Article: Are LEDs a suitable primary light source? + a thread.

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A. grandis said:
This article:
https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/are-leds-a-suitable-primary-light-source.42/

Please copy and paste your comments above there. This is not the place for the discussion.
Other people will participate too!
Thanks!
Grandis.
Click to expand...

Thanks not an article, that's just another thread.

This is exactly the right place for this discussion. You posted these baseless claims and I am dispelling them with prejudice and you either don't have a rebuttal or simply chose not to.

Either way, I think I've made my point clear. Good luck on your other endeavors to put down LEDs. It didn't work over here.
 
Nutramar Foods
BRS
The answer to the topic of the thread is yes. Yes led's are more than suitable. What is maybe one of the most important aspects of an led is its lens (45,60,90 degree) , this will dictate the spread of its light and how well the colors mix at different levels. This is very similar to the importance of different reflectors in t5.

All three types are perfectly acceptable to grow corals and that is what I want beginners that may stumble across this thread to know. As I stated in the other thread it's like arguing over which side of the sun grows coral the best.

That being said I see it like this:
T5 - pro: good tank coverage and easy to swap bulb temperatures for different coloring. Con: expensive continual bulb replacement, uses quite a bit of electricity and can create alot of heat. No shimmer
MH - pro: proven technology that creates great shimmer and penetrates well. Simple to set up. Con: no actinic option, lots of heat and electricity use. Continual bulb replacement
LED - pro: easy to adjust color and acclimate corals by dimming. Actinic usually built in, seemingly never have to replace any "bulbs" aka diodes, nice shimmer, uses the least amount of electricity and produces little heat Con: can be susceptible to shading if coral placement not carefully considered, can be costly to purchase up front depending on fixture

Pick your importance and run with it. In my opinion I've not seen significant enough of growth rate differences to even consider it as a pro or con on any of the 3. You will find stories leading one way or the other but often what caused the difference in growth could have been rectified by a different or more fixtures, lenses, color spectrum etc.
 
MH and T5 are slowly fading in pretty much every industry due to cost to maintain and cost to operate with equivalent to better performance values with LED at overall lower legacy costs.

There will always be tests or articles that state the contrary to either position but unless the tests are performed under basic scientific principals under controlled environments of identical parameters it really is moot to discuss.

Now i am new to the reefing community but have worked with all of the options in hydroponics. And over the past 15 years i went from MH to T5 then eventually LED and have had the most sucess by far with LED, better coloring, better growth. Little to no bleaching when the plants are exposed to the sun vs MH and especially T5.

Overall LED has begun to dominate most if not all markets for the same reasons.

Not to mention that in supporting equipment that is environmentally unfriendly through power consumption and replacement waste it by extension has an increased negative impact on natural reefs that we as hobbyists support the protection of. If that means LEDs may, not saying LED's do, have slightly slower growth rates than that should be a trade off we as responsible individuals should be okay with.
 
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A. grandis said:
What about the fresh info from coral farmers and so on?
Ok, then. Bye.
Grandis.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry but you are making statements without the personal experience to back them up. You're unable to answer questions put to you aside from pointing us to another sources opinion.
I respect your convictions. However to better build on them I highly recommend you research the much respected research done by EcoTech, Orphek, Kessil and AI. These are just a few developers with years of testing and experience behind them.
After you've done this then please come back and we'll gladly discuss your statements.
 
Deltec
so im considered a "beginner" because my tank is only 18 mo old- but I've been running strictly LED- a Kessil and Radion Gen 3's- and im having success with all types of corals. Not sure how you could dissuade me from using LEDs - simply because my corals dont grow the same as other lighting types... but my corals are growing and that is acceptable to me.
 
The problem lies with the manufacturers. When ecotech says an XR30 can cover 24x24 they are basically wrong. AI is another one that just flat out lies about coverage.

I know people like to quote Sanjay and his LED setup but I bet no one here has as much surface area covered with LEDs as he has. That's why he has had success, not because he's some LED wizard with magical powers. How many times do I see people with 60 gallon cubes with just a single xr30.

You want to grow SPS with a radion? Well then be prepared to put an xr30 in front to back puck orientation every 12 inches length wise when you got a 24in wide tank.

Ohh and I am picking on radions because I think they are trash. Expensive unit with mediocre diodes and parts. And yes Cree is not high end in the slightest. Cree is a decent diode at a cheap price, nothing more.
 
