Are Natural Systems Smart

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OMG then whales and dolphins are Gods. :eek:



I agree. Unless we are discussing Angelfish


I think fish and religion have been forever linked, especially on Christmas eve.


BTW, I recently found out that killer and pilot whales are not whales but are dolphins. I guess Shamu should have been named Flipper . I did know that whales evolved from land mammals since the have hip bones. Both facts I learned from school kids.
 
100% disagree with this absolute conclusion. Logic does not support the conclusions you make. Scientist most certainly understand and accept that there is no such thing as absolute truth (the basis of your logic), which is why science distinguishes between theory and law. Theories can be generally accepted and can be useful in predictive results. And both theories and laws can be disproven by evidence. In science, truth is relative in it's predictability and so we use these theories and laws based on the relative nature of the confidence of their being tested true over and over again. I will live today in confidence the sun will rise tomorrow based on the incredibly high degree of that predictability of science. Science also says that there is a possibility that this will not happen, but for all practicable purposed we can treat it as truth. I believe your logic conveniently ignores this with the wind blowing analogy.

See, here is the rub. A scientist can accept the possibility that religion is correct about intelligent design and will forever continue to seek the answers. Since religion is based on semantics and faith, religion dictates that their conclusion can never be wrong or challenged.


You can disagree all you want. Your disagreement does not change reality. Neither does your disagreement change Truth. Only your “perception of truth” can be changed.

Your analogy of science as “truth is relative” shows a major flaw in objectivity. The Truth is not relative. Our understanding may be relative, but the Truth does not change.
 
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Another quote in a great book: The Avant Garde Marine Aquarist
"The end of the universe is a brick wall with tar paper on top, beyond that is strawberry fields forever. " :rolleyes:


No brick wall with tar for me. When you were doing the Beatles, I was with Pink Floyd on the Dark Side of the Moon.
 
You can disagree all you want. Your disagreement does not change reality. Neither does your disagreement change Truth. Only your “perception of truth” can be changed.

Your analogy of science as “truth is relative” shows a major flaw in objectivity. The Truth is not relative. Our understanding may be relative, but the Truth is not relative.

You omitted my qualifier about truth and the premise about science and truth to argue against a context I didn't say. I was speaking of truth in the context that we cannot know absolute truth which is why in science truth is relative in it's predictability. It is accepted in science that everything is not absolute in that there is always the possibility that any theory or law can eventually be proven wrong. Thus yes Truth by definition is not relative, but in practicable application we do accept very highly predicable events as truth. Religion, does not use logic, but rather semantics. Thus faith can be a limiting factor in the pursuit of knowledge.


In science, shcrodingers cat logic says that both darwinism and intelligent design can both be possibilities until the proverbial box is open (notwithstanding that science has pretty much disproved a lot of the way religion had accounted for intelligent design). In religion, you never open the box and merely declare only one possibility.

See, I can accept that you might be right while embracing the pursuit of science that seeks to open that box. You on the other hand, and I say this respectfully, have already made your decision and erroneously mocked scientists with snarky remarks comparing their logic about evolution as being like the wind blowing.

It's like you think if one is a scientist they cannot accept that possibility of a Creator because they seek evidence that might contradict their faith. (and I understand that some scientist can be snarky about their dismissal of a Creator - which they are really not being true to scientific theory)
 
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this site shows this http://www.seafriends.org.nz/oceano/seawater.htm

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You omitted my qualifier about truth and the premise about science and truth to argue against a context I didn't say. I was speaking of truth in the context that we cannot know absolute truth which is why in science truth is relative in it's predictability. It is accepted in science that everything is not absolute in that there is always the possibility that any theory or law can eventually be proven wrong. Thus yes Truth by definition is not relative, but in practicable application we do accept very highly predicable events as truth. Religion, does not use logic, but rather semantics. Thus faith can be a limiting factor in the pursuit of knowledge.


In science, shcrodingers cat logic says that both darwinism and intelligent design can both be possibilities until the proverbial box is open (notwithstanding that science has pretty much disproved a lot of the way religion had accounted for intelligent design). In religion, you never open the box and merely declare only one possibility.

See, I can accept that you might be right while embracing the pursuit of science that seeks to open that box. You on the other hand, and I say this respectfully, have already made your decision and erroneously mocked scientists with snarky remarks comparing their logic about evolution as being like the wind blowing.

