Black Boxes - Fire Hazard?

[Gareth elliott]

Only pieces of equipment ive ever had melt or burn are power strips and heaters. Power strips were US made ul listed. Have had UV bulbs burn out as well. These luckily caused the product to fail off as they are submerged in water.

So far i see one thread of a yes? Maybe we need a poll? Lights fail by fire or burning smell? Black box not black box? How many use black box vs non black box?

If 50 out of 500 black boxes fail and 1 out of 10 name brand lights fail, they still fail at the same rate, just 50 instances makes more news than 1.(completely arbitrary numbers above)

 

[jgadbois]

Just bought an AI Prime 16HD. When I turned it on the first time smoke started billowing out. Sent it back. Guess it can happen to any manufacturer.

 

[jez]

In my mind it's not Chinese components, as they are built into many areas of our daily life. It has more to do with business mentality and really pushing and managing quality with Chinese suppliers these days many can deliver to a high spec but often left to their own devices they will ship you something and proudly tell you they managed to save you money even when you have insisted the price is fair and quality is paramount. That cultural difference is starting to go with some of the more progressive companies and that's the real issue.

I had some prototype Led boards made last year I pushed them for quality and hell I got quality the boards looked as good as an old apple board they were works of art immaculate all driver components were the highest spec on the bench.

Stuff like Blackbox lights is a race to the bottom nobody is driving quality up they are just making margin by what they leave out or by finding a novel way to reduce BOM, like wafer-thin heatsinks poor quality transformers, LEDs from the BIN by the backdoor etc.

A US or EU company is as much governed by fear of the legal process, loss of reputation as regulation. If some random Chinese BlackBox company burns your house down you have virtually zero come back these businesses last only as long as there is a profit in that area and then they are gone.

So as much as there is a price premium for US/EU built product you are dealing with companies that have to abide by regulatory frameworks of their countries and loss of their reputation.

I think the number of Blackbox fires are not huge from what is seen around forums but when a product is made and sold in that type of low profit-driven market to me the risk potential is far greater.

 

[Fishingandreefing]

Only pieces of equipment ive ever had melt or burn are power strips and heaters. Power strips were US made ul listed. Have had UV bulbs burn out as well. These luckily caused the product to fail off as they are submerged in water.

So far i see one thread of a yes? Maybe we need a poll? Lights fail by fire or burning smell? Black box not black box? How many use black box vs non black box?

If 50 out of 500 black boxes fail and 1 out of 10 name brand lights fail, they still fail at the same rate, just 50 instances makes more news than 1.(completely arbitrary numbers above)

sadly I found people complaint more on the name brands equipments wonder why.

 

[Saveafish]

@Dana Riddle
The only ones Ive ever seen proof of doing this was the Tatonic about 10+years ago. Brs even brought it up but never put the name to it. The aqua viva or mars as most are running never has. Odessa about 10+ years ago did have a few that burned. Most was due to the fans stopping. I'd say most fires fron aquarium is fron the 6 plug 5$ power bars getting salt and water on them.

 

[jda]

Just to be clear, there is a difference between "stuff made in China" and "Chinese Knockoff Patent Stealing stuff." A power supply made for EcoTech is likely UL listed, safe and has all US/EU due dilligence. A Jeabo pump which stole Tunze IP/Patents are the ones that fake the UL stamp since they are not working with a legit US/EU company, so they just steal and lie. There is a BIG difference in the two.

A real Kessil - fine. A Chinese Knockoff Stolen Patent Kessil - probably not fine.

 

[um02122]

A Jeabo pump which stole Tunze IP/Patents are the ones that fake the UL stamp since they are not working with a legit US/EU company, so they just steal and lie. There is a BIG difference in the two.

I don't see any stealing from Tunze by Jebao in the product line in the last years. They've actually worked very well for me. Smaller size factor in the controllable pumps.

The Sicce pumps labeled Tunze, though...

 

[Brian_68]

Just to be clear, there is a difference between "stuff made in China" and "Chinese Knockoff Patent Stealing stuff." A power supply made for EcoTech is likely UL listed, safe and has all US/EU due dilligence. A Jeabo pump which stole Tunze IP/Patents are the ones that fake the UL stamp since they are not working with a legit US/EU company, so they just steal and lie. There is a BIG difference in the two.

