Chaeto issues again! Is there a better way?

[Dennis Cartier]

I'm assuming if Triton cant detect NSW levels, the same is true for me with a consumer based kit? What do you we use as a baseline for dosing and subsequently, ensure we dont go too high?

Randy had a guideline in his article (can't remember what it was at the moment), but the crux of it was that Iron is pretty hard to overdose (within reason) as it is so short lived in the water column. In fact, the DSR proponents dose it until they can measure 0.15 ppm using hobby grade test kits as a means of phosphate control. That is *a lot* higher than would normally be suggested.

I find your corals colouration to be a useful guide. Dose too much and everything turns green.

Dennis

 

[mgreenough]

FWIW, I think that is a debateable topic. In fact, we have been debating it at length in the Triton forum, but Triton has failed to respond with any justification of their claim that macroalgae does what they say.

Algae release "useful proteins, carbohydrates and metabolites."
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a...roteins-carbohydrates-and-metabolites.359116/

Yes, i agree most of it anecdotal but the main thing was that they did originally recommend leaving the algae bed to do its own thing. Then later on that changed to regular pruning probably due to people doing just that and having the algae bed melt overnight due to lack of nutrients.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I'm assuming if Triton cant detect NSW levels, the same is true for me with a consumer based kit? What do you we use as a baseline for dosing and subsequently, ensure we dont go too high?

Some dosing, with dose totally noncritical.

Red Sea recommends a massive dose (100 times more than I dosed), perhaps partly so people can measure it with a kit, but that much isn't needed.

https://5w56d28u4co20frgwagf5y18-wp...age-Manual_GB_DE_FR_SE_NL_SP_PT_JP_CH_17A.pdf
Red Sea claims:
Optimal level: 0.15 ppm of total iron (chelated and non-chelated) in an artificial reef aquarium

here's my comment from my Triton article:

http://www.reefedition.com/my-triton-testing-results-by-randy-holmes-farley/

Iron (Fe). The natural iron level varies a lot with depth, but surface seawater may have only 0.006 µg/L. The Triton LOD = 0.3 µg/L. I dose iron, and when I dose it I boost iron to roughly 1-2 µg/L, which would be detectable. This sample was taken more than a week after the last iron dosing, and none was detected as it gets depleted in the meanwhile. I’ve not yet seen a Triton test result for a real aquarium sample that had detectable iron, but that doesn’t mean these tanks are necessarily deficient. Iron is also a case where the form is critical, and ICP cannot distinguish form. Binding to organic matter, for example, can alter the bioavailability of iron.

 

[madweazl]

Thanks, appreciate the feedback.

 

[Water Dog]

To the OP, if you’re using Triton “other” methods, shouldn’t you pruning your chaeto back regularly, not letting it die off like how one would normally run a refugium? I thought Triton “other” methods lack the macro algae friendly additives that the Triton Core 7 system contains.

 

[USMA36]

To the OP, if you’re using Triton “other” methods, shouldn’t you pruning your chaeto back regularly, not letting it die off like how one would normally run a refugium? I thought Triton “other” methods lack the macro algae friendly additives that the Triton Core 7 system contains.

I was under the impression that I was not supposed to prune it back. I did prune it back about halfway today. My nitrates have spiked to 10. They are usually 2-5 my phosphates went way up to .2 they are usually .05. I through some GFO on to bring that back down to normal.

 

[Forsaken77]

Is there a better way of keeping nitrates at bay? I really like the pH effect but I can’t deal with Frowning great one minute making a mess the next. I’m going to try dosing the iron but if that doesn’t work I will need to find another way.

You could try Ulva, the lettuce algae. It's a lot less messy and good at uptake.

When I had chaeto I found that Manganese actually helped, but the mess chaeto makes in general made me abandon it. I think the supplements will be different for every tank based on what is lacking.

 

[Forsaken77]

I was under the impression that I was not supposed to prune it back. I did prune it back about halfway today. My nitrates have spiked to 10. They are usually 2-5 my phosphates went way up to .2 they are usually .05. I through some GFO on to bring that back down to normal.

Just asking, but why are you using "other" Triton instead of the "Core?" You're running a fuge and that's what the Core is for.

 

[Robert Vacchiano]

Tried chateo but had the same results then I tried the grape caulpera and taxafolia and it grows great a little water movement in a 40 gallon breeder and 75 watts of florecent lighting left on 24 hours

 

[Water Dog]

I was under the impression that I was not supposed to prune it back. I did prune it back about halfway today. My nitrates have spiked to 10. They are usually 2-5 my phosphates went way up to .2 they are usually .05. I through some GFO on to bring that back down to normal.