How can you not love this sleek look?

IMG_2372.JPG


Or maybe you would rather have a giant blue space heater over your tank? How about a space ship that has no shadows or shimmer and makes your entire tank look completely artificial? No, I thought not lol.

Everyone has their personal preference and each will do the job they are meant to do.
 
Nutramar Foods
I started my aquarium life using whale oil lights, then went to regular incandescents, to regular fluorescent, to gro lux fluorescent, to VHO, to compact fluorescent, to MH to a combination of quartz/ fluorescent/MH to LEDs and fluorescent to now just LEDs. I learned something in the 60 years I have been doing this. It doesn't matter what kind of lighting you have as long as you have the same intensity and spectrum.
But the whale oil was the best. :D
 
Paul B said:
I started my aquarium life using whale oil lights, then went to regular incandescents, to regular fluorescent, to gro lux fluorescent, to VHO, to compact fluorescent, to MH to a combination of quartz/ fluorescent/MH to LEDs and fluorescent to now just LEDs. I learned something in the 60 years I have been doing this. It doesn't matter what kind of lighting you have as long as you have the same intensity and spectrum.
But the whale oil was the best. :D
Click to expand...

Lol!
 
Alright... here are some of the interesting notes from Mr. Jeremy Gosnell:

Post#6:
"LEDs can be a bit deceiving, especially because they don't follow the conventional "rules" of reef tank lighting. Years ago, in the days of power compacts and metal halides, we used to judge a light's suitability for a tank based on watts. There were suggestions like 3 watts per gallon for some species, 5 watts per gallon for others; and many aquarists sized their light fixtures based on those specifications. It was one reason that metal halides were so popular, because they had such a high wattage people often believed they could keep a wide array of coral species. Whether the wattage per gallon rule was ever true to form, I am not sure, but I am sure that halides and T5's were quite good at growing corals. LEDs are so different from either halides or T5's not only does the wattage per gallon rule not apply, traditional rules don't seem to either. I have had corals seemingly bathed in LED light start to wither. A PAR test shows a mediocre amount of useable radiation, even though the coral appears brightly lit. The rise of consumer/hobbyist level, easy to use PAR meters (I personally use Neptune's but several are now on the market) has helped aquarists start to notice the flaws in LED lighting. (They can't really be called flaws, as its more the nature of LEDs and how they create light energy. For most applications, shadowing isn't much of an issue) About a year ago, I got a PAR meter and started doing testing myself. I was surprised that PAR dropped so quickly outside of LED fixtures "hot" range. I thought it must have been my fixtures, which at the time was the Ecotech Radion Generation 3 pros. I got a new set of fixtures, Kessil's AP700s and found the same exact issues. So I started testing other sources of light: T5 and eventually metal halide. I was quite surprised by how much more coverage I got from mixing metal halide with LED. I imagine mixing T5 w/ LED would have similar results.
I want to be clear that I am not degrading LEDs or suggesting they aren't capable of keeping a beautiful reef aquarium, we know that they are. I am just suggesting that now that the hobby has had a few years of heavy LED use under its belt, it's time we start looking at the nuts and bolts of how they work and the results they produce, since many aquarists are reporting similar experiences and there appears to be a sudden re-emergence of T5 and halide use among reef keepers. Trust me, it took a lot for me to even consider adding a metal halide to my tank, largely because I am such a fan of LEDs efficiency and sleek/simple nature, plus full daylight to moonlight profiles. In the end, I try to push my corals growth and coloration outside the realm of many reef keepers and I frag often and grow many frags into colonies. Based on that, I felt the best way to achieve that was to add a halide to the mix. The example I wrote about in the article (the montipora colony) was surprising to me, as I didn't expect the result to be so dramatic."