A real Kessil - fine. A Chinese Knockoff Stolen Patent Kessil - probably not fine.

Ecotech Radion fixtures are not safety approved either. Perhaps their design is different but they did not get the approval to prove it passes. Many of the big name manufacturers do not get safety approval either when you look closely, perhaps only on the third party wall supply (ex. Kessil A80), or the wireless radio (Radion) but not safety on their products. Some just see a mark like CE and assume it is something it is not.

 

[AlgaeBarn]

Ecotech Radion fixtures are not safety approved either. Perhaps their design is different but they did not get the approval to prove it passes. Many of the big name manufacturers do not get safety approval either when you look closely, perhaps only on the third party wall supply (ex. Kessil A80), or the wireless radio (Radion) but not safety on their products. Some just see a mark like CE and assume it is something it is not.

My understanding is under 48V DC does not require UL/ETL certification. It's kinda a loophole (not sure how true). A lot of black boxes just plug in a D cable - straight 115V and then an onboard driver rectifies it to the proper DC voltage. This entire fixture would then require UL listing instead of just the power supply.

I think the big thing here is that the big aquarium LED companies have a reputation to defend, while a lot of no name manufactures race to the bottom in terms of components, QC checks, etc. I've also seen a lot more COB LED devices for sale on Amazon. These are super cheap -- you can even buy the LED chips and directly connect 115V or 230V wires to the chip. They get crazy hot and scare the crap out of me. You would need to mount them to a huge heatsink and epoxy coat them to prevent shorting. We don't use any at our current facility, but we have tested some. With the assembled fixtures, we've melted the lenses, fried the LED chips, fried the fans. I would not recommend.

Someone noted that a lot of weed growers must use the black box fixtures, but in Colorado, if you are doing a legal grow, you must use UL listed equipment or the fire department will make you change them out.

For many of our LED requirements, we purchase direct from an LED factory. This factory makes a ton of LEDs that are used in wet environments or even outdoors. Most of their LED modules are UL certified/listed (we have checked certificates) and are IP65 or IP66. They are significantly more expensive (not even including freight) than many of the black box fixtures you see on Amazon per watt, but I certainly sleep better at night.

 

[Hemmdog]

I don't see any stealing from Tunze by Jebao in the product line in the last years. They've actually worked very well for me. Smaller size factor in the controllable pumps.

The Sicce pumps labeled Tunze, though...

They are just busy stealing from AI... lol

 

[Brian_68]

They are just busy stealing from AI... lol

Well technically if it is not trademarked or patented you are not stealing. US companies do it as well.

 

[Kraff813]

Every time I've seen it brought up, it's always been "I heard about..." Never "My black box caught fire"

I had previously ordered a 165w black box for $68 on amazon and hung it over my nano reef. After a couple days running the light, I had a cyano algea outbreak. I was sucking this off the rock and gravel every 48 hours. I did some more research and found BRS reviewed these and noted the poor quality. They also discuss the fire hazard between minutes 1-3.


I immediately boxed it up and sent it back to the amazon seller.

Even if I wasn't concern of burning my house down, the spectrum of light this put off made cyano grow like crazy. I spent the money and moved to a Kessil, and within 3-4 days the crazy algea was gone.

 

[Brian_68]

I had previously ordered a 165w black box for $68 on amazon and hung it over my nano reef. After a couple days running the light, I had a cyano algea outbreak. I was sucking this off the rock and gravel every 48 hours. I did some more research and found BRS reviewed these and noted the poor quality. They also discuss the fire hazard between minutes 1-3.


I immediately boxed it up and sent it back to the amazon seller.

Even if I wasn't concern of burning my house down, the spectrum of light this put off made cyano grow like crazy. I spent the money and moved to a Kessil, and within 3-4 days the crazy algea was gone.

Some more I heard, he said they are a hazard, no details. Not justifying they are ok, as I did not like the spectrum either but the $800 dollar lights are not safety approved either when you actually look into it. They have to list the approvals and safety approval is not one of them, whether it is a black box, or high end light. The actual approval with UL, CSA etc is expensive and time consuming and tough to justify for a low volume product. Some get confused when they list the radio approval on the light since they may use a third party wifi module which is different than the safety approval.

