Are there disease resistant fish?

[eatbreakfast]

So you mean to say that at the time you were in Vietnam the people there were 'healthier' because they didn't get malaria or sick from improperly cooked food than those in the overly sanitized hand washing country of the U.S., even though life expectancy was a full 10yrs better in the U.S. than Vietnam in the years before and after the conflict? The difference in years rnds up being about a 15% longer life for U.S. residents. People in Vietnam were living about 61yrs whereas in the states it was about 71, and that's using statistics before and after the war so as not to skew the ratios.

61 at the time was close to the mark of average life expectancy, but not at the top. As vaccines and improved hygiene spread, you'll never guess what happened, life spans increased, just crazy.

It is quite possible, that with even more mainstream precautions your fish could be living 15% longer.

 

[Paul B]

Yes. I am saying if you put those people from Viet Nam with Americans in a similar, "unsanitary" place (like our reef tanks or a jungle which are full of diseases) the Vietnamese people would fare better. I know they would not get malaria but we would.
We do better here because we have doctors, hospitals and actual buildings so we live longer. An American living in a jungle in Viet Nam would not live longer than the native people.
How many times have you visited a doctor or hospital in your life? The Vietnamese people living in a jungle have none of that. I know I would have died many times just from tooth abscesses, infected wounds, accidents, appendicitis, burst tonsils etc. If you have any of that in an uncivilized place, you die.
I am sure fish in the sea, living with all the parasites, bacteria, viruses and fish hooks are much healthier than in our sterile tanks. I try to keep my fish in that condition which means including adding bacteria in mud and feeding natural foods with the incorporated bacteria.
I am happy that my fish will not get sick no matter what I add to my tank and like I said, 35 disease free years adds up to immunity. I feel immunity is much better than 72 days of quarantine. I could not quarantine if I wanted to and keep my tank natural. I would not be able to feed fresh or live foods or add NSW and bacteria from the sea. This natural system seems to work for "me". I am not telling anyone else to follow it. If you feel keeping fish tanks sterile, that is what you should do. But remember, if your fish are not dying only from jumping out or old age or are not pregnant all the time, they are not very healthy and will be prone to everything, except malaria.

 

[Paul B]

I think that some day, hopefully soon we will develop vaccines for fish to get them immune rather than this hit or miss quarantine thing. Then we could just buy a fish and throw it in our tanks, like I do and not worry about disease. Maybe LFSs will somehow administer these vaccines to the fish. We humans have been getting vaccines for all of my life and I am old. I could not go to school as a kid unless I was vaccinated against polio.
I got measles but I think now we have a vaccine.
The lower fish is a fireclown. He is about 25 years old and still spawning. He eats live blackworms every day along with clams or Mysis. That is about all I give them.



I don't like to post anything unless I can prove it. Here he is spawning. I also have videos but virtually all of my paired fish are spawning including ruby red dragonettes, bluestripe pipefish, watchman gobies, clown gobies, mandarins and bangai cardinals. I think I have pictures of all of them spawning I am just to lazy to post them as they all have been posted before. Spawning fish are in the healthiest condition fish can be in and the condition they always should be in. It just takes the proper food which may not always be something you can buy with a pretty picture of a fish on the package.

 

[Paul B]

Immunity thread
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a-discussion-on-immunity.209701/

 

[sundog101]

Quarantining does work, but only if done right. Unfortunately mistakes are made and if your fish have no resistance to common diseases that little mistake could cost you your tank. I have to agree with Paul here. I quarantined when I first started and lost enough fish. To qt fish is one thing but when you have to qt all incoming coral, inverts, and anything wet it just becomes too much of a struggle. Imo you can qt all that you want but eventually somehow something is going to get through. And when that happens your fish will most likely get sick.

 

[Paul B]

Oh no, some one agrees with me.
Quarantining can work, that is not in question. If you keep all disease organisms out "forever", it will work. But your fish were designed to repel invading organisms constantly so if they are never encountering any, that system will weaken and falter. Fish health, like our health depends on an influx of bacteria and other things. You can Google it anywhere.
It bothers me how many disease threads there are and there is no need for them.

 

[cracker]

This is good read !Both methods make sense in many ways. Sun Dog makes a very good point.

