ALK drop, why?

NanaReefer

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I'm having a bit of an issue keeping my alk levels stable.
I was dosing BRS 2part alk only at 25ml daily, but it just kept raising the alk. So I stopped when it reached 9.0. Wanting to see how much it would drop over the next few days without dosing.
It has dropped from 9.0 to 7.8 within the last 4 days.
I'd like to know why the alk is so unstable? When both Ca & Mag are not.
How do I calculate the proper amount of ALK to dose to keep from getting these swings?
Thank you for any help. :)
 
My tank uses a ton more Alk then CA & Mag. As stuff grows larger it uses even more and the best way to figure out how much you need to be dosing to keep up with demand would be to get it at the level you want and keep it stable there for a few days. Then stop dosing for two or three days (I always use 3 days) then test again at the same time frame and divide the amount of change by the days since last dosed and that should give you a close ball park number to the amount of Alk you are using daily. Others might have a better way but this worked for me and I would be curious as to how others also do it! Good luck! :)
 
Reef Calculator - Bulk Reef Supply

Just use this calculator and adjust. As your tank grows, the demands will change. Just stay on top of it. It will be a headache trying to figure out what is causing your alk to decline.
 
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Even if your tank inhabitants were using the same amount of CA as Alk, the drop in Alk from 9.0 to 7.8 would show as only about a 14ppm drop in CA... within the margin of error of a test kit IMO. Mag would be even much less noticeable than that.

That said, without knowing what's in your tank it's impossible to say if that drop is abnormal. What is your CA, Mag, & PH? Do you notice any precipitation, especially on heaters or pumps?
 
Most people do not actually see less demand for calcium than alkalinity (and no one can detect real demand for magnesium in less than a few weeks since it is only 0.1 to 1 ppm per day). But alkalinity dropping is ALWAYS the first sign of inadequate supplementation if using a balanced additive system.

What they do see is an effect of water changes with a mix that contains a lot of calcium, allowing some people to maintain calcium but not alk with water changes,

or

What they see is the normal math of alkalinity and calcium, which "appears" to drop alkalinity faster.

Here's a blurb from one of my articles:
Apparent Excess Demand for Alkalinity


One of the most common complaints of new aquarists is that their aquaria seem to need more alkalinity than their balanced additive system, such as limewater, is supplying. While there are reasons this may actually be the case over the long term (these will be detailed later in this article), frequently these aquarists are seeing a "chemical mirage" rather than a real excess demand for alkalinity.


One of the interesting features of seawater is that it contains a lot more calcium than alkalinity. By this I mean that if all of the calcium in seawater (420 ppm; 10.5 meq/L) were to be precipitated as calcium carbonate, it would consume 21 meq/L of alkalinity (nearly 10 times as much as is present in natural seawater). In a less drastic scenario, let's say that calcium carbonate is formed from aquarium water starting with an alkalinity of 3 meq/L that it is allowed to drop to 2 meq/L (a 33% drop). How much has the calcium declined? It is a surprise to many people to learn that the calcium would drop by only 20 ppm (5%). Consequently, many aquarists observe that their calcium levels are relatively stable (within their ability to reproducibly test it), but alkalinity can vary up and down substantially. This is exactly what would be expected, given that the aquarium already has such a large reservoir of calcium.

So the first "deviation" from the rule of calcium and alkalinity balance really isn't a deviation at all. If an aquarist is supplying a balanced additive to his aquarium, and calcium seems stable but alkalinity is declining, it may very well be that what is needed is more of the balanced additive, not just alkalinity. This scenario should be assumed as the most likely explanation for most aquarists who should look for more esoteric explanations for alkalinity decline only if calcium RISES substantially while alkalinity falls. Likewise, if alkalinity is rising and calcium seems stable when using a balanced calcium and alkalinity additive system, the most likely explanation is that too much of the additive system is being used.


The real imbalance effects described later in this article take effect slowly, and are manifested over weeks, months and years. This short term "chemical mirage" caused simply by the mathematics of calcium and alkalinity additions can be seen in a single addition. Any effect that develops rapidly over the course of a few days is almost certainly not a true imbalance.


The following scenarios show what can happen to a reef aquarium whose dosage with a balanced additive system does not match its demand. Table 1 shows what can happen when the dosing is inadequate. Alkalinity drops fairly rapidly. After two days, many aquarists might conclude that they need additional alkalinity, when in reality, they need more of both calcium and alkalinity to stabilize the system.

Table 2 shows what happens when too much of a balanced additive is added. After a few days, many aquarists would conclude that alkalinity is rising too much, but that calcium is fairly stable. Again, what is needed is less of the balanced additive, not just less alkalinity.
 
Ummm ok sooo are you saying I should be dosing calcium too? Even though my level is reading 450? Mag is 1440.
Or should I stop dosing the alkalinity all together?
 
