Corraline algae and ozone

  • Thread starter Thread starter Cory
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Cory, have you got much SPS growth in your tank? I want to try to increase coraline growth too and I was wondering if SPS growth could be correlated with SPS growth, since they both calcify etc. I mean it seems a pretty obvious connection I suppose. I know my conditions don't support SPS growth at the moment as my frags arent growing. And I have no corraline (down from 'some but not much' a year or two ago). I suspect that the combination of pH, alk, calcium and organics are reducing the calcification 'pressure' of the water to far too low a level for either SPS or corraline. Having done quite a bit of reading and also bugging Randy for information, I have learnt that despite good alk and calcium, for instance, your water can not be good for calcification if you have say low pH, as the water will be a long way away from calcium carbonate precipitation under these conditions. Raising alk and or calcium will bring it closer to the threshold for calcium carbonate precipitation but too high alk or calcium is said to be bad for corals. So you can raise pH to keep calcium and alk in the right place, but still provide a strong 'pressure' for calcification.

Also, organics or phosphate in the water reduce calcification, as pointed out in many of Randys articles. I know my phos is below 0.01 (0.00 on hanna). But organics might be higher so I am wondering about GAC. Ozone dosent seem to reduce organics as much as I thought it seems, again from one of Randys articles. I never realised either of these facts until I reread a load of Randys articles much more slowly than previously.

But overall I am becoming fairly convinced that pH (from too much CO2) is whats keeping my calcification 'pressure' low. Do you use kalk btw and if so how much?
 
I'm Assuming since purple corraline algae is purple it reflects all colors in that wavelength and absorbs the rest for photosynthesis. Do you find in your tank that corraline grows in the lower intensity places only?

I've noticed it grows on the underside better than the top it seems- indicative by the presence of white edges.

You've said your tank diddnt grow any corraline in te first year. You suspected organics. But that doesn't make sense, newer water should be more free of organics no? You had the same skimmer right?
 
Cory, have you got much SPS growth in your tank? I want to try to increase coraline growth too and I was wondering if SPS growth could be correlated with SPS growth, since they both calcify etc. I mean it seems a pretty obvious connection I suppose. I know my conditions don't support SPS growth at the moment as my frags arent growing. And I have no corraline (down from 'some but not much' a year or two ago). I suspect that the combination of pH, alk, calcium and organics are reducing the calcification 'pressure' of the water to far too low a level for either SPS or corraline. Having done quite a bit of reading and also bugging Randy for information, I have learnt that despite good alk and calcium, for instance, your water can not be good for calcification if you have say low pH, as the water will be a long way away from calcium carbonate precipitation under these conditions. Raising alk and or calcium will bring it closer to the threshold for calcium carbonate precipitation but too high alk or calcium is said to be bad for corals. So you can raise pH to keep calcium and alk in the right place, but still provide a strong 'pressure' for calcification.

Also, organics or phosphate in the water reduce calcification, as pointed out in many of Randys articles. I know my phos is below 0.01 (0.00 on hanna). But organics might be higher so I am wondering about GAC. Ozone dosent seem to reduce organics as much as I thought it seems, again from one of Randys articles. I never realised either of these facts until I reread a load of Randys articles much more slowly than previously.

But overall I am becoming fairly convinced that pH (from too much CO2) is whats keeping my calcification 'pressure' low. Do you use kalk btw and if so how much?

I dont have any sps corals yet. Im still seeing if i can grow other calcreaous species first, like corraline. I do have some xenia which grows fine, some star polyps, which are growing on the bare glass. I have a gbta, hes alive, but doesnt seem to be growing or shrinking, which i dont feed. The corraline doesnt grow on the live rock. It was a darker purple when i got the live rock. Now its lighter purple. I guess its adapting.

My ph is unknown currently. I live in a drafty apartment, and suspect it should be at least 8.2. But well see when the Apex arrives what it really is. Ive thought ph could be a culprit too. Do you dose limewater? I think the guy that had that beautiful tank i posted about earlier, he used limewater too.

