Comments please on my return plumbing setup

[reefer antax]

looks fine to me... not much need for a UV sterilizer but that's just my opinion

I agree with you no need of the uv at all and make sure the does valve are not cooper at all....see the way I think. If you uses that spitler you going to have less water flow in the return flow but if you use only 1 you will get more water flow in the return valve.but that just me hope u understand my comment

 

[CaCrimson]

I modified my plumbing schematic to maximize flow.

Do any experienced eyes out there see anything I can improve on still?

For the UV skeptics, I am going to go with the UV and I can always turn it off if I find I don't need it later. I'd rather have it plumbed in and not need it than wish I had it later on...

Take note that the check valve section is actually going to be rotated 90-degrees toward the right, but my drawing skills are limited!

Thank you!!!

 

[AZDesertRat]

Check valves have no place in a reef system and are a false sense of security. As long as the return is close to the surface and you have sufficient freeboard in the sump they are never needed and will only cause problems. The volume that will flow back to the sump in a power outage is easily calculated and usually very little, heck in my 100G reef its a maximum of 3.4 gallons is all and thats 3/4" below the surface for the return nozzles in a 60" x 18" x23" tall tank.

 

[CaCrimson]

Check valves have no place in a reef system and are a false sense of security. As long as the return is close to the surface and you have sufficient freeboard in the sump they are never needed and will only cause problems. The volume that will flow back to the sump in a power outage is easily calculated and usually very little, heck in my 100G reef its a maximum of 3.4 gallons is all and thats 3/4" below the surface for the return nozzles in a 60" x 18" x23" tall tank.

Thanks for your comments! I have seen a lot of people like yourself that don't rely on check valves. Do you know if there is any harm in having a check valve in the plumbing, as well as having plenty of extra space in the sump (I do)? Is there any harm done if I used a check valve and siphon break together in the system, as sort of a redundancy to prevent backflow if I were to shut down my filtration for some reason (i.e. power failure)? I know a check valve isn't necessary if the system is designed right but can any harm be done if it fails?

Thank you again!

 

[AZDesertRat]

Yes, they restrict flow so add to head loss plus depending on the style can stick closed or partially closed as easily as open in a low flow, low head situation. Where you have high pressures like in a drinking way=ter system this wouldn't be critical but in and aquarium with a couple psi maximum its a huge deal. Even half closed means the difference between flow and no flow on a pump that only pumps 12 feet of head (5 psi) maximum.

 

[CaCrimson]

Yes, they restrict flow so add to head loss plus depending on the style can stick closed or partially closed as easily as open in a low flow, low head situation. Where you have high pressures like in a drinking way=ter system this wouldn't be critical but in and aquarium with a couple psi maximum its a huge deal. Even half closed means the difference between flow and no flow on a pump that only pumps 12 feet of head (5 psi) maximum.

Thanks for informing me. I did not know they can restrict flow so much! I will just keep the return high in the tank and hopefully that will be enough.

I wasn't really keen on using one anyway for aesthetic purposes. I know it would have been in the stand cabinet, but I could only find all-clear or clear and white flapper styles. There are some grey ball types, but nothing clear with grey. Could have always painted the pvc, but... None of them meshed with my black cabinet interior, schedule 80 plumbing, rimless glass sump wrapped in white vinyl 3-sides. I wanted to make my sump and cabinet as neat as possible. On a side note, I just came across Royal Exclusiv’s Dreambox. I didn't know a sump could be sexy until now. Mine is going to be pretty sweet, but I kind of wished I had seen them before I had this custom rimless glass sump built!

Thanks again for the check valve info.

 

[CaCrimson]

Wow, taking that check valve out really simplified my plumbing and looks like it will be a little less restrictive! Thanks for the suggestion AZDesertRat!

 

[Kbra]

Check valves have no place in a reef system and are a false sense of security. As long as the return is close to the surface and you have sufficient freeboard in the sump they are never needed and will only cause problems. The volume that will flow back to the sump in a power outage is easily calculated and usually very little, heck in my 100G reef its a maximum of 3.4 gallons is all and thats 3/4" below the surface for the return nozzles in a 60" x 18" x23" tall tank.

And every time you turn off a return you can listen to is sucking air very loudly. Its really annoying. I ran my old frag tank that way and had to had a ball valve just to avoid the noise every time. A check valve should not be your way to prevent overflow of sump but rather a convenience tool. A swinging check valve with no spring loads oriented in the vertical direction will have little to no issues for years. And if it ever does start to have minor leakby then swap it out of leave it. Advantage of union checks.

 

[Murfman]

Looking at your drawing on page 2, you don't show a standpipe as part of your drain into the sump. You should put one in there to reduce how much water flow spills into the sump, should you have a power outage. Durso style would work.

 

[mcarroll]

Just my $0.02 in no particular order....