If you dose equal parts of a two or three part, and base the dose on alkalinity, the calcium and magnesium won't rise noticeably, but it is fine if yours drop a bit, so you can wait to dose any of the calcium and magnesium parts. :)

FWIW, just because you can dose different amounts of calcium and alkalinity doesn't mean it is desirable to continually jigger them around. Folks using limewater/kalkwasser or CaCO3/CO2 reactors never (or rarely) make such adjustments, and things work well for them. :)
 
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I don't have a reactor so that's not an option. But I do have an ATO and Kalkwasser. Would you advise I use the ATO/Kalk method instead of the equal amounts of 2part dosing?
 
No, I wasn't suggesting that. Just that equal parts dosing can work fine in most situations. :)

The two part is a perfectly good way to go. I supplied the recipe to BRS, so I do have confidence in it.
 
Perfect!! Mixed BRS 2part Calcium. So tonight I'll start dosing equal amounts of both. Thank you Randy for both your time and patience. I appreciate both very much :)
 
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I know it's to soon to tell yet but dosed 12ml of both Ca/Alk last night. Tested this a.m. And got Ca=400, Alk=8.4, Mag=1600 (did not dose) PH=8.0, temp=79.7, SG=1.025
I'll be dosing another 12ml this morning.

Should I be dosing them both at the same time or spreading them apart? Can I do all 24ml at once or is it better to break them up, dosing 2x a day? Why would my mag be that high?
 
The magnesium is probably high from the salt mix (assuming it is accurate).

What salt mix are you using?

I'd let one part of the two part mix in before dosing the other.

Spreading the alkalinity dosing out can be useful to reduce the pH spike that may come with each dose (depending on how much you are adding).

Using a pure carbonate supplement, boosting the alk by 1.4 dKH will boost the pH by about 0.35 pH units instantly. If you are adding 0.5 dKH or less at a time, that is fine from a pH perspective, although some folks like their alkalinity levels more stable than that.
 
I'm using Reef Crystals. Changing 10g Bi-weekly. RedSea Pro test kit.

Please forgive my lack of understanding. This has definitely been my weakest point in reefing. Main reason why I didn't upgrade sooner. Just knew I'd have to get into this area :( Was really hoping my WC would suffice.

Is it possible for you to just tell me what amounts of both I should be dosing & how often. Just to simplify it all for me?
 
I'm using Reef Crystals. Changing 10g Bi-weekly. RedSea Pro test kit.

Please forgive my lack of understanding. This has definitely been my weakest point in reefing. Main reason why I didn't upgrade sooner. Just knew I'd have to get into this area :( Was really hoping my WC would suffice.

Is it possible for you to just tell me what amounts of both I should be dosing & how often. Just to simplify it all for me?

I'm not convinced the magnesium is really that high. At this stage, I wouldn't worry about measuring magnesium. You can either dose it at the recommended rate relative to calcium and alkalinity, or just ignore it. In a new tank, not that much is used and Reef Crystals has plenty in it.

I'd pick a reasonable dose of alkalinity and calcium, and stick with it for a week and see what it does for alkalinity (measuring calcium is not critical either, as long as you dose both parts of the two part equally).

What size tank is this?
 
I'd pick a reasonable dose of alkalinity and calcium, and stick with it for a week and see what it does for alkalinity (measuring calcium is not critical either, as long as you dose both parts of the two part equally).

What size tank is this?

Sooo let me get this straight... I may sound dumb here. Let's say I'm currently giving my tank 35ml a day of alk, your saying that I should also dose my tank with 35ml of cal?
 
I'm also experiencing a depletion of alk pretty rapidly. About .5 dkh/day and calcium stays around 420-430 so felt there wasn't a need to dose cal.

Sorry didn't mean to hijack your thread.
 
How old is your tank, what type of substrate, have you switched salts, do you rinse your mixing container after use? There are a lot of variables here, also your mag could indeed be that high due to reef crystals, alk also drops with reef crystals. I started out with IO 10 years ago, went to oceanic and found my parameters to stay in check a little better, now I use Red Sea coral Pro, absolutely love it, 1.026 or 35ppt, and everything is rocking. My LFS will not use IO, they say it's only good for crashing tanks :)
 
40B/20L sump. LPS & 1 SPS. 2 fish :) 24ml reasonable?

Seems a tad high to me for that tank, unless you have a lot of coralline growth, but not unresonable. Dropping it to 20 mL per day and see what that does for alkainity over several days (not 1-2 days) could be a good idea. If alk is on the high side, drop it again, if too low, boost it a bit.

Here's my recommended dosage for my DIY two part, which is what BRS sells:



Suggested starting daily doses of this supplement in different aquaria.

Tank Description:........................Suggested Starting Doses:
Fish-only with live rock......................0.1 mL/gallon
New tank, few corals........................0.2 mL/gallon
Low demand...................................0.3 mL/gallon
Mixed tank......................................0.5 mL/gallon
Heavy demand (SPS corals)................1 mL/gallon
 
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