Amphidinium Dinoflagellate Treatment Methods

[Rwade]

Am I dealing with Amphidiniums, the photos I’ve looked at don’t exactly match up. I’m running UV, skimmer, Oxydator, stirring sand bed and adding MB7. Nothing really seems to help.

 

[Rwade]

Evidently I don’t know how to upload a video. Here’s a photo:

 

[ScottB]

Am I dealing with Amphidiniums, the photos I’ve looked at don’t exactly match up. I’m running UV, skimmer, Oxydator, stirring sand bed and adding MB7. Nothing really seems to help.

Sadly, your ID is correct.

On the bright side, they are NOT toxic. On the dark side, they are difficult to suppress.

The "consensus" treatment is to:
a) elevate nutrients NO3 >10 and PO4 > .1
b) Dose silicates so that diatoms displace them.
c) Leave the sand bed alone; you can't spook them out of there.
d) Be extremely patient.

 

[CDavmd]

Am I dealing with Amphidiniums, the photos I’ve looked at don’t exactly match up. I’m running UV, skimmer, Oxydator, stirring sand bed and adding MB7. Nothing really seems to help.

Yes those are large cell amphidinium. As I mentioned in my previous post UV will not affect them because they hug the sand granules. Blackouts don't bother them, and in my opinion I believe MB7 and similar products are counterproductive as they will cause a drop in Nitrates which we want to avoid in this setting.

What are your Nitrate and Phosphate readings?

My recommendations based on success in the past and what appears to be success again now in a new system:

1. Stop water changes, stop siphoning sand through filters, and leave sand alone for a bit.
2. Get Nitrate and Phosphate up, preferably with dosing rather than extra feeding.
3. Dose Sponge Excel (Silica) and attempt to get a 1:1 ratio with your Nitrate-Nitrogen as @taricha has stated early on in this thread. Example a Nitrate reading of 10 is a Nitrate-Nitrogen of 2.5 so dose Silicates to 2.5ppm level. You want to see a Diatom bloom. You will know things are working when you start getting darker brown on the sand and glass rather than golden color.
4. Increase flow and stirring sand is ok once in a while
5. Add amphipods and snails once you have the diatom bloom. Copepods don't eat dinos and Taricha feels they are not useful here but Amphipods/Isopods, snails, and grazers will eat the diatoms and in the process perhaps some of the dinos (not confirmed but has been suggested). The Diatoms clearly outpace the Dino's once they get established.
6. Continue dosing to maintain the Silica in a 1-2.5ppm range indefinitely.

Be patient, it doesn't get fixed overnight....over time you will see under the microscope the sand granules covered in diatoms and other benthic life and the amphidinium slowly decrease and disappear.

 

[DrMMI]

Yes those are large cell amphidinium. As I mentioned in my previous post UV will not affect them because they hug the sand granules. Blackouts don't bother them, and in my opinion I believe MB7 and similar products are counterproductive as they will cause a drop in Nitrates which we want to avoid in this setting.

What are your Nitrate and Phosphate readings?

My recommendations based on success in the past and what appears to be success again now in a new system:

1. Stop water changes, stop siphoning sand through filters, and leave sand alone for a bit.
2. Get Nitrate and Phosphate up, preferably with dosing rather than extra feeding.
3. Dose Sponge Excel (Silica) and attempt to get a 1:1 ratio with your Nitrate-Nitrogen as @taricha has stated early on in this thread. Example a Nitrate reading of 10 is a Nitrate-Nitrogen of 2.5 so dose Silicates to 2.5ppm level. You want to see a Diatom bloom. You will know things are working when you start getting darker brown on the sand and glass rather than golden color.
4. Increase flow and stirring sand is ok once in a while
5. Add amphipods and snails once you have the diatom bloom. Copepods don't eat dinos and Taricha feels they are not useful here but Amphipods/Isopods, snails, and grazers will eat the diatoms and in the process perhaps some of the dinos (not confirmed but has been suggested). The Diatoms clearly outpace the Dino's once they get established.
6. Continue dosing to maintain the Silica in a 1-2.5ppm range indefinitely.

Be patient, it doesn't get fixed overnight....over time you will see under the microscope the sand granules covered in diatoms and other benthic life and the amphidinium slowly decrease and disappear.

I went through 2 whole bottles of 125ml Brightwell Excel silica and my silica never measured anything about 0. I followed the dosing instructions earlier in this thread (1 drop/gal) and was upping the dose by 5 drops/gal every 3 days and nothing. I have a 300g system. Am I missing something? Is there another silica option that I can try? Seems like something in my system is using it up immediately and it's going to be too expensive to go through a bottle of brightwell a week.

 

[Rwade]

Yes those are large cell amphidinium. As I mentioned in my previous post UV will not affect them because they hug the sand granules. Blackouts don't bother them, and in my opinion I believe MB7 and similar products are counterproductive as they will cause a drop in Nitrates which we want to avoid in this setting.

What are your Nitrate and Phosphate readings?