The Core7 method is where you shouldn’t be pruning back... or at least minimal pruning, where the die off is supposed to feed the tank with beneficial nutrients / sugars as claimed by Triton. The way you’re managing your refugium, it seems like you should be running Core 7 instead of “other”, for the added supplements for macro algae.

 

[Dennis Cartier]

I was under the impression that I was not supposed to prune it back. I did prune it back about halfway today. My nitrates have spiked to 10. They are usually 2-5 my phosphates went way up to .2 they are usually .05. I through some GFO on to bring that back down to normal.

I am confused. If your nitrates are normally between 2-5 ppm, and your PO4 is normally 0.05, then your cheato is not lacking for nutrients. I would suggest that it is probably lacking in Iron, and dosing Iron to avoid the die off, or to at least lessen its severity. When I was recently considering a switch to cheato, I had a look at the supplements that the Pax-Bellum folks who make the ARID reactors sell. The first additive that they provide contain Iron & Manganese and the second contains Nitrate and Molybdenum. They suggest always dosing the Iron supplement and only dose the Nitrate one when needed. Their guidelines are for operating their reactors, but I don't really see a difference in the needs of chaeto when grown in a reactor opposed to a fuge, so I assume that this would also be the case for fuges.

Kent makes an Iron and Manganese additive and I have been using that one for the chaeto in my fuge.

Dennis

 

[N1Husker]

I feed LRS once a day and nori every 2 or 3 days. As per Triton I don’t harvest the chaeto. I do try to rotate it every couple of days, less now because it makes a bigger mess. I’m going to try the iron tablets from a drug store desolved in Rodi. Does the mg of the pill matter?

I was having the same problem, then as a las t measure I changed the light. I bought a squeeze clamp light fixture and bought a combo red and blue led light bulb in it. The chaeto grows like crazy now. I read from BRS that you need a light purple light to grow chaeto. It solved my problem. I also aerate the refugium with a powerhead.

 

[USMA36]

Just asking, but why are you using "other" Triton instead of the "Core?" You're running a fuge and that's what the Core is for.

The Core7 method is where you shouldn’t be pruning back... or at least minimal pruning, where the die off is supposed to feed the tank with beneficial nutrients / sugars as claimed by Triton. The way you’re managing your refugium, it seems like you should be running Core 7 instead of “other”, for the added supplements for macro algae.

My refugium doesn’t meet the size requirements to run the full core7. I have a trigger 36 sump the refugium is less than the 10% total volume recommended.

 

[Water Dog]

My refugium doesn’t meet the size requirements to run the full core7. I have a trigger 36 sump the refugium is less than the 10% total volume recommended.

Gotcha... Then I would prune the chaeto regularly and supplement with iron and manganese as others have stated.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Chaeto needs a food source also. Ferron iron and red lighting will aid in growth and stability. I just packed 2 more quart bags as this stuff grows out of control for me

 

[madweazl]

I toss a few handfuls out every month or two. Sometimes the peaks correspond to this and sometimes they don't. I don't know what lead to the elevated levels in early September but I didn't change anything and they came right back down. Could have been test error, could have been legit but I didn't notice any difference in tank so I didn't mess with it.

 

[Jeff_H]

There are a lot of great suggestions bouncing around on solving your issue, but I'm wondering if we could get some more information on your system...

- Are you doing any other types of nutrient exports like carbon dosing, Zeovit, skimmer, water changes, etc?
- In your Ruby sump, is the Chaeto in the first chamber with the filter socks?
- Does the Chaeto tumble or float on the surface? If floating does it die back after it gets really thick?
- What is the turnover of the return pump in regards to your total water volume?

I went through a similar issue and eventually I was able to solve my problem, but not before trying carbon dosing and an ATS. Both methods worked, but I really wanted the benefits of macroalgae in a refugium so finally gave the Chaeto a third try after months and reading everything I could find on growing Chaeto successfully. Looking back I think my issue was a combination of things like a lack of elements already mentioned and low flow across/around the algae bed.

