Can I use urine to maintain bacteria??

I fertilize my lawn each spring but I don't save up the family's you-know-what over the winter to do it

But I have done that too - also collecting pee from a folk college - the pee later used in the spring by a nearby farmer to fertilize his fields . It is free and it is recycling of resources. :)

Sincerely Lasse
 
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Lasse

When you posted my own thread as your proof that threw me for a loop.

Upon seeing that highlight link I thought: are you telling me I'm about to read a work thread that says I didn't see what I saw thirty years ago. Popcorn immediately
Then bam, I was deflated. Its a link that makes my case.


I linked a three year fallow test here, discounted.

Want to see a two year one? Would that make two people's stance any clearer if we did see more fallow threads... we might not notice or care about the pattern.

*An ideal way to make ground in a microbiology challenge is to set up a test tank and report what it does.

Make a test showing that you can't up cycle a tank using normal filtration surface area with water only. For marine systems, by first of the year if it can't process orders more ammonia than you gave it in cycling (give it zero) then you've got the article gold.
* If you can then never feed it ammonia again for two years, but keep it hydrated, and then it won't process ammonia at two year mark, that's all you'll ever need for proof.

You'll shut a multi page debate thread down in one link. Not really, they'll just ignore it
:)

Let the record stand this is the world's easiest claim to test or not. Making claims without collecting (making) work links is safe zoning.

Any reader

Make the experiment and let us know what you find. Chemists would never be caught guessing or failing to model a test.

None of this is arguing and I absolutely want Lasses input. If we aren't exposing and undoing bacterial myths we're at least discussing something relatively new for the hobby, so there's passion. It's not boring, we evolve reefing this way.

The reason I care so much is because the state of tank invasion/loss of animals/do overs/ waste is all tied to step one: how aquarists think about bacteria. A new aquarists -entire- hesitation vs deliberate action behavior depends on boundaries we choose for ourselves. What we think about bacteria sets those boundaries

Deliberate reefers win long term, lose less, better evolution. We might have prevented Mortie from coming back to a bloom of some type, now he'll come back to that acro Forest
 
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I think the majority of you will be pleased to know that I won’t be weeing into my tank... (maybe read up on urea as Lasse mentioned German reefers using it) so for now I’ll be implementing the following...
I need to maintain my SPS for the fallow period, I had a very efficient filter system that allowed me to feed very heavily and keep fish and corals happy, at levels of NO3= 15ish PO4 0.06 ish my concern is to not drop NO3 and PO4 levels to much to quickly, so I’m going to do the following please advise/ suggest alternatives
Open skimmer drain tap and allow back into sump (maybe remove cup but concerned about micro bubbles)
Feed reefroids and dd SPS paste daily to start with to stop NO3 levels dropping to quickly, then adjust frequency/ amount depending on nitrates etc
Reduce V&V tank dosing daily over next week
Turn off my Nitrate reactor feed pump (hopefully bacteria go dormant, I’ll keep the circulating pump on)
I’m assuming I have some PO4 bound up in rockwork so leeching should buffer the drop so not so concerned about these levels dropping to quickly
I have 40ish hermits and a few brittle stars will these be ok?
Turn off AWC in a week as I still have a fish carcass unaccounted for.
I have liquid NO3 and PO4 i can dose if tank levels drop to low
How does that sound?
 
found the oxidation test to show no dormancy just a quick follow up. Three years fallow and no feed and no heating and no circulation only water. This should close the case on dormancy, though any support for your corals will certainly still add to reserves of bacteria feed.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-microbiology-of-reef-tank-cycling.214618/page-10

Causing, measuring or attaining bacterial dormancy won't be found in the home it will always be a statement in the context of lab settings, clinical arrangements or university studies not conducted in a wet aquarium in a home.

Post# 189
 
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I tested the urine thing in the 90s it worked. Dunno long term effects, I broke down the tank after about 4 months of it being cycled.

To me, and I haven't done this in a long time, the best fishless cycle is parson's not sudsy ammonia and a piece of fresh shrimp. Leave the shrimp for a week while putting in a enough ammonia to keep it up to 3 to 4ppm every couple of days.

It will cycle pretty fast and be almost bullet proof.
 
I think the majority of you will be pleased to know that I won’t be weeing into my tank... (maybe read up on urea as Lasse mentioned German reefers using it) so for now I’ll be implementing the following...
I need to maintain my SPS for the fallow period, I had a very efficient filter system that allowed me to feed very heavily and keep fish and corals happy, at levels of NO3= 15ish PO4 0.06 ish my concern is to not drop NO3 and PO4 levels to much to quickly, so I’m going to do the following please advise/ suggest alternatives
Open skimmer drain tap and allow back into sump (maybe remove cup but concerned about micro bubbles)
Feed reefroids and dd SPS paste daily to start with to stop NO3 levels dropping to quickly, then adjust frequency/ amount depending on nitrates etc
Reduce V&V tank dosing daily over next week
Turn off my Nitrate reactor feed pump (hopefully bacteria go dormant, I’ll keep the circulating pump on)
I’m assuming I have some PO4 bound up in rockwork so leeching should buffer the drop so not so concerned about these levels dropping to quickly
I have 40ish hermits and a few brittle stars will these be ok?
Turn off AWC in a week as I still have a fish carcass unaccounted for.
I have liquid NO3 and PO4 i can dose if tank levels drop to low
How does that sound?

