Are Mercury-Containing Lights Doomed to Extinction?

[PaulErik]

I was working on product improvements and was a direct importer at one time. I’m still in close contact with the manufacturers and maintain good communications with everyone. Even taken trips to Europe and met in person with the manufactures.

 

[HuduVudu]

The aquaculture/farming industry is pretty large compared to hobby side.

California will implode if they are forced into LED only.

 

[PaulErik]

I am a farmer still but use all lighting technologies to this day. Mercury based lighting is hard to bet price wise and depending on the coral type the results speak for themself. Not just for growth but maintaining wild colonies (adapting to the aquarium trade) and producing vivid coloration too. I am not alone on this. Many farmers I work together with share the same experiences.

 

[Nonya]

Bulbs/lamps for our industry (aquaculture / aquarium) are exempt from local and foreign regulations. This is from someone that works closely with the manufacturers, exporters and importers.

Most people are not aware that bulbs for our industry are based off the ultraviolet lighting industry and not general lighting industry. As long as the demand is there the manufactures will continue manufacturing bulbs. Even specialty spectrum bulbs like aquarium bulbs.

Some background on the Radium bulbs. They were actually designed for architectural lighting but the aquarium/ aquaculture lighting took over the sales. It was PFO lighting and myself that brought these to the North American market. We did the ballast and lamp compatibly tests for many manufacturers and found which products were viable for the market.

Even ballasts are exempt from energy regulations. As all of these products are categorized as none generally lighting equipment. The aquaculture/farming industry is pretty large compared to hobby side.

That may be the case in the US, but the EC is banning mercury-based lighting, and is not granting exemptions when alternative lighting is already available. As at least four of the MH manufacturers are in Germany, I can't see how they can get around it.

 

[Nonya]

California will implode if they are forced into LED only.

California will likely be the first to convert. Go to Lowes and Home Depot and see what percentage of home light bulbs are already LED. In just a couple of years it's gone from a few LEDs to almost 100%. Even CFLs are almost gone already. I was really surprised.

 

[Nonya]

Go to Manila.

ROFL

How much is the tax?

 

[HuduVudu]

How much is the tax?

You don't get it.

Not everyone in the world lives like you. The sooner you understand this issue the sooner you can actually make a difference in this world.

https://pixabay.com/photos/philippines-slums-manila-321674/

 

[HuduVudu]

California will likely be the first to convert. Go to Lowes and Home Depot and see what percentage of home light bulbs are already LED. In just a couple of years it's gone from a few LEDs to almost 100%. Even CFLs are almost gone already. I was really surprised.

Because the "growers" in California care about laws. News flash they aren't buying from Lowes and Home Depot.

You really need to get out. You are caught in a bubble and you don't even know it.

Explore the world it isn't what you think it is.

 

[oreo54]

I am a farmer still but use all lighting technologies to this day. Mercury based lighting is hard to bet price wise and depending on the coral type the results speak for themself. Not just for growth but maintaining wild colonies (adapting to the aquarium trade) and producing vivid coloration too. I am not alone on this. Many farmers I work together with share the same experiences.

The current "push" is to ban all Hg containing lights under 175W with NO exceptions.
What year? Global?

People are really SLOW and it's dominated by $$$'s not health/lives.
The "big guys" are going to be replaced by market forces and $'s of course.
But that could take a long time. or not.. depending on the advancement of tech.

All is subject to the "if a viable alternate is available"
Currently Germicidal lamps and I assume hort/aquaculture still don't have a "viable replacement"

 

[Nonya]

Because the "growers" in California care about laws. News flash they aren't buying from Lowes and Home Depot.

You really need to get out. You are caught in a bubble and you don't even know it.

Explore the world it isn't what you think it is.

Your "grower" friends aren't included in this conversation. I'm sure they're switching to LEDs to stay under the radar of people watching electrical consumption, anyway.

Again, what's the tax?

 

[Nonya]

All is subject to the "if a viable alternate is available"
Currently Germicidal lamps and I assume hort/aquaculture still don't have a "viable replacement"

Germicidal? Not yet. Horticultural? The transition is already underway. Many companies, Philips included, are leading the way. LEDs offer the ability to change spectrum to maximize growth, flowering and fruit production. As they say, higher yields and lower production costs. They would't be manufacturing them if there wasn't a demand.

Greenhouse LED lighting | Philips lighting

Discover the innovative Philips LED lights that growers are using to successfully grow a range of crops in greenhouses.

www.lighting.philips.com

 

[Nonya]

You don't get it.

Not everyone in the world lives like you. The sooner you understand this issue the sooner you can actually make a difference in this world.

https://pixabay.com/photos/philippines-slums-manila-321674/

I've traveled the world. Your argument doesn't change anything. RoHS will change everything.