Im also going to suspect humic substances. But i havent experiemented yet with ozone and carbon.
 
Hi Cory,

The tanks many years old, although its been fish only, softy coral etc during various phases. Only for the last say 3, maybe years have I had much interest in SPS. For a while it took me a long time to learn how to keep my water OK for SPS to even survive, up till about 2 years ago. I had a phase about 2 years ago to 1 year ago while I had a bit of success, bit of SPS growth and a little corraline. Then the tank crashed and I have not spent much time on it for the last year. So I would have had organics for the entire period I spent trying SPS. Organics can build up pretty quick in the water too, things like algae secrete organic compounds, for instance.

I never had much success so far, but worst success since having a kid, and now our lifestyles keep us in the house more with businesses run from home. So CO2 will have been higher during the period I had the least success. But thats not to say its the reason, could just be coincidence. That said, I am reading a lot about low pH being associated with high CO2 from people, and well sealed houses. Its only the last week or two that I realised I was probably a victim of high pH too, although that dosent mean its the reason for my failure so far. I did the pH test with my water and had a big difference in pH (ie high CO2).

Same skimmer btw yes. Re light, I dont believe now myself light is that important (or exact wavelength is important). The biological processes AFAIK do not require an exact wavelength but as long as a photon is high enough energy (ie close enough to violet), it will fuel the reactions of photosynthesis etc. I used to obsess about getting a smooth black body spectrum like sunlight but I dont now. Look at the success people have with spectrally spikey halides and LEDs for reasons a smooth spectrum is not required. Plus look at the success people have with all sorts of light and I think it seems that corals et al will grow well under many different lights of different spectrums. Pure red would not be good I suspect, but white or bluish white seems fine, and AFAIK scientifically that makes sense (but stand to be corrected if someone can point out contradicting info). Fancy lights are mostly for our entertainment IMO.

My corraline also slowly lost colour till it went white and I assume died over many months, initially. When I started getting a bit of success, it stayed the same colour on new bits. So I think corraline going lighter is a bad sign myself (was for me). Whats your nitrate and phosphate? They do need to be quite low I understand. When I had success with softies I think my water was not that clean, when I got into vodka dosing, softies slowly reduced in size over months to nothing. So I guess now that I starved them out. There was zero nuisance algae though! But it seems that people can have softies with coraline growth so there must be a middle ground between starving your softies and flooding your coraline with nitrate / phosphate.

Anyway I come back to calcification. I have very slowly learnt the details of calcification and its not something I ever really got control / understanding of before. I had best coraline growth when I used kalk as top off. When I moved away from it, looking back, my coraline started going downhill at that point. But I used 2 part so I thought I was fine (IE I was taking care of calcium and alk, but not pH, which kalk does). During the period I used kalk I had my best success with coraline although still not great, but I didnt have much evaporation either, so not much OH going into the water (to bring the pH up).

Now, I have finally learnt enough about carbonate / pH etc to begin to understand it. Because I dont want to raise my alk too much, I am wondering about removing CO2 to raise pH. If you were OK with high alk, or you have a lot of SPS or coraline (ie lots of calcification), you could either dose kalk if you have lots of evaporation, or dose 2 part with the sodium (bi)carbonate being replaced with sodium hydroxide. That would raise pH and alk together, and as CO2 is absorbed from the air, your pH drops again and all you are left with is raised alk. If you have corals taking that alk you are OK, but if like me you dont, you are stuck with high alk, and your pH still ends up low again after a few days. So the only other way to raise pH without raising alk is to remove CO2. Randy took me through all this over the last few days in several current threads, you can find them and get the details straight from him, I am sure he explains better than me.