Post#11:
"I had felt for some time that the advertising around LED fixtures, such as the area of useable light (which is often advertised as 24x24) was stretched to the max. I don't think LED manufacturers are being outright dishonest, just that the natural way LEDs produce light, mounting options, current within the tank and other factors skew how an LED fixture performs on any given tank. My personal testing with a PAR meter confirmed my suspicions which were based on coral growth from various areas of my tank, in relation to their distance from an LED's hot light center. PAR drops off quickly when you move from the bright focal point of the LED puck, which makes sense as this is the area of greatest LED light discharge. Oddly enough, I have gotten complaints from home owners about light oddities when they switch to LED lighting in their homes. Something about the light spread seems off to them, and they have a hard time explaining it. I don't know for a fact that shading, shadowing and light spread from LED in comparison to traditional lighting is to blame, but I imagine it could be. It's important that reef keepers understand that originally, LED lights were developed for blinking road signs, digital advertising and outline lights for car headlights, etc. Expecting LEDs to replicate perhaps the highest intensity light radiation on the planet (the tropical sun over a shallow-water coral reef) is taking the technology to a whole new level. If you compare how a metal halide works (creating a lighting arc via gaseous mercury and metal halides) to how an LED works (creating light via recombining electrons to release energy in the form of photons) they really aren't comparable. Yes, LEDs use far less electricity and generate far less heat, but the chemical and electrical process that creates the light is very different, thus is the light that is actually produced."

Post#12:
"Another thing I noticed in researching for this article, that I should have included: is that simple environmental factors within the tank had a more profound effect on PAR reaching corals when using LEDs v. other lighting methods. Why this is, I don't know and my findings are entirely anecdotal (which is why I left them out of the main article). However, they are worth mentioning. Using LED fixtures alone, I found a drop of 6-10 PAR when my return and circulation pumps caused considerable agitation at the water's surface. Altering the circulation and return pump output returned most of that lost PAR back to the tank. I also found a drop of around 12 PAR when I placed my screen top over my tank, using LED lighting alone. My screen top is a large frame, clear plastic mesh similar to many of the screen tops in use by reef keepers. Since removing the screen top isn't an option (as I have several fish species prone to jumping) using LED alone I would have to live with that PAR loss.
With metal halides, I found a PAR loss of about 4 when my return and circulation pumps we causing surface agitation and 7 with my screen lid. Why it's so different, I don't know. Like I said, overall minimal and anecdotal - but interesting none the less."

Post#14:
"Some could argue that an LED is only as good as its lenses, and it would be an argument with merit. Lenses make a huge difference in how LED light is disbursed. Ecotech (which my auto-correct swears is Scotch) hopes to revolutionize lens technology with their upcoming hemispherical lens. We will have to see how the new lenses perform once they are released. One thing worth noting, it takes a lot of time to really notice subtle changes in how a lighting type performs. For a while, even for several years, things can seem relatively in line with previous results, but as our tanks evolve and we closely monitor coral health, it's often then that shortcomings become apparent. My point, aquarium media and various aquarists may very well claim that Ecotech's new lenses (or any new product for that matter) has sealed the gap regarding LED lighting concerns, but in reality it will take a long time and the reports of a lot of reef keepers to really paint a complete picture.
One thing worth noting, there are so many variations between individual LED diodes, lenses and configurations, it's impossible to pan LED lights as universally insufficient. In fact, if an aquarist invests time and effort into monitoring their PAR readings and carefully placing their corals while using only LEDs, chances are they will achieve good results."

FROM:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/are-leds-a-suitable-primary-light-source.264136/

These observations above were basically what I have found out using LEDs. They were very well put by Mr. Jeremy Gosnell!

Grandis.
 
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Chewy.com
bif24701 said:
...
Sanjay is a person that I consider a world respected source for MH, VHO and T5 lighting systems. He has written many articles and done countless tests. He set the standards for reef aquarium lighting setups, literally, before modern LEDs!! Sanjay switched to LEDs and loves them.

Here is the proof, you should try finding some and using it, https://reefs.com/2016/01/05/leds-500-gallon-reef/

This thread is dumb.
Click to expand...
Here we go to Dr. Sanjay's article again:

