Are Natural Systems Smart

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On the subject of bias, I’ve always really liked the following quote by William Kingdon Clifford. It’s relevant and significant no matter the worldview each one of us brings with us into this discussion or any other.


"No real belief, however trifling and fragmentary it may seem, is ever truly insignificant; it prepares us to receive more of its like, confirms those which resembled it before, and weakens others; and so gradually it lays a stealthy train in our inmost thoughts, which may someday explode into overt action, and leave its stamp upon our character."
 
Materialists never seem to consider the inherent contradiction in their argument. If we are to accept that this world consists only of the random and meaningless interaction of mass and energy, then human thought and logic in our brains must also consist only of random and meaningless interaction of mass and energy. Consequently there is no reason to believe that our logic is true - anymore than determining what is true by which way the wind blows. These respected scientists have obliterated the very foundation of the science they hold so dear. If science is to carry any truth, then our human logic must come from something higher than matter and energy.
 
It is also a great book/read by Bernard Goldberg. Bias: As CBS Insider Exposes How the Media Distort the News. I was actually intrigued by it in 2001 or so when I saw the president carrying it. Fitting in todays day and age with social media and search engines.

Edit: Interesting enough as this thread is back to the OP - sounds like you have a pretty interesting job never the less.
 
Here's something to lighten things up a little

This is a story about the rise of the machines

And our belief in the balance of nature

How the idea of the ecosystem was invented

How it inspired us

And how it wasn’t even true

All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace - Episode 2 - The Use and Abuse of Vegetational Concepts

can't post a successful link to the video, just google it, its well worth watching
 
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Another quote in a great book: The Avant Garde Marine Aquarist
"The end of the universe is a brick wall with tar paper on top, beyond that is strawberry fields forever. " :rolleyes:
 
@Paul B
Just finished hosting an open house. I made my gumbo the day before to allow time for flavors to gel. The celebration grew so I doubled my biggest previous largest gumbo. It’s the biggest gumbo that I have ever stirred up: 25 pounds of whole chickens, 5 pounds of smoked jalapeños sausage and 5 pounds of peppers & onions, then you make the roux. It is quite possible the best gumbo that I ever made. I am practicing to host a family reunion for 50 in Pittsburg this coming Spring. After your knee replacement and physical therapy, if I show up at your place with a sack of crawfish, do you have stock pot with a basket?
 
@Paul B
Just finished hosting an open house. I made my gumbo the day before to allow time for flavors to gel. The celebration grew so I doubled my biggest previous largest gumbo. It’s the biggest gumbo that I have ever stirred up: 25 pounds of whole chickens, 5 pounds of smoked jalapeños sausage and 5 pounds of peppers & onions, then you make the roux. It is quite possible the best gumbo that I ever made. I am practicing to host a family reunion for 50 in Pittsburg this coming Spring. After your knee replacement and physical therapy, if I show up at your place with a sack of crawfish, do you have stock pot with a basket?

I went once dance practice for Zydeco . Live band. Crazy man!!!!! Loved it.:)
 
Patrick, sounds great, I will eat it, but whats for the rest of the people?
 
Materialists never seem to consider the inherent contradiction in their argument. If we are to accept that this world consists only of the random and meaningless interaction of mass and energy, then human thought and logic in our brains must also consist only of random and meaningless interaction of mass and energy. Consequently there is no reason to believe that our logic is true - anymore than determining what is true by which way the wind blows. These respected scientists have obliterated the very foundation of the science they hold so dear. If science is to carry any truth, then our human logic must come from something higher than matter and energy.

Thank you for that wisdom. Many never choose to see the reality you described. Honesty can be painful or as the old addage says, “The Truth Hurts”. Yet, for me, “The Truth Shall Set You Free”.

Reality & projection are both very real. Discernment is a gift of Wisdom. @DCR, you have both, kudos to you.
 
Patrick, sounds great, I will eat it, but whats for the rest of the people?

For the rest of the people, you sir will supply abundant “ghost shrimp” for a krill soup recipe that we will conjure up between Italian & Cajun cuisine. I know, we can deliver something that is bodacious.
 
Thank you for that wisdom. Many never choose to see the reality you described. Honesty can be painful or as the old addage says, “The Truth Hurts”. Yet, for me, “The Truth Shall Set You Free”.

Reality & projection are both very real. Discernment is a gift of Wisdom. @DCR, you have both, kudos to you.
Thanks, but I cannot claim it as an original thought. I lifted it from C.S. Lewis in his book "Miracles", in the chapter titled "The Cardinal Difficulty with Naturalism". A great read from a very serious thinker and philosopher.
 
I went once dance practice for Zydeco . Live band. Crazy man!!!!! Loved it.:)


http://www.zydecoblanco.com/who

https://www.thewhitehorseaustin.com/

If you want to have a good time, checkout either of those links.

For me, Zydeco Blanco is the bomb. They were the “music theme” for “NawOrleans Night” on Friday at
“The Nutty Brown Cafe”. The food options were focused on varying aspects of Creole & Cajun cooking and was superb, especially with the outside dining ambience of a Texas Hill Country sunset underneath 500 year old live oaks. At 7PM, Zydeco Blanco changed the tempo with their own style of zydeco, rockabilly, and blues. I live 5 minutes from the Nutty Brown Cafe. On their July 4 concert, Ian seethefirewors from my house.