 

[eatbreakfast]

Yes. I am saying if you put those people from Viet Nam with Americans in a similar, "unsanitary" place (like our reef tanks or a jungle which are full of diseases) the Vietnamese people would fare better. I know they would not get malaria but we would.
We do better here because we have doctors, hospitals and actual buildings so we live longer. An American living in a jungle in Viet Nam would not live longer than the native people.
How many times have you visited a doctor or hospital in your life? The Vietnamese people living in a jungle have none of that. I know I would have died many times just from tooth abscesses, infected wounds, accidents, appendicitis, burst tonsils etc. If you have any of that in an uncivilized place, you die.
I am sure fish in the sea, living with all the parasites, bacteria, viruses and fish hooks are much healthier than in our sterile tanks. I try to keep my fish in that condition which means including adding bacteria in mud and feeding natural foods with the incorporated bacteria.
I am happy that my fish will not get sick no matter what I add to my tank and like I said, 35 disease free years adds up to immunity. I feel immunity is much better than 72 days of quarantine. I could not quarantine if I wanted to and keep my tank natural. I would not be able to feed fresh or live foods or add NSW and bacteria from the sea. This natural system seems to work for "me". I am not telling anyone else to follow it. If you feel keeping fish tanks sterile, that is what you should do. But remember, if your fish are not dying only from jumping out or old age or are not pregnant all the time, they are not very healthy and will be prone to everything, except malaria.

Your analogy of Vietnam /America is way off though.

The jungles of Vietnam would be much more analogous with the relatively unpolluted reefs, wheres overpopulated, overpolulleted U.S. matches the conditions of most fish tanks, and this is where the role of the aquarist can fit that of the doctor, to prevent and eliminate disease.

Also, to be confident that someoneone from Vietnam wouldn't contract malaria based off of your observations there, just goes to show how wrong confident observations can be, because the rates for malarial deaths have gotten better for Vietnam, but in 1980, close to a decade after you were there, the death rate per 1000 was over 57, not just contracting it, but dying from it!

And the only reason disease doesn't affect people from those parts of the world coming to westernized countries is to do with the fact that they have been practically eliminated.

I've seen plenty of tanks that don't utilize qt, with fish spawning(again, not a resounding indicator of health, as it is one of the stronger instinctual drives), but then something goes wrong. In a fairly recent example it was a case that the wall outlet failed, the house had a generator, but since it happened at the wall the generator didn't kick in. There were no deaths from lack of oxygen, though there was a lot of gasping at the surface. The power was off in the tank for about 8hrs. Prior to this there had been no signs of illness and no recently added fish, but the next day most of the fish had symptoms of velvet, and at the end of two weeks 3/4 of the fish were dead.

Keeping general health up and relying on immunity can be a plan, but only until something goes sideways. We as aquarists have the opportunity and means to eliminate these pathogens, so that if something does go wrong there aren't as many casualties.

 

[Paul B]

This is fun. The jungles of VietNam are unpolluted but the places where soldiers lived ,clearings in the jungle were mosquito, rat and snake infested mud holes due to the large number of troops living in small areas with no sanitation, refrigeration or plumbing.
I never saw anyone there who contracted malaria but I know I would get it if I didn't take the pills as we had Americans get the disease because they made believe they took the pills. If I lived like the locals eating food as they did and having no medication, I know I would not have gotten home.
Many of the diseases we used to get are eliminated because the people who were susceptible to them died as that is part of natural selection. That is why there is no more black plague that killed a third of Europe. They had no defense against it except their own immune system. But lets get off the Viet Nam thing for now because it is not my favorite topic.
In the 45 years my reef has been running here on Long Island we have had probably 7 or 8 hurricanes. My power has gone off multiple times. Once for 5 days and recently from Hurricane for 4 days. Now I have a generator but for most of those blackouts, there was no power. I had no problem. I used to have a sea urchin collecting business and I had 24 local New York urchins in my tank. They all spawned at once and the water looked like Half and Half. I couldn't see an inch inside the tank. I diatom filtered the tank and it was fine. No sickness, no deaths no gasping.
Recently I went to Germany for 8 days, my tank sitter allowed the water level to drop 7 inches. (I wrote this in my thread about my tank) All the corals above that line of course died. The salinity was almost double because my tank is only 14" high. No losses, no deaths and no gasping.
Healthy, spawning fish have large tolerances for misshaps. I have not lost a fish to disease since maybe the 80s, I can't remember.
When I started the tank I used to quarantine and I lost so many fish I gave that up. But that was my fault because I still used NSW and few natural foods. You can't mix quarantine and a natural system because a quarantined tank can never be a natural tank because diseases and parasites are part of a natural tank.
But Like I always say, if you feel quarantining is the way to go. Do it.