"It’s been 2 years now since I started the LED experiment on my 500G reef. I replaced my 3 400W Metal Halides with EcoTech Marine8 Radion G2 pro LEDs and I have been quite satisfied with the change. No more chillers turning on in the summer, although I do have to increase the heaters in winter. Coral color has been great, and I am satisfied with the growth on most corals. I would say that the growth rate is about 80% of what I was seeing with the MH on most corals. And that is fine with me given the other benefits I gain from using LEDs, such as not having to replace MH bulbs every year, not turning on my chiller in summer, and creating dusk effects for fish spawning. I have had 100% reliability on the units, which is impressive. I was expecting to see some hardware failure, but that has not happened yet. Does that mean that LEDs have reached the pinnacle of reef lighting? There are a lot of things I like about LEDs, but I would still hesitate to make that statement. There are a few issues that they need to resolve. In my assessment, I would list them as follows: 1) Spread of light. I still find the light more directional than MH which has its pluses and minuses. But for a large tank like mine, I would like more spread and less shadowing caused by the light directionality
2) Better mixing of colors. While there has been an improvement in this respect, especially by LED designs that use tightly clustered LEDs, I still do not like seeing multiple colors in the shadows.
3) Spectrum. While a lot of people swear by the heavy blue spectrum, I would much rather prefer fuller-spectrum LEDs.
4) No power reduction when dialing in the LED spectrums. Most lights in the market today (except for the new AI Hydra) reduce total power and light output when reducing the intensity of the different LED channels. There are still some corals where I am not seeing growth that comes even close to MH. Most noticeably A. Millepora and the green Bali Slimer. These are corals that grew as weeds under my MH, but grow significantly slower under my LEDs. It does not seem like an issue of light quantity, but I think the light quality plays a bigger role here. There is another odd observation I can make about coral growth under LEDs. I found that corals frags tend to develop a larger base encrustation with LEDs, wonder why?"

FROM: https://reefs.com/2016/01/05/leds-500-gallon-reef/

Sanjay replaced his 3 400W MH fixtures for 8 Radions G2. Even with the 8 fixtures the growth was only equivalent to 80% of the 3 MHs.
By that we know that his MHs was growing corals better than those LEDs.
He was happy with the savings, of course. I would too. Then he says that he was kinda surprised with the reliability of the units. Which is great!
Now the issues:

"1) Spread of light. I still find the light more directional than MH which has its pluses and minuses. But for a large tank like mine, I would like more spread and less shadowing caused by the light directionality"

I see that as one of the worse qualities of LEDs. I don't think it effects only large tanks and I don't think that is because his tank is large. Sorry, but no excuses there. He was polite to put that way. I like the way he knows how to say/write things.

"2) Better mixing of colors. While there has been an improvement in this respect, especially by LED designs that use tightly clustered LEDs, I still do not like seeing multiple colors in the shadows."

Another thing I tried to put with my own words before about the different spectrums with individual separated bulbs. Those "colors in the shadows" look like a toy light!!

"3) Spectrum. While a lot of people swear by the heavy blue spectrum, I would much rather prefer fuller-spectrum LEDs."

He likes full spectrum and they are making new LEDs with more reds and greens after that, I would think. That is a personal preference. I personally think full spectrum and bluer spectrum have their pros and cons. Both work fine. Matter of taste. 6500K with some actinics is the warmer I would recommend! I think he would agree with me on that one.

"4) No power reduction when dialing in the LED spectrums. Most lights in the market today (except for the new AI Hydra) reduce total power and light output when reducing the intensity of the different LED channels. There are still some corals where I am not seeing growth that comes even close to MH. Most noticeably A. Millepora and the green Bali Slimer. These are corals that grew as weeds under my MH, but grow significantly slower under my LEDs. It does not seem like an issue of light quantity, but I think the light quality plays a bigger role here. There is another odd observation I can make about coral growth under LEDs. I found that corals frags tend to develop a larger base encrustation with LEDs, wonder why?"

At last he finally tell us that he noticed some of the corals that the growth didn't even got close to MHs' growth. He said that the LIGHT QUALITY plays a bigger role!! Well, that's what I've been telling you guys all this time!! Remember?

I believe the same lack of quality is what makes the difference when his corals had the base encrustation larger.
See.. not lack of intensity, but lack of QUALITY.

Thanks again for the article!!

Grandis.
 
gus6464 said:
The problem lies with the manufacturers. When ecotech says an XR30 can cover 24x24 they are basically wrong. AI is another one that just flat out lies about coverage.

I know people like to quote Sanjay and his LED setup but I bet no one here has as much surface area covered with LEDs as he has. That's why he has had success, not because he's some LED wizard with magical powers. How many times do I see people with 60 gallon cubes with just a single xr30.

You want to grow SPS with a radion? Well then be prepared to put an xr30 in front to back puck orientation every 12 inches length wise when you got a 24in wide tank.

Ohh and I am picking on radions because I think they are trash. Expensive unit with mediocre diodes and parts. And yes Cree is not high end in the slightest. Cree is a decent diode at a cheap price, nothing more.
Click to expand...