Very similar to my setup. By next week my corals coming. I keep eye on NH3, so far so good. Looks like you got under control.
 
I met a man who claimed to have done exactly that to start all of his tanks with no issue. Never tried it myself but thought I should share.
 
Ammonia/urine definitely supports bac. In this case, it's too much nitrogen blasting for that sps reef which doesn't need bac support since water is present. His corals needed food, agreed.
 
Thanks Lasse, it’s a home made one, uses V&V dosed into a recirculating chamber, uses rock rubble and coarse sand as media.
It was briefly discussed in this thread
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/controllable-deep-sand-beds-a-discussion-thread.424449/page-4

This is a total other situation. Here is no autotrophic nitrifying bacteria involved. This is the denitrification process. The responsible bacteria in this case is heterotrophic facultative (optional) aerobic bacteria. They can use oxygen in the metabolic process if it is present - but if it not present - they use nitrate instead. When using oxygen - mainly CO2 is the waste - if they use NO3 - mainly N2 is the waste. -> denitrification durin anaerobic conditions

There is another troubling factor involved here. If the NO3 read zero - other bacteria using sulphur in the metabolic process take over and their waste is the deadly hydrogen sulphide.

WARNING - If you just close the intake and let the internal pump work - you risk to create a hydrogen sulphide bomb.

I have the same problem with my remote reversal deep sand bed and I solve the problem with - for the moment - adding NO3 for it to work on, however when I leave for a while - I stop to adding organic carbon (DOC) and rise the incoming flow to a level that make the sand bed well oxygenated and I get a normal biofilter.

In your case - you can also put the filter in a bucket - recirculating water from the bucket trough it and add both DOC and NO3 to the bucket. Or clean it - store it - and start it over when you need to handle to high NO3 levels again

But please - do not just turn of the input and recycle - it can go terrible wrong

Sincerely Lasse
 
found the oxidation test to show no dormancy just a quick follow up. Three years fallow and no feed and no heating and no circulation only water

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-microbiology-of-reef-tank-cycling.214618/page-10


IMO - This can be explained with dormant nitrification bacteria that have been dormant (inactive but still living) for 3 years and start to be active again as soon as NH3/NH4 come into the tank again. For me - it is a good example of what we have state with dormant nitrification bacteria when a population once is established. They just cyst when there is no NH3/NH4- and awake when they get new energy source. Now you have prove us right with your own example - end of discussion

Sincerely Lasse
 
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Really? Dr Reefs testing showed that dormant bacteria took way longer than overnite to re express.

How bout this one, same thing again?
https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/383510-ammonia-processing-rate-of-established-tank/?page=2

Not my experiences during 40 years of experience. Please - a link to that test you refer to. During 7 years running of a submersed nitrification filter we saw this every third day when we backflush the filter - we restart the filter every third day to 100 % nitrification rate a couple of hours after backflush. The nitrification rate was down at 30 % because of to much organic load after three days. After removing the organic load - the 100 % nitrification rate start over again. I have at least 600 measurements of this. However, the propagation rate of them is low from a bacterial point of view - around 13 hours in pure media - in a biosystem probably more slow than that.

But can we please have this discussion in the other thread !!!!

Sincerely Lasse
 
Ok
Will resume there.
 
This is a total other situation. Here is no autotrophic nitrifying bacteria involved. This is the denitrification process. The responsible bacteria in this case is heterotrophic facultative (optional) aerobic bacteria. They can use oxygen in the metabolic process if it is present - but if it not present - they use nitrate instead. When using oxygen - mainly CO2 is the waste - if they use NO3 - mainly N2 is the waste. -> denitrification durin anaerobic conditions

There is another troubling factor involved here. If the NO3 read zero - other bacteria using sulphur in the metabolic process take over and their waste is the deadly hydrogen sulphide.

WARNING - If you just close the intake and let the internal pump work - you risk to create a hydrogen sulphide bomb.

I have the same problem with my remote reversal deep sand bed and I solve the problem with - for the moment - adding NO3 for it to work on, however when I leave for a while - I stop to adding organic carbon (DOC) and rise the incoming flow to a level that make the sand bed well oxygenated and I get a normal biofilter.

In your case - you can also put the filter in a bucket - recirculating water from the bucket trough it and add both DOC and NO3 to the bucket. Or clean it - store it - and start it over when you need to handle to high NO3 levels again

But please - do not just turn of the input and recycle - it can go terrible wrong

Sincerely Lasse
Thankyou Lasse, I think it’s best to remove it, and take it apart as you suggest it could be 6-12 months before my stock level is back up to need a NO3 reactor..
 
Thankyou Lasse, I think it’s best to remove it, and take it apart as you suggest it could be 6-12 months before my stock level is back up to need a NO3 reactor..

Your welcome

Sincerely Lasse
 
The way I see it, dosing urine is no different than dosing fish waste in order to maintain and existing population of beneficial bacteria in an established tank.

Except for potential bacterial pathogens in the urine, and the fact that human urine contains little ammonia.

Not a desirable plan that I would ever recommend.

It is trivial to get a different nitrogen source.
 

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