 

[eatbreakfast]

Your method works for you and has been very successful. And following your own protocol your tank has been able survive stressors that would have otherwise spelled doom.

However, I have those spawning fish and doing some similar things yet still have disease outbreaks.

Just as if there is a breakdown or mistake made during qt protocol, bad things can happen, so too the same can happen if smebody tries following the steps you lay out, but doesn't follow it fully. Fish is left susceptible.

Also, the immune system is not a 'use it or lose it' sort of thing. Antibodies for specific pathogens may stop being produced after a time, but in overall healthy specimens, even if not around any pathogens, immune systems will still work as they should. Thats how immunities developed in the first place, exposere and the immune system kicking in. You can take away exposure and reintroduce later and the immune system still works.

 

[Paul B]

I agree both methods can have problems. So far none of my fish have had disease problems but it could happen. Right now my tank has been ignored. My Mother N Law is on the verge of dying any time now so I have been very busy with those arrangements. My fish are almost reduced to eating cake. I have not hatched brine shrimp in a week and that has never happened. I am sure my mandarins and pipefish will stop spawning until I can get back to doing that. But I don't think anything else will get sick.
Have a great day

 

[Humblefish]

Ran across this today and figured it applied to this thread: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1050464810000197

Abstract
The susceptibility of eight marine fish species cultured in South China were tested for infection by the parasitic ciliate, Cryptocaryon irritans, via a challenge examination and an immobilization assay. All species of fish (representing six different families) that we investigated were infected by C. irritans except the rabbitfish (Siganus oramin), which displayed resistance to C. irritans infection. The infection intensity of rabbitfish (0.92 ± 0.97, p < 0.05) was significantly lower while the immobilization titres of rabbitfish serum were significantly higher (44.51 ± 22.98, p < 0.05) than the other seven species of fish. Additionally, the serum of the rabbitfish presented a strong killing effect to C. irritansin vitro. Light microscopy, scanning electron microscopy and fluorescence microscopy confirmed that rabbitfish serum could induce the theront cilia fall off, rupture of the cell membrane because of the swell and rupture of the macronucleus. Rabbitfish serum could also induce the rupture of the trophont membrane and content efflux. Herein a novel antiparasitic protein (APP) was isolated and purified from the serum of rabbitfish (S. oramin) by using a series of salting-out, cation exchange chromatography and two step of reversed phase high performance liquid chromatography (RP-HPLC). Analysis of sodium dodecyl sulfate polyacrylamide gel electrophoresis (SDS-PAGE) showed that APP was a homogenous polymeric protein with an N-terminal amino acid sequence of SSVEKNLAACLRDND. Its monomeric molecular mass, determined by matrix-assisted laser desorption ionization tandem time-of-flight mass spectrometer (MALDI-TOF-TOF-MS), was found to be 61,739.87 Da. Results of homology analyses indicated that this protein was a newly discovered functional protein in the rabbitfish serum. Laser confocal fluorescence microscopy conformed that the action site of the APP was mainly on the cell membrane and nucleus of theront, which agreed with the results of light microscopy, fluorescence microscopy and scanning electron microscopy. These findings suggest that this protein may contribute considerably to the innate host defence mechanism to combat microbes of the rabbitfish.

Go Rabbitfish!

 

[Paul B]

That's cool Dr Fish. Here is another one I found which I also included in my thread on immunology.