 

[Nonya]

I love this thinking. This is what comes from thinking that you can understand complicated supply webs. Life isn't Sim City. Unintended consequences are real. If we move to all LED we are going to swap mecurary for lead. Seems like a fair trade (sic).

Well, ballasts for MH and T-5s contain lead. Electronic ballasts are probably 99% Chinese, and are made using at least 40% lead solder.

 

[HuduVudu]

I've traveled the world. Your argument doesn't change anything. RoHS will change everything.

Then you haven't traveled the world. You wouldn't say that if you had.

You are just a true believer.

Jda said it and I agree. I'll wait for the immenent doom. You can come back and tell me so when it happens.

BTW I am just now setting to do MHs. I have been doing LEDs since they came out. I currently have two Radion xR30s. I live in warm climates and I don't like AC so heat has always been and issue, so I have avoided MHs. I am not looking forward to yearly bulb change out but the LEDs are just not living up to the hype and sadly it isn't because of the LEDs themselves.

I am also laughing because in getting rid of the mecury in the bulbs you are trading it for the lead in the circuit boards. Nothing is free and you don't get there are such things as unintended consquences.

I have been in this hobby for 40 years. The demise is always coming. I'll just keep on reefing like I always have.

 

[Nonya]

Then you haven't traveled the world. You wouldn't say that if you had.

You're the king of trolls. I've been to 6 countries in Europe, 4 in N America, 2 in S America, multiples in the Pacific, 3 in Asia, and Greenland.

BTW I am just now setting to do MHs. I have been doing LEDs since they came out. I currently have two Radion xR30s. I live in warm climates and I don't like AC so heat has always been and issue, so I have avoided MHs. I am not looking forward to yearly bulb change out but the LEDs are just not living up to the hype and sadly it isn't because of the LEDs themselves.

Sounds like you just can't figure out how to use them. I'm using Gen 3s and growing out beautiful SPS frags for my new 300G build.

I am also laughing because in getting rid of the mecury in the bulbs you are trading it for the lead in the circuit boards. Nothing is free and you don't get there are such things as unintended consquences.

Already responded. Your MH have mercury AND lead. Pile it on.

I have been in this hobby for 40 years. The demise is always coming. I'll just keep on reefing like I always have.

You haven't been in this hobby for 40 years. You wouldn't say that if you had (ROTFL). The lighting for reefkeeping hasn't been around long enough for anything but fish, so I'm guessing you're referring to goldfish?

 

[oreo54]

Then you haven't traveled the world. You wouldn't say that if you had.

You are just a true believer.

Jda said it and I agree. I'll wait for the immenent doom. You can come back and tell me so when it happens.

BTW I am just now setting to do MHs. I have been doing LEDs since they came out. I currently have two Radion xR30s. I live in warm climates and I don't like AC so heat has always been and issue, so I have avoided MHs. I am not looking forward to yearly bulb change out but the LEDs are just not living up to the hype and sadly it isn't because of the LEDs themselves.

I am also laughing because in getting rid of the mecury in the bulbs you are trading it for the lead in the circuit boards. Nothing is free and you don't get there are such things as unintended consquences.

I have been in this hobby for 40 years. The demise is always coming. I'll just keep on reefing like I always have.

You miss the point there is lead in your ballast IF there is lead on any circuit boards..

RoHS Circuit Boards​

We provide UL approved circuit boards with different types of finishing which meet the requirements of RoHS, REACH and other metal regulations. Technotronix is contributing to a low carbon footprint with RoHS complaint circuit boards and PCB Assembly.
Our PCBs, are lead free and also do not make use of the following substances:

• PBDE (Polybrominated diphenyl ether) compounds
• Cadmium and its compounds
• PBB (Polybrominated biphenyl) compounds
• Hexavalent chromium compounds
• Mercury and its compounds

3rd world countries can bake all the lead ect. they want.
Again, point is your MH's MAY have both lead and Mercury.
Well more ballasts are probably RoHS compliant then led circuit boards..

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See search terms.

And Again, as of now >175W merc lamps are "immune". There is no "equiv" though that will eventually be decided by courts and the market I assume.

The fact LED's are currently doubling the Lumen/watt output makes alternate lighting less appealing economically.