The long and the short is that I am going to try a CO2 scrubber in the hood of the tank. If I just run the skimmer intake through a CO2 scrubber, that will still leave the tank water surface as an area that it can absorb CO2 from. So while the skimmer is removing CO2 with its CO2 free air, the tank is sucking CO2 from the room air. If I seal off the room air with a hood over the tank, and put a scrubber in that to remove the CO2 from the air in it, it should suck the CO2 from the tank, keeping the alk the same, but raising the pH, which will force calcification. As the tank animals and bacteria metabolise they will create more CO2 which will hopefully be released via the large surface area of the tank and absorbed by the scrubber.

For reasons of gas exchange and the rate at which the CO2 laden air is processed, I calculate that you need thousands of liters of air per hour going through the scrubber rather than hundreds as you get with a skimmer, which is why I believe this would be more effective than a skimmer scrubber. But my calculations or assumptions might very well be wrong. Doing this with an air stone etc would not work well IMO. But a scrubber with a small fan will pass thousands of liters per hour so would be effective. BTW this is to do with the fact that to keep CO2 at such a small level you need to process the air fast. I can explain if you want but its probably not necessary.

So either kalk, hydroxide based 2 part, or a high flow scrubber might be the solutions, and the only solution for low calcification tanks AFAIK is the scrubber, which need not be complicated I think, it means having a hood on the tank, and inside the hood, a bit of pipe with a fan at one end, packed with sofnolime (or I will try a diy solution, builders lime, as its 15 times cheaper as I detailed in another thread). Or maybe even just a tray of sofnolime in the hood would work, specially with a little fan to circulate the air in the hood well. Ive read other thread where people try to use airstones for this but physics just dont seem to work out for me, and they didnt seem to get success.

Phew long post. Sorry!
 
Oh I should add that a small amount of air exchange with the outside is required to provide oxygen, but not much. In my 55 gal I will just use a small 100lph air pump to add air into the hood. That will only add a tiny amount of CO2, but will add about 1 lb of oxygen a day, which I think will be plenty (with no justification for that figure so YMMV!).
 
Oh I should add that a small amount of air exchange with the outside is required to provide oxygen, but not much. In my 55 gal I will just use a small 100lph air pump to add air into the hood. That will only add a tiny amount of CO2, but will add about 1 lb of oxygen a day, which I think will be plenty (with no justification for that figure so YMMV!).

Well I think ph has a huge effect on calcification. Maybe Randy knows why.

The Co2 scrubber is a good idea. According to Eric Bornemans article, The need to Breathe, a powerhead at the surface of the water doesnt effect gas exchange much, especially oxygen. But a protein skimmer does a much better job. I wonder based on this information if you ran a fresh air hose out of the house, and had the skimmer draw in fresh air, it migh be enough to raise the ph. What do you think?

My alkalinity stays the same for weeks now, a constant 8dkh. Calcium too. What does drop consistantly is my postassium. I raise it back up every two weeks. I dont do water changes, so maybe someone who does wouldnt have this issue.

Ill let you guys know what my ph is later on when the Apex comes in. Then we can see whats up.

Ive read a scientific article experiementing with corraline algae on the reef, they put inputs of po4 and no3 directly into the water. They found corraline algae growth was stunted or stopped growing with very little po4. We are talking from .003 to .05.
 
Yea I have read a load of people did the pipe out of the house thing and it worked fairly well for them. Like 0.2 pH increase. But I am hoping for 0.5 increase as I am around 7.9 to 8, so its probably not for me. The problem is you are creating CO2 in the tank, and if you just aerate with normal air which has CO2 already in it, its not going to be that efficient at CO2 removal. Aerating with air with zero CO2 would bring the pH up more, all other things being equal. Additionally you really want a skimmer with a very large air draw, although mine is quite big for the tank at 500lph, ideally you want a far bigger one, and that amount of air would cause increased evap for me. Evap is bad for me because I am getting condensation in the house, as well as being expensive to heat. But if you have a real small tank, or you live in a place with warm air (so you can ventilate your room easily), thats probably better.

Can you post the link or name of the corraline studies you mentioned? I would like to read as much as I can on that kind of topic at the mo. Corraline really is my number 1 priority right now. Thats really odd about the potassium too, never thought K would be depleted in a tank without SPS. Maybe I should test for it... and I will read the article by EB now over my coffee!