Quote: Immunity associated with the parasites depends on the inhabiting discrete sites in the host. Especially important for this paper are the ectoparasites, those habiting in or on the skin. Until recently there had been little direct evidence of innate immune mechanisms against parasites associated with mucosal epithelium [285]. The active immunological role of skin against parasitic infection has been shown recently [286–288], and now mucosal immunity against them start to be elucidated.
Non-parasitic fishes usually die following infection, but animals surviving sublethal parasite exposure become resistant to subsequent challenge. This resistance correlates with the presence of humoral antibodies in the sera and cutaneous mucus of immune fishes.
According to these authors "probiotic for aquaculture is a live, dead or component of a microbial cell that, when administered via the feed or to the rearing water, benefits the host by improving either disease resistance, health status, growth performance, feed utilisation, stress response or general vigour, which is achieved at least in part via improving the hosts or the environmental microbial balance."The first demonstration that probiotics can protect fishes against surface infections was against Aeromonas bestiarum and Ichthyophthirius multifiliis in rainbow trout [330]. The research on this topic is considered of high priority at present because enriched diets could be used as preventive or curative therapies for farmed fishes. End Quote

 

[Paul B]

If anyone has time to read, here is more on the subject that I also included on my immunity thread that I know no one read.

Coincidently in this months "Popular Science" (August 2015) there is an article about this very topic. The author states that the most germ free envirnment today is on the International Space Station. Everything is sterilized including the air. All the surfaces are coated with bacteria limiting coatings, even the water is treated with iodine and biocidal nano silver so the only bacteria prsent are the ones coming from the astronauts themselves. They can't open a window or send out for Pizza so there is no fresh influx of microbes to balance the ecosystem. Sounds like quarantining doesn't it? He also states that a loss of gut bacteria correlates with many diseases and could impede longer space travel. If we lose our gut bacteria, our immune system goes dormant. (this is what I have against dry packaged and sterilized foods)
In the real world bacteria, viruses and parasites evolved right along with other organisms that help keep each organism in check. They have their enemies and friends. When we mess with the system by using antibiotics or extended periods of quarantine, or remove living bacteria from their food, we are dooming the fish to a life where they are on the verge of getting a fatal disease.
This is also the reason so many diseases are contracted in hospitals, a place where great pains are taken to keep the place clean. They are clean, so the only bacteria present are from sick people with no other bacteria or viruses to counteract them. It is now thought that people using those hand sanitizers from very young are at a higher risk of becomming an allergic toddler.

This is an except from what Humblefish linked to that thread.
Neurophilosophy
Gut bacteria may influence thoughts and behaviour

Posted by Mo on March 25, 2011
(21)
More »

THE human gut contains a diverse community of bacteria which colonize the large intestine in the days following birth and vastly outnumber our own cells. These intestinal microflora constitute a virtual organ within an organ and influence many bodily functions. Among other things, they aid in the uptake and metabolism of nutrients, modulate the inflammatory response to infection, and protect the gut from other, harmful micro-organisms. A new study by researchers at McMaster University in Hamilton, Ontario now suggests that gut bacteria may also influence behaviour and cognitive processes such as memory by exerting an effect on gene activity during brain development.

Jane Foster and her colleagues compared the performance of germ-free mice, which lack gut bacteria, with normal animals on the elevated plus maze, which is used to test anxiety-like behaviours. This consists of a plus-shaped apparatus with two open and two closed arms, with an open roof and raised up off the floor. Ordinarily, mice will avoid open spaces to minimize the risk of being seen by predators, and spend far more time in the closed than in the open arms when placed in the elevated plus maze.

 

[4FordFamily]

I will say that disease management rather than quarantine works fine for several species of fish, especially some of the most common fish. I do agree also that for most hobbyists, it is just a matter of time until that bites them in the you know what. Most people aren't as dedicated as you, and honestly the effort you put in to hatching, gathering, and cultivating live foods isn't any more or less than would be done to properly quarantine, which truly some species do need. I haven't seen any acanthurus tangs, especially not powders, goldrim, nor Achilles in your tanks. They would not be able to live the way you describe. However so many more fish probably would under your exemplary husbandry. This is difficult for almost anyone to emulate, however.

The only beef I have with what you said by and large (again, other than what I stated above) is that you're confusing immunity with a resistance. Because my daughter is in daycare now and I spent 6 months in perpetuity sick as a dog, I am pretty resistant to ailments now. I'm not immune, I can and will still get sick under the right conditions but now I am far less likely to be sick.

