for) in your refrigerator, and your refrigerator was only full of beer, id assume(incorrectly) that you were starving, even though you go to the grocery store daily and eat everything and never use the refrigerator for storage.
Your tank could be using up these nutrients added by feeding and produced by fish immediately, and your test kits tell you that you have 0 nitrate and 0 phosphate and its just not so.

That being said, ill probably try adding nutrients again at some point to see if I get different results, but thus far, just has not panned out.

 

[Livinlocal]

I am already seeing positive results, so I believe it is working successfully so far, but only time will tell. I totally understand your analogy, but when my tank had higher nutrients, I was able to tell the difference. Again, not like my tank is doing bad or anything, but I can see a noticeable difference with zero nutrients.

 

[Livinlocal]

May as well post a few photos...

I’m really happy with the results so far

 

[LuizW13]

I'm glad you saw positive results. I'm in a very similar result- water too clean. I just starting dosing a few drops of Brightwell nitrate into my nano yesterday, cheers.

 

[emvanburen]

Thank you for your post.

I also believe it may be the macro algae but I trim it back quite frequently and Cheato is just one of the species of algae in my sump. Maybe I should trim large quantities when I cut it out. I also can’t limit the flow into the refugium or shut it off because it’s inside my sump. I could possibly limit the hours on the h380 but there are also a couple mangroves that depend on this light so that could possible pose an issue.


As for Dino’s, I don’t have any and have not seen any signs of them. I don’t believe I will have an issue there.

It may not sound like a lot of food to be called heavy, but my fish literally look like their bellies are going to pop because they are so fat haha. I am going to take your advice and start preparing foods. I have always thought about it, just never pulled the trigger. I do have a small culture of pods that I recently started but other then that, it’s all purchased frozen and dry foods.

I was running undetectable nitrate with chaeto on an h380 and I went from no Dinos to plague in three weeks... and dosing neonitro now.

 

[emvanburen]

Great thread. I’m in the same boat (except with Dinos) and dosing neonitro.