For other options - As mentioned by others, carbon dosing and an ATS will work great, all have pros and cons. If you do look into an ATS I would consider the Turbo Aquatics L2 or L4 that Bud makes. I looked at all of them last year and I feel he has the best design with a well-documented track record of happy customers. I'm not affiliated with him at all, just have experience reading on all the various options available in 2017 and first-hand success with the L2 I purchased last year. The only reason I'm not using it now is I feel the refugium is the lowest maintenance option assuming you can keep the macroalgae alive. I did have both running for a while, but my tank was too clean so I took it offline and packed it away for another tank down the road later this year that will not have room for a properly sized refugium.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

For other options - As mentioned by others, carbon dosing and an ATS will work great, all have pros and cons.

Hi Jeff; I'm just after some feedback,,, can you tell me what the cons were with an ATS, in your opinion.
Not wanting to take the thread off track,,, just a quick answer will be fine, & I won't reply

cheers

 

[USMA36]

There are a lot of great suggestions bouncing around on solving your issue, but I'm wondering if we could get some more information on your system...

- Are you doing any other types of nutrient exports like carbon dosing, Zeovit, skimmer, water changes, etc?
- In your Ruby sump, is the Chaeto in the first chamber with the filter socks?
- Does the Chaeto tumble or float on the surface? If floating does it die back after it gets really thick?
- What is the turnover of the return pump in regards to your total water volume?

I went through a similar issue and eventually I was able to solve my problem, but not before trying carbon dosing and an ATS. Both methods worked, but I really wanted the benefits of macroalgae in a refugium so finally gave the Chaeto a third try after months and reading everything I could find on growing Chaeto successfully. Looking back I think my issue was a combination of things like a lack of elements already mentioned and low flow across/around the algae bed.

For other options - As mentioned by others, carbon dosing and an ATS will work great, all have pros and cons. If you do look into an ATS I would consider the Turbo Aquatics L2 or L4 that Bud makes. I looked at all of them last year and I feel he has the best design with a well-documented track record of happy customers. I'm not affiliated with him at all, just have experience reading on all the various options available in 2017 and first-hand success with the L2 I purchased last year. The only reason I'm not using it now is I feel the refugium is the lowest maintenance option assuming you can keep the macroalgae alive. I did have both running for a while, but my tank was too clean so I took it offline and packed it away for another tank down the road later this year that will not have room for a properly sized refugium.

I am not exactly sure what my turnover rate through the sump is I have no real way to measure it. I use a jebao dct12000 return pump set about half throttle. I have one 1" return line to a T which supply two return lines into the tank with lock line nozzles. Head loss of about 3’ plus whatever is lost at the T and through the friction loss of the smaller lock line nozzles. No idea how to figure that out.

The chaeto is in the first compartment. It’s too big to tumble. I have two drains from the tank draining directly into the compartment. No filter socks. As recommended by triton.

I have an sc302 skimmer piped to fresh air.

No other nutrient export. Other than gfo as needed.

 

[Jeff_H]

Hey Steve - Since the OP was asking for suggestions on other methods I think it's inbounds to post this here. That said - This is just my opinion based on my experience comparing it to a refugium with macroalgae. I wouldn't say any of these are a big deal for most people, I just had certain goals for my 150-gallon build and it leaned me toward the refugium. Again, I really liked my ATS and will be using it on a new build down the road. They are both really good methods I just think one might be +/- better than the other based on specific usecase, space, budget, etc. The items below are what lead me to take the ATS offline and try the refugium again.

1. I don't manifold off my return line so I needed an extra pump which requires it's own maintenance and a two high dollar outlet on my EB832.
2. As easy as the ATS was to clean every couple of weeks, it's still easier to just remove some Chaeto every month or two which I throw in the trash, give away, trade, or could sell to the LFS.
3. The ATS would grow pod, but nothing like the refugium. I'm still considering a mandarin and I just don't think the ATS could keep one alive without supplemental pods being added.
4. I travel all the time for business so my design goal is to build in as much redundancy as I can to prevent a crash when Murray arrives. If the pump fails on the ATS and the light is on, you will fry the algae. In theory, if the power fails for long enough the same will happen once the algae dries out. If you lose the algae you lose a primary export method for 2-3 weeks while it regrows. The refugium doesn't have this issue.
5. The refugium seems to be able to scale better from a small bioload to a large one. The ATS is more of a sizing game based on the amount of food you plan to feed.
6. I did read so information on CO2 exchange being better with macroalgae, but I don't know if this claim was true.

I'm willing to discuss any of these points on a PM or via the phone if you would like.

Happy scrubbing!