For your Zydeco dance lessons, I suggest Tuesday at 6PM at The White Horse Saloon. They have live music seven days a week from 2PM till AM. My friend, they will dance your shoes off there.
 
I grew up in a baptist household. It was ok. I turned my back on the church because of the lies and hypocrisy, found even within multiple churches...do as I say, not as I do.

There is no proof whatsoever in favour of a divine creator and also no proof of there not being one.

My personal view is that if there is a god then it doesn’t care. It wouldn’t allow the harm and destruction, both natural and manmade to exist.

Here is something for you to ponder over the next time you are in church: You have an all powerful creator. He created the cosmos and all of its wonders. He loves you unconditionally EXCEPT if you do a couple things wrong, in which case you will suffer for eternity.....but he loves you. Oh this divine creator also is the most incredible genius to design and plan to perfection everything, except for one flaw...he sucks with money. So badly in fact that he constantly needs yours.

The bible is rife with inconsistencies. It would exceed my word count on here a thousand times over to list them. I have no experience with other religions to argue about them.
 
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When I think of “natural systems”, three things come to mind: Minimalistic, Laissez Faire and Economical. I believe in a natural order of things as determined by a Creator. For discussions sake, I choose to call the process “Intelligent Design”. As a senior subsea engineer, I designed deepwater Blowout Preventor control systems using Multiplexing technology from the phone company integrated with Navy acoustic control as a back up system. In the case of emergency operations, we had four seperate recovery systems, including a remote operated robot in 10,000’ of water. When operations are critical, like flying an airplane or sitting on top of a 15,ooo psi BOP, back up systems are not options. Back up systems are necessities for your existence. So it is in Nature with “Intelligent Design”. I will attemp with help from the Network, to illuminate how the “Coral Holobiont” is a community that is dynamic, complex and holistic in nature. Biochemistry is complex. Dana Riddle articles at Advanced Aquaria helped me to see how carbon dioxide gas dissolves in water to contribute to carbonate & bicarbonate alkalinity which combine during photosynthesis to produce glucose which is carbon for the reef. When that process happened, inorganic nutrients were assimilated in organic biomass of glucose. Carbon dioxide gas can go both ways in the process depending on partial pressure of the gas and concentration of carbon dioxide gas in water. The process is controlled by Dynamic Equilibrium following the “laws of nature” as installed by Intelligent Design. As a control systems engineer, simplicity is paramount in design criteria. The fewest things that can fail is the motto. Nature is much more complex. Randy Holmes Farley, in an article, described how cynobacteria could dissolve calcium phosphate in substrate using a biofeedback loop to complete the process. Imagine that, smart bacteria.

Within the coral holobiont there is communication between bacteria, algae and coral. My cryptic sponge friend, Timfish, feeds me knowledge, thus I now have become a sponge. Last week he visited and made me aware of laboratory controlled experiment demonstrating how coral selected a certain species of bacteria, I assume by size. Not only did coral select specific bacteria to harvest, the coral gave off growth enzymes that increased populations of only that one strain of bacteria. Did that coral just manipulate its environment? Sounds like a Master Gardner.

I am on this journey to learn. Please join in the process. In fact let’s have a fun time with it.

Laissez les bonne temps roulee,
Patrick
Nature's design is "what is optimal for survival within the confines of prexisting biology", which is not always intelligent, just more adaptive than the next guy.

If design was intelligent, our food/drink hole would not also be our breathing hole.
 
Why is this in reef discussion? Can't say I care for it here.


Same argument as when people worshipped a gods for pulling the sun up in the morning. It was too complex to understand at the time.

But hey, as long as people don't hurt other people I don't care what they believe if it's flat Earth, Scientology, or pray to *something* to make it rain because the concept of rain is too complex for any other explanation.
 
If science is to carry any truth, then our human logic must come from something higher than matter and energy.

100% disagree with this absolute conclusion. Logic does not support the conclusions you make. Scientist most certainly understand and accept that there is no such thing as absolute truth (the basis of your logic), which is why science distinguishes between theory and law. Theories can be generally accepted and can be useful in predictive results. And both theories and laws can be disproven by evidence. In science, truth is relative in it's predictability and so we use these theories and laws based on the relative nature of the confidence of their being tested true over and over again. I will live today in confidence the sun will rise tomorrow based on the incredibly high degree of that predictability of science. Science also says that there is a possibility that this will not happen, but for all practicable purposed we can treat it as truth. I believe your logic conveniently ignores this with the wind blowing analogy.

See, here is the rub. A scientist can accept the possibility that religion is correct about intelligent design and will forever continue to seek the answers. Since religion is based on semantics and faith, religion dictates that their conclusion can never be wrong or challenged.
 

IF YOU HAD TO TAKE A REEFING EXAM, WOULD YOU PASS?

  • Yes!

    Votes: 32 45.7%
  • Not yet, but I have one that I want to buy in mind!

    Votes: 9 12.9%
  • No.

    Votes: 26 37.1%
  • Other (please explain).

    Votes: 3 4.3%
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