Well said!
Grandis.
 
NanaReefer said:
I'm sorry but you are making statements without the personal experience to back them up. You're unable to answer questions put to you aside from pointing us to another sources opinion.
I respect your convictions. However to better build on them I highly recommend you research the much respected research done by EcoTech, Orphek, Kessil and AI. These are just a few developers with years of testing and experience behind them.
After you've done this then please come back and we'll gladly discuss your statements.
Click to expand...

Thank you very much for the consideration, but seriously... do you really think that after many of my friends went back to their MHs and T5s I would spend my money with all those LED fixtures just so I could come bak here to tell you guys that they just didn't do the job with my zoas, like my ATI HOT5 fixture does for more than 10 years??
Is there any published research do by those brands?
I don't think we all need to actually buy everything they say and be stuck with all kinds of stuff in the closet just to have the experience.
Please note that besides my own experiences with LEDs are followed by others too. I think that should be valid somehow. that's why I was calling you guys to the other thread.

Grandis.
 
Paul B said:
I started my aquarium life using whale oil lights, then went to regular incandescents, to regular fluorescent, to gro lux fluorescent, to VHO, to compact fluorescent, to MH to a combination of quartz/ fluorescent/MH to LEDs and fluorescent to now just LEDs. I learned something in the 60 years I have been doing this. It doesn't matter what kind of lighting you have as long as you have the same intensity and spectrum.
But the whale oil was the best. :D
Click to expand...
Yep, the whale oil was organic! ;)

Grandis.
 
Do you have thought of your own on the subject?

You still have not addressed any of the points I made. You just keep referring to the same 500 words. Which by the way never concluded that you can not have a successful reef aquarium lite by LEDs alone.
 
Chewy.com
It isn't worth this argument. I've been running LEDs for almost a decade. I built the first (as far as I could find at the time) DIY fixture that was over 4' long using just blue and white CREE LEDs in 2007 under the advice of the man evilc himself. They grew corals without an issue. My tank today does the same using a Kessil. In fact I have a thread running that the Kessil might be too strong based on the nutrient levels in my tank.

@A. grandis you're not changing minds here you're just stirring up dissent. If you don't like LEDs don't use them. There are thousands and thousands of people who use LEDs successfully.

If @Paul B runs his tank, that is older than I am, with LEDs and is happy after having used everything under the sun, who is anyone else to judge?
 
bif24701 said:
Do you have thought of your own on the subject?

You still have not addressed any of the points I made. You just keep referring to the same 500 words. Which by the way never concluded that you can not have a successful reef aquarium lite by LEDs alone.
Click to expand...

That is not true! Go look my thread! I started with a long dissertation I wrote. Besides that, I've wrote way too much about it already, repetitively. Tired of that!
I've been writing again and again to show people the same points over and over, just so they don't think I forgot.

People brought all kinds of defenses in favor of LEDs and they all ended up turned AGAINST the LEDs. Go look that thread!
I'm just glad to show that other people had a bit more experiences with other fixtures too.
They probably have much more money than I do $$$$!!!
Just accept that as a fact, would you?!

But, why aren't you commenting those posts?
They have a great way to put their points and all the subjects regarding LEDs are true on their words! They have a great experience with LEDs and can surely talk about the fixtures, the market and so on...

Let me help you here:
You can have corals and zoas SURVIVING under LEDs. Yes. One can do the same with normal fluorescent bulbs, like the Coralife T12s!! Let me ask you this: is that what we as reefers should look for? Can it be a primary light source and at the same time provide even similar results like the MHs and T5s in the long run? No. Go read and look the video/pics! Open your mind!

LEDs aren't the best lights for them because of The LED's natural QUALITY! Go read what Sanjay said!! The best is MHs and T5s! Period. That's my opinion. Read the other posts for some of the explanation from others too.
Everyone has the right to tell people what they think and I did! You can do too.
Everyone is free to accept one's point of view or reject it. I'll respect that. No problem.
I'm tired of the LED games and lies of the market! All about money and the next cheep fixture with a high price tag to let people "try"!

The only thing I would agree is that it consumes less electricity and produces less heat.
You know what? You pay for what you get!!! This is a consumer's law!

Grandis.
 

IF YOU HAD TO TAKE A REEFING EXAM, WOULD YOU PASS?

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  • Other (please explain).

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