• I'm not a fan of making your return pump multipurpose. There can be reasons to justify it, but generally I think it's bad strategy.
• I would run the reactor on its own pump....skip the ball valve here and just run the correct size pump. I would also skip the reactor, but I don't tend to stock so heavily as to need one.
• I know it differs from Emporer's installation recommendation, but if you run UV I would run 100% of your return through it directly up to the tank and size the unit according to your flow rate vs the tank size. I don't know why you want to run UV, but if it's for parasites (only good reason for UV to me), this would put you into a 02280. I think your choice is undersized even for your proposed installation if you're trying to manage more than algae. (Personally I don't run UV.)
• Check valves, like multipurpose return pumps, can be justified in particular circumstances (Emperor Aquatics recommends them but doesn't explain why), but generally make for bad strategy IMO. If you're thinking of installing one "just in case" you're probably better off without one. It shouldn't be a problem.
• Don't create your siphon break until you see where your tank water level is once the system is running. As has been mentioned, you really don't want the hole to wind up above the water line due to noise issues as well as the salt creep and dust the splashing will create. At the same time, you don't want to bring any more water down to the sump during a power-down than you have to. Having the hole "just under" the water line would be ideal to me. Should be easy to mark once the tank is running.
• For a 50 gallon tank, ~200 gph of flow through your sump should be completely adequate. Depending on what your installation's head loss will be, the 1262 should be overkill by a wide margin. Something in the 400-600 gph range should do the trick. If you're at about 5' of head a 1260 Universal would still be overkill, but better. An Eheim Compact+ 2000 or 3000 should be closer to the mark, if that Eheim line works for you. A QuietOne 2200 or Mag 5 would also make acceptable solutions, just to name a couple of other options.

Good luck!

-Matt

P.S. I'm a fan of simplicity. I'd replace that whole return mess with a single piece of tubing or PVC pipe, no valves or checks, and one correctly sized submersible pump.

 

[CaCrimson]

Thanks Matt! That's a lot to chew on =) I am going to try to digest it all and see what I can change. I'll post my changes for sure. I appreciate the time and experience.

In the immediate term:

• Contemplating UV!
• I am going to run the reactor on its own correctly-sized pump (that's a great idea and much easier than the mess I have going on). BRS has one with a MJ1200.
• I am going to probably go without the check valve for now as you and others mentioned. I can always add it later if I find I can't live without it like some people have mentioned.
• I will definitely wait to make the siphon break, if needed.
• Thanks for the tips on return pump sizing. I had originally selected the 1262 because of the UV. Do you think it's OK to oversize the return pump and put gate/ball valve on the discharge?

Just my $0.02 in no particular order....

• I'm not a fan of making your return pump multipurpose. There can be reasons to justify it, but generally I think it's bad strategy.
• I would run the reactor on its own pump....skip the ball valve here and just run the correct size pump. I would also skip the reactor, but I don't tend to stock so heavily as to need one.
• I know it differs from Emporer's installation recommendation, but if you run UV I would run 100% of your return through it directly up to the tank and size the unit according to your flow rate vs the tank size. I don't know why you want to run UV, but if it's for parasites (only good reason for UV to me), this would put you into a 02280. I think your choice is undersized even for your proposed installation if you're trying to manage more than algae. (Personally I don't run UV.)
• Check valves, like multipurpose return pumps, can be justified in particular circumstances (Emperor Aquatics recommends them but doesn't explain why), but generally make for bad strategy IMO. If you're thinking of installing one "just in case" you're probably better off without one. It shouldn't be a problem.
• Don't create your siphon break until you see where your tank water level is once the system is running. As has been mentioned, you really don't want the hole to wind up above the water line due to noise issues as well as the salt creep and dust the splashing will create. At the same time, you don't want to bring any more water down to the sump during a power-down than you have to. Having the hole "just under" the water line would be ideal to me. Should be easy to mark once the tank is running.
• For a 50 gallon tank, ~200 gph of flow through your sump should be completely adequate. Depending on what your installation's head loss will be, the 1262 should be overkill by a wide margin. Something in the 400-600 gph range should do the trick. If you're at about 5' of head a 1260 Universal would still be overkill, but better. An Eheim Compact+ 2000 or 3000 should be closer to the mark, if that Eheim line works for you. A QuietOne 2200 or Mag 5 would also make acceptable solutions, just to name a couple of other options.

Good luck!

-Matt

P.S. I'm a fan of simplicity. I'd replace that whole return mess with a single piece of tubing or PVC pipe, no valves or checks, and one correctly sized submersible pump.

 

[CaCrimson]

Thanks for looking out. I actually left out a ton of stuff. This thread was just to focus on my return plumbing. I am doing the Herbie method so I will have a main and emergency drain.

Looking at your drawing on page 2, you don't show a standpipe as part of your drain into the sump. You should put one in there to reduce how much water flow spills into the sump, should you have a power outage. Durso style would work.