It's like you think if one is a scientist they cannot accept that possibility of a Creator because they seek evidence that might contradict their faith. (and I understand that some scientist can be snarky about their dismissal of a Creator - which they are really not being true to scientific theory)

As I read your post, I sense you may be a methodical scientist in your field of study. I assure you, your understanding of my Faith is lacking in depth. I read scientific articles often and always consider new knowledge.

I don’t consider the excercise of my belief system to be a religion. I consider that my choices in life are influenced by a spiritual relationship with a Creator. Each individual, as a part of Creation merits to be treated with the dignity of being my brother, “To love one another as myself”. The Golden Rule motto serves as a guide to relationships with others. So, to address your comment about religion, I am not religious, I have a spiritual relationship with the Creator of the Universe. It is a journey to grow in maturity, not a place to stagnate.
 
100% disagree with this absolute conclusion. Logic does not support the conclusions you make. Scientist most certainly understand and accept that there is no such thing as absolute truth (the basis of your logic), which is why science distinguishes between theory and law. Theories can be generally accepted and can be useful in predictive results. And both theories and laws can be disproven by evidence. In science, truth is relative in it's predictability and so we use these theories and laws based on the relative nature of the confidence of their being tested true over and over again. I will live today in confidence the sun will rise tomorrow based on the incredibly high degree of that predictability of science. Science also says that there is a possibility that this will not happen, but for all practicable purposed we can treat it as truth. I believe your logic conveniently ignores this with the wind blowing analogy.

See, here is the rub. A scientist can accept the possibility that religion is correct about intelligent design and will forever continue to seek the answers. Since religion is based on semantics and faith, religion dictates that their conclusion can never be wrong or challenged.

As a scientist by education and profession, I would like to say that the absolute truth most certainly does exist. Science will never reveal it to us, because science is only a language that we use to describe things that we observe, and by the definition of itself, science is not capable of anything more. I see many flawed explanations of what the scientific method is. I have studied it closely. I believe that it is nothing more than a process of investigation that does not provide conclusions, or proof. It only supports, or does not support our hypotheses.

"Believe" being the key word...

Anyone's perception of reality is their own, the truth is another matter entirely.
 
As I read your post, I sense you may be a methodical scientist in your field of study. I assure you, your understanding of my Faith is lacking in depth. I read scientific articles often and always consider new knowledge.

I don’t consider the excercise of my belief system to be a religion. I consider that my choices in life are influenced by a spiritual relationship with a Creator. Each individual, as a part of Creation merits to be treated with the dignity of being my brother, “To love one another as myself”. The Golden Rule motto serves as a guide to relationships with others. So, to address your comment about religion, I am not religious, I have a spiritual relationship with the Creator of the Universe. It is a journey to grow in maturity, not a place to stagnate.

I am not in any scientific field. Just enjoy healthy discussion about science and religion. I look to understand the differences and find common ground.
 
I think fish and religion have been forever linked, especially on Christmas eve.


BTW, I recently found out that killer and pilot whales are not whales but are dolphins. I guess Shamu should have been named Flipper . I did know that whales evolved from land mammals since the have hip bones. Both facts I learned from school kids.

This is a very good example of my previous post.

Killer whales and pilot whales are dolphins because of the way we have chosen to describe such things.

"Knowing" that they have evolved from land mammals because they "have hip bones" is where we have left the rails of science and have shot down the rabbit hole of drawing opinionated conclusions.
 
This is a very good example of my previous post.

Killer whales and pilot whales are dolphins because of the way we have chosen to describe such things.

"Knowing" that they have evolved from land mammals because they "have hip bones" is where we have left the rails of science and have shot down the rabbit hole of drawing opinionated conclusions.



lol sorry, I should have said "generally accepted"
 
100% disagree with this absolute conclusion. Logic does not support the conclusions you make. Scientist most certainly understand and accept that there is no such thing as absolute truth (the basis of your logic), which is why science distinguishes between theory and law. Theories can be generally accepted and can be useful in predictive results. And both theories and laws can be disproven by evidence. In science, truth is relative in it's predictability and so we use these theories and laws based on the relative nature of the confidence of their being tested true over and over again. I will live today in confidence the sun will rise tomorrow based on the incredibly high degree of that predictability of science. Science also says that there is a possibility that this will not happen, but for all practicable purposed we can treat it as truth. I believe your logic conveniently ignores this with the wind blowing analogy.