 

[ikaros70]

I don’t know what will go first but I am already starting to see MH become more scarce.
It is becoming more difficult to find Pheonix 14k MH bulbs which I have run for a long time.
My favorite bulb to date. Once sold by just about every retail store.
I have read online that the Pheonix 14k MH bulbs are being discontinued.
Hopefully, that isn’t truly the case.
Technically, you can still purchase them but I am starting to see less, with some retailers starting to charge $80 for a $40 bulb lol

 

[Nonya]

I don’t know what will go first but I am already starting to see MH become more scarce.
It is becoming more difficult to find Pheonix 14k MH bulbs which I have run for a long time.
My favorite bulb to date. Once sold by just about every retail store.
I have read online that the Pheonix 14k MH bulbs are being discontinued.
Hopefully, that isn’t truly the case.
Technically, you can still purchase them but I am starting to see less, with some retailers starting to charge $80 for a $40 bulb lol

Supply and demand. I liked my old 14,000K bulbs back in the day, but LEDs turned out to be a much better solution for me in the long run. I have no good reason to go back.

 

[HuduVudu]

You miss the point there is lead in your ballast IF there is lead on any circuit boards..

I am not missing the point at all. There is lead in all circuit boards, but because these things are useful to people then there will be a great outcry from people if something is done to ban circuit boards. This doesn't make lead any less dangerous. The only thing left to be done is to try to pressure industry to try to remove the lead. This is as usual, easier said than done. Leave it to the authoritarians to push for it anyway.

To my point. We went through the industrial revolution. Things got better. We couldn't be here without having come from there. It was a dirty nasty polluting time for sure, and I am sure we will look back on this time in a similar fashion. They didn't get better because some bureacrat said "Get gud". No things got better becuase there was a competition to create more desirable products. This happened incrementally. The old products that they replaced did not go away. Instead their markets simply shrank. I am sure there is still a thriving niche industry centered around buggy whips.

You can't mandate inovation. You can't shove it. You can't force it. Those that do fail. Even when a new tech wants to emerge, and in that cause mandating delays the innovation that so desperately wants to come.

I want electric cars. Not because of the ignorant argument of green energy, but from the very real issue of maintenance reduction. There are many other things that EVs bring. The other one is the consolidation of pollution, and thus allowing for economies of scale to deal with said pollution. This right here can cut tons of cost out of EVs because the pollution doesn't need to be dealt with on every vehicle. EVs are by and large powered with ineffecient grids and coal power, and use rare earth minerals mined with fossil fuels. Fine by me because the good is the victor over the perfect. Mark my words though it will be the government and the large car manufacturers that will get in the way of this truly awesome market innovation.

3rd world countries can bake all the lead ect. they want.
Again, point is your MH's MAY have both lead and Mercury.
Well more ballasts are probably RoHS compliant then led circuit boards..

My point is that third world countries don't care about the environment. They never will. I have lived in the PI, I understand the mentality.

Since so little of the world actually has wealth, all of the first world regulation is pointless. I can get VW bug parts from Mexico. Making it illegal only sets up black markets. This makes things even worse. The reason I brought up Bugs is because Bugs are cleaner running and cheaper than what was available before. Once again it is incremental improvment that changes things, not sweeping changes from bureacrats.

The right way to deal with this problem is innovation. Regulations are strangling business' and putting money in the hands of the corrupt. This just enriches the corrupt and limits business' ability to innovate. That innovation is what is going to solve the problem.

The fact LED's are currently doubling the Lumen/watt output makes alternate lighting less appealing economically.

I can grow coral with LEDs. I am even happy with the growth. The market hasn't figured out that that isn't the problem of output but something else. Doubling output isn't going to make LEDs more desirable. Until the market figures out the real problem then they will not be able to grow further.

Ultimately my point is that people think laws stop things. They think that it is all settled while the people that want things will ultimately get what they want.

Case in point my wife occasionally needs an inhaler. Quick trip to the Mexican border and I can get her what she needs that is the same quality at a fraction of the price. The entire bureacracy set up to ostensibaly to protect her has fallen under regulatory capture and the only reason for it now is to protect the profit of a few at her expense. This is always the case.

Fortunately, I have seen this before. This hobby doesn't have clout and gets shoved around quite often. It will come and it will go but there will always be the ignorant to push well meaning regulations.

I have put my money on the table. I have skin in the game. I made my choice based on my understanding. If I am wrong then I will lose my money, but I wouldn't be betting if I thought I was wrong.

 

[Nonya]

Fortunately, I have seen this before. This hobby doesn't have clout and gets shoved around quite often. It will come and it will go but there will always be the ignorant to push well meaning regulations.

The clout comes from hobbyists buying what we/they think is the best and cheapest (alright, maybe just the best) to grow awesome corals. In many cases, it's based on fad. In others, it's based on anecdotal, and ultimately, observable results. Sugar, followed by VSV, followed by commercially sold carbon sources is one example. "Hey, my polyps extend when I add sugar to my tank!"