 

[Vasilios]

I have 3 black boxes on my 125 reef. They are great. No algae and a lot of growth with my acros

 

[AbjectMaelstroM]

That old BRS video just needs to die... All it's doing is spreading outdated (mis)information.

The pure broad spectrum of the "Blackbox" category creates needless panic. Yes, you can buy a $40 "Blackbox" on ebay that has questionable components and wiring and then mount it where it will get salt creep and rust, never maintina it and it will eventually fail. You can also get a proven "Blackbox" like viparspectra or Mars Aqua, that I would guess are in the same likelihood of setting your house on fire as the $800 radions; at the same time growing coral just fine... As evidenced in these forums.

Unfortunately there are a multitude of issue at play, including people not doing due diligence to to verify information before forming and spreading their opinions and some tend to equate price to quality and function. Then I feel like there are some that just can't fathom that someone can get similar or better growth with a $100 light(s) than they are with their $400+ light. There is space in the hobby for both budget and premium fixtures and just because you didn't spend a mortgage payment on lights doesn't mean they'll burn your house down; or that it the root cause of your quarium going to crap when there's likely another issue in play (if you're getting algea blooms with a Blackbox you were probably going to get it if you ran a radion...)

 

[cvrle1]

I had previously ordered a 165w black box for $68 on amazon and hung it over my nano reef. After a couple days running the light, I had a cyano algea outbreak. I was sucking this off the rock and gravel every 48 hours. I did some more research and found BRS reviewed these and noted the poor quality. They also discuss the fire hazard between minutes 1-3.


I immediately boxed it up and sent it back to the amazon seller.

Even if I wasn't concern of burning my house down, the spectrum of light this put off made cyano grow like crazy. I spent the money and moved to a Kessil, and within 3-4 days the crazy algea was gone.

Many people run BBs without any issues and great success. I will be bluntly honest, but I am going to chalk up your issues to user errors and not light fixture (you sure you bought right fixture?). Also, as mentioned that BRS video is just wrong, which is too bad, as most of their videos are quite good and helpfull. Keep in mind that they dont sell these BBs so there is no reason for them to say they are good. If they did do this, their sales of every other light would go downhill lol. People seem to take what BRS says as gospel and follow their recommendations without doing much other research. BRS said it so it has to be true.

 

[ThatTennesseeBeardedGuy]

From my own experience I have had one of these catch fire. Now I am not sure if it was user error but I personally would never use one again. It caught fire at the base where it connects to the outlet. Some say it was water dripping down the line or something like that. However in this wet hobby I will never chance my house with them again. I have never heard of another main brand light catching on fire, so I won't chance it again. Plus the quality is just not the same as many of the other reef leds out there.

 

[35ppt]

From my own experience I have had one of these catch fire. Now I am not sure if it was user error but I personally would never use one again. It caught fire at the base where it connects to the outlet. Some say it was water dripping down the line or something like that. However in this wet hobby I will never chance my house with them again. I have never heard of another main brand light catching on fire, so I won't chance it again. Plus the quality is just not the same as many of the other reef leds out there.

Could have been caused by water dripping like you said or a loose fitting outlet. Either way the same thing would have happened with a radion or a BB. Any device can melt a socket/catch fire with those circumstances. Has nothing to do with BBs.

 

[ThatTennesseeBeardedGuy]

Could have been caused by water dripping like you said or a loose fitting outlet. Either way the same thing would have happened with a radion or a BB. Any device can melt a socket/catch fire with those circumstances. Has nothing to do with BBs.

Well the issue is that I had an electrician come to fix the burned outlet and he said that it was pretty obvious that the product wasnt UL listed because any of these UL listed products should flip a breaker instead staying on long enough to catch fire. He said they don't use proper grounding techniques and that the internal components were cheap as they come. Basically you may not have an issue, but 1 in 10 may have an issue. Basically he said go for UL listed items, because insurance wont cover non UL listed items causing a fire. Not worth the risk imo.

 

[AbjectMaelstroM]

From my own experience I have had one of these catch fire. Now I am not sure if it was user error but I personally would never use one again. It caught fire at the base where it connects to the outlet. Some say it was water dripping down the line or something like that. However in this wet hobby I will never chance my house with them again. I have never heard of another main brand light catching on fire, so I won't chance it again. Plus the quality is just not the same as many of the other reef leds out there.

Just for the "science" of the discussion, do you know the brand/model number by chance?