Perhaps that's not the best analogy, but one doesn't achieve an true immunity to these things, virtually ever. A strong resistance is what you're witnessing. I know I am nitpicking but there is a difference.

We are always impressed by your success Paul I for one was not able to replicate your husbandry and wished to keep species that this does not work for as well. So, I went to the "dark side". Since then I've killed FAR fewer fish.

 

[Paul B]

4FordFamily. I did not have the gold rim tangs but for most of the life of my tank I had hippo tangs, yellow tangs, lipstick tangs and purple tangs. I didn't lose any to disease, most of them either jumped out or lived to 12+ years old and then died. I don't really like tangs and find them boring which is why I don't keep them and I am sure they live longer than 12 years. My tank has had many accidents where I killed many of the fish. My 25 year old fireclown is one of the only fish I had left after I had an accident about 15 years ago with Clorox. I posted that on various forums, maybe also this one. That day I lost a 10 year old mandarin, a 18 year old cusk eel and maybe 15 other fish. But that was due to my stupidity.
I have no problem with tangs and may get another hippo as they are the only ones I really like.
I also don't think I keep the more common fish. I have ruby red dragonettes, blue striped pipefish, clingfish, queen anthius, copperband, mandarins etc. I am also told almost every day that I am playing Russian Roulette but I am not sure how long that game lasts but 35 years disease free to me equals immunity, not just luck or my good looks which is questionable.
People also get the wrong idea about quarantining or not. I feel it is by far in the fishes better interest if the fish is in a natural tank along with the associated diseases. I feel it contributes greatly to the general health of the fish. If you read those links I posted you can see that I did not make this up. I am not that smart. I also don't think I do much different for my fish that anyone else can easily do. It is much easier to feed clams and blackworms every day than quarantine everything then treat sick fish in all sorts of medications. I buy a fish, any fish and after 10 or so minutes of acclimation, dump it in my tank. They always eat. You never saw me post that I bought a copperband or Moorish Idol and it didn't eat. In a natural, bacteria laden tank, my new fish always eat. I have never posted about my tank on a disease thread for the above reasons. All I do is feel food with live bacteria like worms, new born brine shrimp and clams. The stuff I collect is only in the summer and I think that would only help with nutrients for the corals.

 

[Paul B]

I am having problems today and am doing this to get my mind off important matters. My Mother N Law died this morning so we had a lot of things to do. It was expected as she was 90 and living in a nursing home. The last few days were for lack of a better word, horrible. So this is my therapy.

Here is my theory. I feel one of the biggest problems with keeping fish healthy (besides quarantining) is feeding sterile foods such as flakes, pellets and food that says: irradiated to kill harmful diseases. Look at the threads on here. How many of them are disease threads? How many of them quarantined or feed dry foods that are sterile which is why they invented dry foods. It keeps almost forever without refrigeration. It's sort of like why we invented white flour. Whole wheat flour is a fairly nutritious food but it requires refrigeration as "all healthy foods except peanut butter does". Refrigeration is expensive so they take the whole wheat flour and remove the bran and the germ leaving starch, or glue. If you notice on a package of white flour it is always "enriched" with various vitamins and minerals. They don't do that because they care if you are healthy or not, they do it because white flour has nothing in it to keep you alive so they can't sell it as "food". It is paste. By putting some vitamins in it they can call it food. Look at a container of flake food or pellets. You will again see all sorts of ingredients "for the same reason". It may start out as fish meal, corn meal, anchovy meal etc, but those things go bad so they remove the moisture and everything healthy, then replace it with vitamins and minerals that can be dried and preserved.
Why not feed something with only one ingredient such as clams or worms? Clams cost about 50 cents for a giant chowder clam and it lasts me a week. I realize many people can't buy fresh clams but I know they sell them frozen. Fish don't need a variety of foods, they need what they are supposed to eat and nothing more. Clams, worms and Mysis is just about the only thing I feed my fish (mandarins, pipefish, shrimpfish get new born brine shrimp) and virtually all of my paired fish are spawning. Only the healthiest fish can spawn. Fish in marginal health have enough trouble staying alive and won't spawn. For a fish to make and keep it's immunity takes a large amount of calories from the correct foods. Fish eggs are almost all oil and it is a huge burden on a fish to make eggs, and secrete slime which is it's most important immunity defense.
If you want to feed mostly dry foods or sterile foods, you should quarantine as your fish will not remain healthy "and immune". Most fish can't even spawn on dry foods.
We have to get our minds off this " Sterility is a good thing" mode as it is not. It is not natural and not healthy. Sterility is good in an operating room, but not in a fish tank. It weakens your fish and makes them suseptable to disease. I know I am not making a lot of friends by suggesting this strategy. I am not here to make friends as I have many, mostly Supermodels. I could go along with the people inside the box but I don't want my fish written about on these disease threads which occupy most of these forums as there is no reason for it. This system of introducing food with live bacteria is extreamly easy and cheap.
Just my opinions of course.
12 year old watchman with her eggs


