Another conversation about how to chemically reduce nitrates.

redfishbluefish · May 21, 2014

Pete polyp said:
I was not aware that the liquid methods removed much phosphate. I was under the impression pellets removed more.

I've stated this before.....regardless of the bacterial food source (biopellets, vodka, vinegar, etc) phosphates and nitrates will be "consumed" in a ratio of 1 to 16, respectively. This is biology....can't get away from it.....it is the way it is.....phosphates and nitrates are needed for life to happen. Please look up Redfield ratio to better understand what is going on with the "consumption" of the nitrates and phosphates.

redfishbluefish · May 21, 2014

Pete polyp said:
Good stuff to know fish, I appreciate it! I plan to go online with my pellet reactor in a month.

Good stuff Pete.....just make sure the exit port of your reactor is next to your skimmer....that's the secret to this whole thing working.

Pete polyp · May 21, 2014

I have a blue fin reactor and Dr. Tim's pellets. I'm currently in fowlr mode trying to rid the tank of possibly having ich.

TruRacr314x · May 21, 2014

I don't have personal experience...but I did purchase a BlueFin reactor and pellets about a year ago. It was sitting on the shelf and then one day a local reefer posted a WTB thread on our local forum. He was having Nitrate issues...burying the API kit as deep red as can be. I sold the stuff to him and he immediately put it into use. I don't know specifics, but in three months time, his Nitrates were below 10. He's made me wish I hadn't sold it to him....as I'm considering the addition of pellets after seeing his experience.

Pete polyp · May 21, 2014

I researched for a month before my build and chose this reactor with what I had learned.

hart24601 · May 21, 2014

I tired biopellets before and had some issues with them.

1 - You never know the dose. Sure you put in 1 cup, but what is the surface area? This is important because the pellets shrink as they get used so not only does the volume drop in the reactor but the surface area changes too. Add more to top it up, mixing sizes doesn't help figure out how much carbon the pellets are using. The flow also changes as the media gets used/replaced and that has an impact on the carbon dose.

2 - Pellets are complex carbohydrates. Ethanol is a simple molecule. How organisms metabolize ethanol is more consistent and what organisms use it is better understood. Pellets can fuel organisms that we really don't want.

3 - Desptie that it looks like pellets are confined to the reactor there is no reason to believe they or the bacteria stay there. With the flow rate and mechanical abrasion the majority of the organisms will be outside the reactor in the water like liquid carbon, but they are processing a complex carb stated in number 2.

4 - Cost. Vinegar and vodka are cheap.

As for nitrate and phosphate reduction solid and liquid should be about the same, but as stated pellets are hard to dose, if not impossible so if you dose to monitor nutrients it's hard to dial it in.

That being said pellets still work well, and if they are working that's great. Just my experiences with it. It helps I'm a microbiologist and work with many of these concepts professionally.

redfishbluefish · May 21, 2014

Hart, just to clarify, regardless or whose pellets you use, they are a polyester. The two polyesters that are used in all biopellets that I'm aware of are poly-3-hydro butyrate (P3HB) and 3-hydroxybutyrate-co-3-hydroxyvalerate (P3HBV) either pure or combinations thereof. They are both produced by bacteria and therefore readily consumed by bacteria.

The way pellets work effectively is that bacteria colonize the pellets and begin to consume this food. As they multiply (and in the process utilize phosphate and nitrates), they eventually begin to sluff off the pellets. They exit the reactor and are immedialely picked up by the skimmer to be exported out of the system.

It differs from the liquid methods in that they "feed" the entire tank causing cyano, algae, bacteria (good or bad) from bluming. If you are lucky enough to simply feed the good bacterial only, hopefully they get picked up by your skimmer and all is well.

You don't "dose" pellets.....you find an amount that maintains your tank at an acceptable level of phosphates and nitrates. That is why you want to slowly creap up to a level that keeps your tank happy. For me, this took three or four months before I found the correct amount.

Pete polyp · May 21, 2014

I think his issue with the pellets would be that there's no way to sit down and figure out the exact amount to use with a formula.

mike007 · May 21, 2014

Nitrates are caused by excess nutrients period. With proper protein skimming, water changes, circulation, live rock etc. you should not have nitrate problems.
I have found that most nitrate problems in a established reef tank are mainly cause by overfeeding whether that's from fish food or coral foods.
Vodka dosing and other carbon dosing regiments are a band aid. Yes they work but a properly maintained tank will not need these fixes. It is all about balance to many nutrients algae, nitrate problems.

Daniel@R2R · May 21, 2014

But if you intentionally feed a lot or have a heavy bioload, it's good to have another way to export nutrients. I wouldn't say carbon dosing is a bandaid since the nutrients are removed rather than covered up. Remember that there are 1000 ways to have a healthy tank. Just be sure whatever you do it's intentional maintenance and not something you're using short-term if your issue is caused by poor husbandry. Vodka dosing is not something anyone should think of doing short-term instead of correcting something else, but if it's part of your longer-term strategy and overall reefing philosophy, then go for it.

hart24601 · May 21, 2014

This is a good read. Skip to post 19 if you get bored.

Vodka, vinegar,biopellets and other organic carbon dosing - Reef Central Online Community

Pete polyp · May 21, 2014

If your nutrient import is more than your nutrient export than you will have nitrate. You can feed sparingly with being overstocked and have nitrate issues. You can have nitrate leach out of live Rick for long periods of time as well. Maybe you don't have enough live rock that can cause it too. There are many different reasons behind what causes nitrate besides overfeeding and poor husbandry. I have chosen to use biopellets because 1. My system is bare bottom. 2. I plan to push the limit of livestock well beyond what a system without them will be able to handle.

Daniel@R2R · May 21, 2014

Pete polyp said:
If your nutrient import is more than your nutrient export than you will have nitrate. You can feed sparingly with being overstocked and have nitrate issues. You can have nitrate leach out of live Rick for long periods of time as well. Maybe you don't have enough live rock that can cause it too. There are many different reasons behind what causes nitrate besides overfeeding and poor husbandry. I have chosen to use biopellets because 1. My system is bare bottom. 2. I plan to push the limit of livestock well beyond what a system without them will be able to handle.

^^^this is the point I was trying to make...but stated in a much better way.

Pete polyp · May 21, 2014

mdbannister said:
But if you intentionally feed a lot or have a heavy bioload, it's good to have another way to export nutrients. I wouldn't say carbon dosing is a bandaid since the nutrients are removed rather than covered up. Remember that there are 1000 ways to have a healthy tank. Just be sure whatever you do it's intentional maintenance and not something you're using short-term if your issue is caused by poor husbandry. Vodka dosing is not something anyone should think of doing short-term instead of correcting something else, but if it's part of your longer-term strategy and overall reefing philosophy, then go for it.

Well said

Pete polyp · May 21, 2014

mdbannister said:
^^^this is the point I was trying to make...but stated in a much better way.

I liked yours better... I quoted you before I saw your post

Daniel@R2R · May 21, 2014

Pete polyp said:
I liked yours better... I quoted you before I saw your post

Lolol Well, we can just quote each other! Ha ha!

hart24601 · May 21, 2014

You don't dose pellets because there is no way to control them. There is still an amount of carbon the system is using on a daily basis but you never know. The idea when they 1st arrived in the market was they stay in the reactor but that doesn't seem to be the case.

I don't see carbon as a bandaid. Well unless you consider everything we do a bandaid. We have a few cubit feet of water - the whole system is a bandaid.