My recommendations based on success in the past and what appears to be success again now in a new system:

1. Stop water changes, stop siphoning sand through filters, and leave sand alone for a bit.
2. Get Nitrate and Phosphate up, preferably with dosing rather than extra feeding.
3. Dose Sponge Excel (Silica) and attempt to get a 1:1 ratio with your Nitrate-Nitrogen as @taricha has stated early on in this thread. Example a Nitrate reading of 10 is a Nitrate-Nitrogen of 2.5 so dose Silicates to 2.5ppm level. You want to see a Diatom bloom. You will know things are working when you start getting darker brown on the sand and glass rather than golden color.
4. Increase flow and stirring sand is ok once in a while
5. Add amphipods and snails once you have the diatom bloom. Copepods don't eat dinos and Taricha feels they are not useful here but Amphipods/Isopods, snails, and grazers will eat the diatoms and in the process perhaps some of the dinos (not confirmed but has been suggested). The Diatoms clearly outpace the Dino's once they get established.
6. Continue dosing to maintain the Silica in a 1-2.5ppm range indefinitely.

Be patient, it doesn't get fixed overnight....over time you will see under the microscope the sand granules covered in diatoms and other benthic life and the amphidinium slowly decrease and disappear.

I just ordered Sponge Excel and will dose it, my Silicon reading on my ICP is 81ppb with a recommended 91ppb. I guess I’ll overshoot it a bit to help the diatoms. I have tons of Amphipods and don’t do water changes (Moonshiners Method). I don’t have many snails, mostly Ceriths, my Trochus keep dying. I’ll get more when I get diatoms going. Nitrates are 3-10ppm and phosphates are .06-1.3ppm (I dose to keep them up and feed LRS and Reefroids).

 

[Miller535]

Guys, lets not confuse things....UV does not work for Large Cell Amphidinium which is the topic of this thread. This type of dino hugs the sand granules and at night goes deeper in the sand. It does not enter the water-column and thus will not be affected by UV. Uv works great for Ostreopsis because it goes into the water column at night This should be discussed in the other dino thread.

Blackouts in my opinion just temporarily make things look good....and in the process you knock back the algae and diatoms you need to compete with the Amphidinium. The Amphidinium will simply outrun all the other lifeforms.

Similarly adding fresh clean sand will just provide Amphidinium empty new real estate to conquer. Remember Amphidinium multiply at a exponential rate. Once they get a foothold they will outgrow everything.

I have tried the bacterial recipes multiple times (Dr. Tims, Elegant Corals, etc) alone, in conjunction with blackouts, no skimming, UV, etc....never worked for long....things will look good for a week or two and then they come back.

What is working as was described at the beginning of this thread is silicate dosing and maintaining nitrate and phosphate at good levels. Get your silicates up....induce a major diatom bloom and you will finally have competition that will beat it out.

I did not see that you stated yours was large cell. my bad

I am confused though why you plumed your UV into your display at all, with large cell amphidinium.

 

[CDavmd]

I went through 2 whole bottles of 125ml Brightwell Excel silica and my silica never measured anything about 0. I followed the dosing instructions earlier in this thread (1 drop/gal) and was upping the dose by 5 drops/gal every 3 days and nothing. I have a 300g system. Am I missing something? Is there another silica option that I can try? Seems like something in my system is using it up immediately and it's going to be too expensive to go through a bottle of brightwell a week.

How were you testing? The Salifert test is useless, the only reliable test is the Hanna checker. For my 100 gallon system I was dosing pretty heavily.

I know it says 1 drop per 20 gallons per day will increase the silica in 20 gallons of water by .01- I wanted to increase by 0.1 so:

1 drop per 20 gallons x 10
10 drops/20gallons x 5 = 50 drops per day which is what I started with

I then tested the level daily and found that it was being consumed so I would increase by 50 drops per day more and when I got to the point of dosing 250 drops per day I saw a bump to 1ppm. I kept doing this until I got to 2.7ppm at which point I backed off until my system stays at 2-2.5ppm which turns out to be 80 drops per day.

Hope this helps

 

[CDavmd]

I just ordered Sponge Excel and will dose it, my Silicon reading on my ICP is 81ppb with a recommended 91ppb. I guess I’ll overshoot it a bit to help the diatoms. I have tons of Amphipods and don’t do water changes (Moonshiners Method). I don’t have many snails, mostly Ceriths, my Trochus keep dying. I’ll get more when I get diatoms going. Nitrates are 3-10ppm and phosphates are .06-1.3ppm (I dose to keep them up and feed LRS and Reefroids).

sounds like you're in a good ballpark. Ignore the ICP recs....get the silica way up and keep it at 1-2ppm indefinitely. There are several old articles and a good one by @Randy Holmes-Farley which goes over Silica in the reef tank. There is no apparent harm and only good as far as I can see....diatoms help with nutrient control, they serve as food to all the microfauna and some fish, and they will inhibit Amphidinium. Win Win Win....if it triggers a bloom of diatoms when things are normal and amphidinium is gone, then just back off for a few days until the bloom clears.