Clown gobies with their eggs between them. They are the reason I have very few SPS corals. They spawn every week and kill wherever they lay eggs.

 

[MikeyAl]

I am having problems today and am doing this to get my mind off important matters. My Mother N Law died this morning so we had a lot of things to do. It was expected as she was 90 and living in a nursing home. The last few days were for lack of a better word, horrible. So this is my therapy.

Here is my theory. I feel one of the biggest problems with keeping fish healthy (besides quarantining) is feeding sterile foods such as flakes, pellets and food that says: irradiated to kill harmful diseases. Look at the threads on here. How many of them are disease threads? How many of them quarantined or feed dry foods that are sterile which is why they invented dry foods. It keeps almost forever without refrigeration. It's sort of like why we invented white flour. Whole wheat flour is a fairly nutritious food but it requires refrigeration as "all healthy foods except peanut butter does". Refrigeration is expensive so they take the whole wheat flour and remove the bran and the germ leaving starch, or glue. If you notice on a package of white flour it is always "enriched" with various vitamins and minerals. They don't do that because they care if you are healthy or not, they do it because white flour has nothing in it to keep you alive so they can't sell it as "food". It is paste. By putting some vitamins in it they can call it food. Look at a container of flake food or pellets. You will again see all sorts of ingredients "for the same reason". It may start out as fish meal, corn meal, anchovy meal etc, but those things go bad so they remove the moisture and everything healthy, then replace it with vitamins and minerals that can be dried and preserved.
Why not feed something with only one ingredient such as clams or worms? Clams cost about 50 cents for a giant chowder clam and it lasts me a week. I realize many people can't buy fresh clams but I know they sell them frozen. Fish don't need a variety of foods, they need what they are supposed to eat and nothing more. Clams, worms and Mysis is just about the only thing I feed my fish (mandarins, pipefish, shrimpfish get new born brine shrimp) and virtually all of my paired fish are spawning. Only the healthiest fish can spawn. Fish in marginal health have enough trouble staying alive and won't spawn. For a fish to make and keep it's immunity takes a large amount of calories from the correct foods. Fish eggs are almost all oil and it is a huge burden on a fish to make eggs, and secrete slime which is it's most important immunity defense.
If you want to feed mostly dry foods or sterile foods, you should quarantine as your fish will not remain healthy "and immune". Most fish can't even spawn on dry foods.
We have to get our minds off this " Sterility is a good thing" mode as it is not. It is not natural and not healthy. Sterility is good in an operating room, but not in a fish tank. It weakens your fish and makes them suseptable to disease. I know I am not making a lot of friends by suggesting this strategy. I am not here to make friends as I have many, mostly Supermodels. I could go along with the people inside the box but I don't want my fish written about on these disease threads which occupy most of these forums as there is no reason for it. This system of introducing food with live bacteria is extreamly easy and cheap.
Just my opinions of course.
12 year old watchman with her eggs


Clown gobies with their eggs between them. They are the reason I have very few SPS corals. They spawn every week and kill wherever they lay eggs.

Very sorry to hear about your loss.

 

[Humblefish]

I am having problems today and am doing this to get my mind off important matters. My Mother N Law died this morning so we had a lot of things to do. It was expected as she was 90 and living in a nursing home. The last few days were for lack of a better word, horrible. So this is my therapy.

I'm very sorry to hear this, Paul.

 

[cracker]

Best wishes to You and Your Family Paul.