 

[AZDesertRat]

There is no need for a drilled hole siphon break, the return nozzle serves that purpose. There is no way it can plug or fail, it does not create a sucking sound on reverse flow and it is simple. The best form of backflow prevention known to man is an air gap. The air gap is accomplished when the retrun flow drops the tank level below the return nozzle and the siphon breaks. We all know water cannot jump uphill so the backflow is stopped and cannot be defeated. No maintenance, no extra parts to fail, no noise and a positive break. Everyone wants to complicate the most simple things for some reason. Keep the sump level at a point where you can store a fw extra gallons and you will never ever have to worry about a flood or failure.

 

[fragmatic]

Did you have the siphon break hole just below the water surface?

I would be leary about a check-valve. Wouldn't take much debris getting lodged in there to cause a failure.

I agree, I know many use a check valve on their return lines but from my experience I would never design a system so that it relies on that check valve during a power failure. After months of use they tend to get slimmed and gummed up and leak enough to flood your sump. It is much wiser to be sure your sump can handle all the water that can return during a power failure. A check valve is nice to hold the water near full level in the display tank while you do short time power offs such as feedings but not as a stand alone safety measure.

And, as some one said be sure to put a siphon break at each return to prevent display, refugium, etc water from draining back any deeper than the depth of where it is. In my case these are holes I punched into the tubes ABOVE water level. I then pushed air valves into those holes with super glue jell. Then I put a short length of air hose on them and let them become mini fountains in my tanks. I make sure they are always spraying a small amount of water. Now if I loose power they instantly suck air and break the siphon suction. Thus I have one more redundant safety measure to prevent a disaster on my floor.

 

[Eggs]

And every time you turn off a return you can listen to is sucking air very loudly. Its really annoying...

That should stop as soon as the siphon breaks. How often do you have to turn off the return, feeding and maintenance?

 

[Kbra]

That should stop as soon as the siphon breaks. How often do you have to turn off the return, feeding and maintenance?

Yes.

 

[Kbra]

There is no need for a drilled hole siphon break, the return nozzle serves that purpose. There is no way it can plug or fail, it does not create a sucking sound on reverse flow and it is simple. The best form of backflow prevention known to man is an air gap. The air gap is accomplished when the retrun flow drops the tank level below the return nozzle and the siphon breaks. We all know water cannot jump uphill so the backflow is stopped and cannot be defeated. No maintenance, no extra parts to fail, no noise and a positive break. Everyone wants to complicate the most simple things for some reason. Keep the sump level at a point where you can store a fw extra gallons and you will never ever have to worry about a flood or failure.

My flow accelerator made a lot of noise while breaking siphon

 

[Mike&Terry]

you could save some money and complexity by putting a single union below the T coming from return pump. That way, when you need to clean the pump, etc., you only have to take the one union loose.

 

[CaCrimson]

Thanks everyone for posting their recommendations. I am taking everyone's advice and am trying to implement it and make changes to this return plumbing.

I got so excited last night because I got my new Leemar 65 gallon Starphire! Unwrapped it after carrying it upstairs with a bud and found they used the wrong color siilicone from what was ordered (it was black and I really, really, really wanted clear silicone = ADA style)!!! It went back today and I think it'll probably be another month until re-delivery of the re-siliconed tank. Nothing's esasy, right!?! But, I know it will be worth the wait. Good things come to those who wait...I hope! At least this gives me time to sort things out with my return plumbing. By getting the tank, it helped the carpenter (the stand maker) know where to route out the hole for the overflows, which was done today.

Thanks again everyone and I am going to modify this return plumbing mess, simplify it and post my changes shortly!

 

[CaCrimson]

I have made a few changes taking the advice I have received so far into consideration.

For now, I am going to stick with the Eheim 1262. I have considered downsizing the pump (advice from mcarroll) since I won’t be running the reactor off it. I have read the only difference between the Eheim 1260 and 1262 are the intake volutes. If I find I have too much power, I will order the smaller volute and swap them out. Since I will have gate valves on the pump discharge, this will be my main means of slowing the flow if it’s too much. I think I would rather have a little extra horsepower than not enough. I can always tee the Locline off into two nozzles as well later.

I am going to go with the UV for now. Reason being that I have found UV to be really helpful for my health (Vitamin D) and also in my air purifiers that I can believe the benefits that the manufacturers and other users claim. I know there’s a lot of debate. For now, I would rather install it and run it from the beginning of my setup. I will turn it off if I find it’s causing problems or generally not helpful. I wish I could go larger, but the 18 watt Emperor is the largest my cabinet will handle. I have a small/short cabinet for a 65H. I have the gate valve on the inflow to control the GPH.

My Locline plumbing has changed a little to reflect information I recently learned also on R2R.

All comments welcome and everything is appreciated. Thanks to everyone for their advice. I admit it is hard sometimes to take everyone’s advice and make a decision. In this hobby, I’ve come to realize that there are so many ways to reach the same outcome.