 

[MadTownFess]

Dinos recently came back after cleaning out my sump. I seem to have fought them back, but they are now being replaced by w.e this is. I still see a few dinos in there, but it's mostly something else. Only seems to be in the sand bed. Diatoms? Tank is 18 months old. 5 ppm Nitrate, .1 phosphate.

 

[sh@rkB@it]

I have been battling dinos for a few months and have finally gotten the upper hand. Here are the few things that I believe helped me keep dinos under control in my tank. Basic tank info: IM 20, bare bottom, 2 AI Prime HD and protein skimmer.

I never officially identified what kind of dino, I just knew it was dino

1. Raised NO3 and PO4 (currently NO3=20ppm and PO4=.15ppm)
2. Stopped water changes (going on 4 weeks now)
3. Slowly raised temp to 82(not sure how effective this procedure is)
4. Turkey basted rocks every day (first thing in the morning and evening)
5. Dose Vibrant 1ml per 20 gal(half amount recommended per clean tank, turned skimmer off a few hours after dose) each week
6. Bought a UV (AA Green Killing Machine 9watt)

Steps 1-5 slowed the dino down but the UV had the biggest impact. It's been about 3 weeks since putting the UV in tank and the dino is nearly all gone. I have been running the UV 24/7. I started noticing some green algae after the second week. It took somewhere around 2 weeks to really make a difference.

I have 1 mexican turbo and 4 trochus snails, which all do a great job. I have very little algae with those parameters. This has been a great thread that helped me navigate through the various steps to eradicate dinos.

 

[Dj City]

Ugggh..
We had a power outage yesterday. The power outage caused me to open the stand and canopy to allow air flow.
It also allowed a good amount of light into the tank for a few hours. This throws off the Dr. Tim's regiment.

I ended the blackout today. Regular light schedule resumes. Dosing of Waste away starts today.
I also installed the 4 DE filters today. I figure that if I have dead and dying dinos, the DE filters might help to catch them and remove them from the tank. I cleaned the glass and stirred the top layer of sand. I did not blow off the rocks. They did not look like they needed to be blown off.

I am fully prepared to do this whole thing over again when this regiment is complete according to Dr. Tim's recipe.

 

[cedwards04]

Today marks 4 weeks of trying the "ignore them and they will run their course" method. Keeping water parameters where they should be, dino's are still here. The only good news I can say is that around week 2 they seem to have plateaued and are no longer getting worse, they just don't seem to be getting better. I'll give it one more week before moving on to another method.

 

[Dj City]

The "do nothing" method absolutely does NOT work. Ignoring them won't make them go away.

 

[cedwards04]

The "do nothing" method absolutely does NOT work. Ignoring them won't make them go away.

For every method you find, you will find people that swear it works, and people that swear it doesn't. The truth is, nobody knows what works. Thats pretty obvious based on the number and size of threads you find all across the internet with people trying to figure it out.

I've tried about everything you can think of. Nothing has worked. Although everything I have tried, there have been multiple sources that swear it works.

So supposedly getting/keeping nutrients in check and leaving them undisturbed allows the tank to find its balance and they go away. That's the idea, with several people from this forum stating it is "the only thing that works". Bit alas, it doesn't appear to be working, just as nothing else I have tried since January has worked.

 

[ScottB]

Today marks 4 weeks of trying the "ignore them and they will run their course" method. Keeping water parameters where they should be, dino's are still here. The only good news I can say is that around week 2 they seem to have plateaued and are no longer getting worse, they just don't seem to be getting better. I'll give it one more week before moving on to another method.

I forget, are yours amphidinium?

 

[ScottB]

I forget, are yours amphidinium?

Oops. Disregard. I thought this was the "Are you tired" thread.
Amphids are clearly the most difficult. But they are also the least toxic, so, you got that going for ya.

 

[Rwade]

Day 4 of dosing Sponge Excel, 4ml per day on a 180 gal DT and still waiting on Salifert test kit. Diatoms are starting to show up, these are Pinnate Diatoms.

 

[CDavmd]

Day 4 of dosing Sponge Excel, 4ml per day on a 180 gal DT and still waiting on Salifert test kit. Diatoms are starting to show up, these are Pinnate Diatoms.

You might want to rethink the salifert test kit....its pretty useless. Best bet is to just grab a Hanna checker.

 

[Dj City]

I am cautiously encouraged.
I've had the lights on for 4 days now and no crazy re-emergence of dinos.
Granted, it's only been 4 days of light but usually 4 days of light is enough to begin to see dinos re-populate.
Sand is still white(ish). Rocks are looking good. No dinos so far on pumps or plumbing. Glass is clear. Sump and display smell way better.

I will continue the Dr Tim's regiment and keep an eye on things but this is looking better for now.

I have 2 days to go on the waste away treatment.
I still plan on doing the entire treatment again just as a knock em out the box measure but I probably will wait about a week or so before starting again. That should give me time to really observe the tank for dinos.