See, here is the rub. A scientist can accept the possibility that religion is correct about intelligent design and will forever continue to seek the answers. Since religion is based on semantics and faith, religion dictates that their conclusion can never be wrong or challenged.
I think you misunderstand my point. I am not saying that science cannot provide insight into truth. I am an engineer of almost 40 years and I believe that it can. I am only saying that a purely materialistic world view does not allow for it. If materialism is true, then all science is reduced to mere opinion of the individual caused by the unique random interactions of matter and energy in his or her brain. There can be no valid standard of reason or logic to discern truth from falsehood. Only if our reasoning and logic comes from a higher source can it be valid.
 
I think you misunderstand my point. I am not saying that science cannot provide insight into truth. I am an engineer of almost 40 years and I believe that it can. I am only saying that a purely materialistic world view does not allow for it. If materialism is true, then all science is reduced to mere opinion of the individual caused by the unique random interactions of matter and energy in his or her brain. There can be no valid standard of reason or logic to discern truth from falsehood. Only if our reasoning and logic comes from a higher source can it be valid.

From your previous post, I understood that you said that there is no absolute truth. I also understood that you said that truth is relative. Both are concepts that I wholeheartedly disagree with.

Science cannot be reduced from what it is because we have clearly defined what it is. People can practice it poorly, but it is not reduced.
 
I don't like this discussion as it is making me feel bad no matter what my beliefs are. But I will say that I was in combat. Very intense combat where we lost almost half of us, about 54 of us died and I will say that in the beginning of that battle, when 400 communist troops were running at me from the jungle and I was getting hit by schrapnel all over my body, And I heard the screams of many people dying through the fire and explosions, I found God in a big way and I prayed like I never prayed before even though I was not very religious. At those times, for those split seconds the biggest atheist starts to believe and pray because you are sure you are about to die and God is the only thing you have, or wished you had. I lived and am very grateful. Weather he exists or not, I am not sure, but I hope he does and if so, I will thank him some day.

People who never were in that situation just have to sit here and ponder and argue one way or another. But my life is secure and I am now not afraid to die because I am living on borrowed time for the last fifty years anyway. Many of us are not.
 
I think you misunderstand my point. I am not saying that science cannot provide insight into truth. I am an engineer of almost 40 years and I believe that it can. I am only saying that a purely materialistic world view does not allow for it. If materialism is true, then all science is reduced to mere opinion of the individual caused by the unique random interactions of matter and energy in his or her brain. There can be no valid standard of reason or logic to discern truth from falsehood. Only if our reasoning and logic comes from a higher source can it be valid.

I also am an engineer of 45 years. I used the laws of science to design control systems that network in 10,ooo’ of water. The systems that I designed are predictable & repeatable. This is science and good engineering.

When we talk about reality it gets complicated because now we bring in psychology, sociology and philosophy.

In the late 1960’s, I served four 90 day combat tours in Cambodia as a crew chief on Puff the Magic Dragon. I can assure you, very few can know that reality. After those days, I have found a place of peace in my life with my Creator. That is my reality today. To me, it is not necessary for others to agree with my Faith. However, I will not hide my Faith, nor will I walk on eggshells to appease.

PS. I just read @Paul B post. I also am secure with eternity and I live each day to its fullest.

Paul, when are we going to do the beach party with the krill soup and clam bake. Don’t forget to invite the Dallas Cowgirls
 
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Why do religious people seem to think science is out to prove god doesn’t exist? I don’t think science is about that. Science is about knowledge.

You can’t prove god doesn’t exist, but you also can’t prove that the universe is not sitting on the back of a giant tortoise. Sometimes common sense just needs to prevail.
 
Why do religious people seem to think science is out to prove god doesn’t exist? I don’t think science is about that. Science is about knowledge.

You can’t prove god doesn’t exist, but you also can’t prove that the universe is not sitting on the back of a giant tortoise. Sometimes common sense just needs to prevail.

I dont know man, I’m kind of hedging my bets on the Flying Spaghetti Monster. The best pasta based religion.
 

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