Aquaforest 1+2+3+ or ATI Essentials?

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 7, 2018

BigJohnny said:
I meant the ions in your diy were balanced with eachother (proportional to make up of seawater) but don't contain every element in seawater so would not result in a complete ionically balanced residual saltwater. That's what I think esv is, ionically balanced proportions of all the elements from saltwater they deem important, but not necessarily all of the elements (but more than most 2 parts).

If that by definition means it's not ionically balanced, then I guess I must be wrong, but im pretty sure esv can truthfully claim it's ionically balanced if all elements are in correct proportions to each other like they would be in seawater, even if they don't contain all of the elements in seawater. How's that for a sentence?

Just my opinion for the reasons I stated. A) they don't state they include them all and B) companies would offer a 2 part equivalent version of a "classic balling" based method, imo.

Have you ever seen an analysis of any two part or balling product to see what is actually there vs what is claimed? I haven't.

ESV claims
"B-Ionic Calcium Buffer System is also formulated to provide all other important major, minor, and trace elements in the proper ratios to duplicate the composition of synthetic seawater."

Yes, you can focus on the word "important" to think they are short changing you on something you consider useful that they do not provide.

Do you have something in mind that you think they are neglecting? Do you have reason to believe that balling systems do a better job at that?

RobM · Apr 7, 2018

BigJohnny said:
Are you using the aquaforest 1+2+3+ recipe (minus reef mineral salt) to mix the components strong a,b,c,k with your brs calcium chloride/sodium bicarbonate/magnesium mix or are you just dosing them per the directions on the box?

used recipe on the box.

jsker · Apr 7, 2018

Killamanjaro said:
Awesome, I'll look into this.

I was initially wanting to go down the AF route but was put off by the costs for a 180G...All be it at the time I was looking at a Probiotic ULNS approach, glad I didnt go down that route. Balling/Balling lite is the way I'll be heading when the time comes, Just trying to understand it all.

PM me your email on I will send a shreadsheet with the recipe and mixing amount calculator.

BigJohnny · Apr 7, 2018

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
Have you ever seen an analysis of any two part or balling product to see what is actually there vs what is claimed? I haven't.

ESV claims
"B-Ionic Calcium Buffer System is also formulated to provide all other important major, minor, and trace elements in the proper ratios to duplicate the composition of synthetic seawater."

Yes, you can focus on the word "important" to think they are short changing you on something you consider useful that they do not provide.

Do you have something in mind that you think they are neglecting? Do you have reason to believe that balling systems do a better job at that?

No I havent seen any analysis, would be awesome if companies had to list all ingredients though wouldn't it! Could we add them to RODI water and do ICP then compare? That would be an interesting test if that would work. I realize ICP isn't 100% but it's the best we've got as hobbyists (that I know of)

No I don't have anything specific in mind. The ones im primarily concerned with are in both esv and AF, but we don't know what impact the others have and anything less than all will result in a gradual shift over time, especially when not doing water changes. Sure all will anyway because no formula is perfect, but like I said, I'm just trying to minimize the chance. I'm sure I could have great success with either but I had to choose one! Both great options.

Like I said, 1) they say important where balling classic based systems say all, and 2 components instead of more supports that in my opinion
2) higher impact on salinity

Those are my 2 minor reasons for prefering AF.

That's it! Just my theories/opinion

Killamanjaro · Apr 7, 2018

jsker said:
PM me your email on I will send a shreadsheet with the recipe and mixing amount calculator.

You’re the man! I’ll do that now

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 7, 2018

BigJohnny said:
No I havent seen any analysis, would be awesome if companies had to list all ingredients though wouldn't it! Could we add them to RODI water and do ICP then compare? That would be an interesting test if that would work. I realize ICP isn't 100% but it's the best we've got as hobbyists (that I know of)

No I don't have anything specific in mind. The ones im primarily concerned with are in both esv and AF, but we don't know what impact the others have and anything less than all will result in a gradual shift over time, especially when not doing water changes. Sure all will anyway because no formula is perfect, but like I said, I'm just trying to minimize the chance. I'm sure I could have great success with either but I had to choose one! Both great options.

Like I said, 1) they say important where balling classic based systems say all, and 2 components instead of more supports that in my opinion
2) higher impact on salinity

Those are my 2 minor reasons for prefering AF.

That's it! Just my theories/opinion

Just to be clear, I've got nothing against the AF system, but do they literally say "All" elements at seawater ratios? It seems like they are claiming something different:

https://aquaforest.eu/en/product/component-1-2-3/

"Chemical composition of Component 1+2+3+ is based on the method developed by H. Balling. The formula has been fine tuned in our lab and enriched with trace elements that are fundamental for maintaining marine aquarium organisms in good form. "

So it comes back around to really not knowing what exactly is in any of them, and what to use is either based on which company you trust most or reported user experiences.

jsker · Apr 7, 2018

Killamanjaro said:
You’re the man! I’ll do that now

Got it

BigJohnny · Apr 7, 2018

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
Just to be clear, I've got nothing against the AF system, but do they literally say "All" elements at seawater ratios? It seems like they are claiming something different:

https://aquaforest.eu/en/product/component-1-2-3/

"Chemical composition of Component 1+2+3+ is based on the method developed by H. Balling. The formula has been fine tuned in our lab and enriched with trace elements that are fundamental for maintaining marine aquarium organisms in good form. "

Randy your killing me. You asked for an explanation of my opinion (which I stated it was just an opinion several times) which I gave you, but you keep trying to pick it apart. What are you trying to accomplish here, or do you just love to argue lol : P

This is the last I'm going to say about it:

The whole point of balling and therefore any system based on balling is that it contains everything so that residual after dosing does not cause shifts. Considering all nsw is not the same, there is no 100% correct formulation, but a balling systems goal is to dose and only leave residual seawater composed how they want it (and likely very similar to their salt mix) to avoid shifts overtime. Tropic marins recipe is different than triton is different than ati essentials is different than AF. They all have a goal as to what their residual "nsw" should be. The difference between all of those systems and ESV is that they claim to be based on balling. ESV does not.

This is my opinion.

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
So it comes back around to really not knowing what exactly is in any of them, and what to use is either based on which company you trust most or reported user experiences.

Maybe for you, but not for me. I trust ESV and the others and they have great reported user experiences. The 3rd aspect is which you believe suits your methodology best. ESV does not claim to be balling or balling based. I believe a balling or balling based system is best for my situation.

Thanks!