Cheers, Pete
 
Thx for the link. I guess the scrubber lasts a time depending on how much air youre sucking through it, and how much CO2 is in that air. Very rough calculation, outside air contains 0.03% CO2, and soda lime absorbs very roughly half its own weight in CO2 iirc. So a 500 litre per hour skimmer draws about 12kg air a day, which is 3.6 grams CO2 a day. So 100g of soda lime would last about 14 days like that, assuming it is 100% efficient at using up all the soda lime. Not certain of the numbers though! Maybe ask Randy if its important to know. Randy suggested that he thought the scrubber on the skimmer would be less effective than the recirculating scrubber btw. I'm trying to do some calculations regarding CO2 and scrubbers but I hit a hitch and asked Randy for help in another thread. But so far it looks to me like the best way to scrub CO2 from a tank would be something like a trickle filter with a fan and the soda lime scrubber stuff recirculating the air. Let us know if the SG / GAC helps with the corraline! Hope so.
 
I run ozone.
Helps keep my water clearer and my ORP elevated. Without it, my ORP readings are under 200 mV.
Haven't had any issues with any of my tangs.
I have my controller set to turn off the ozone off if it gets above 390 mV.
And I run it for just a few hours in the morning after lights on.
 
Sorry Randy, I must have misunderstood re the skimmer / hood air scrubbing.

The articles on oxygenation by Eric B that Cory mentioned were interesting. I realised my previously held belief (that everyone seemed to tell me for years) that air stones don't contribute even nearly as much oxygen as water movement at the tank surface was wrong (IE his tests seemed to show that bubblers were far more effective than strong water movement). I wonder if oxygenation might be a proxy for CO2 depletion.

Cory, I'm not sure if I am doing the calculation right, but it seems to me that a 500 lph air flow of 0 ppm CO2 air would be about the same as a gallon of saturated kalk per day, which seems pretty good.

Calcs:
500 lph = 12 kg / day air,
In air = 0 ppm CO2,
Out air = 300 ppm CO2,
12 kg * 0.0003 = 3.6 g CO2

Kalk:
1.7 g / l = saturated kalk,
3.8 litres / gallon,
1.7 * 3.8 = 6.5 g Ca(OH)2

CO2 absorbed by 6.5 g Ca(OH)2:
CO2 = 44 g / mol
Ca(OH)2 = 74 g / mol
44 / 74 = 0.59 (weight of CO2 absorbed by kalk = 0.59 * kalk weight)
0.59 * 6.5 g = 3.9 g CO2

So a gallon of kalk absorbs 3.9 g CO2 while a skimmer with 500 lph and running with an input CO2 of 0 and an output CO2 of 300 ppm would absorb 3.6 g CO2 (but without the alk rise). I guess a real world situation would be much less efficient. In theory though, if those calcs are right, then about 9 grams a day of soda lime would be used to scrub the air (as long as it was outdoor air, or say 27 grams a day of indoor air at 900 ppm CO2).
 
I run ozone.
Helps keep my water clearer and my ORP elevated. Without it, my ORP readings are under 200 mV.
Haven't had any issues with any of my tangs.
I have my controller set to turn off the ozone off if it gets above 390 mV.
And I run it for just a few hours in the morning after lights on.

Thanks for sharing. I'll probably do the same, but at night as oxygen falls when photosynthesis stops. I think running ozone is a good idea for oxidizing ammonia. Ammonia is always scaring me.
 
I'm not sure if your calculations are right, but they seem logical. If personally like to use a reusable media that can be recharged.
 
Yea me too but I'm not sure if there is any CO2 absorbing media that can be recharged. And soda lime is quite expensive. I might try builders lime, since it won't be going in the tank, and only air will be going through it.
 
Will do Randy. Although today, I am flipping back a bit to dosing NaOH... I keep finding benefits of 'the other' way, once I think I have made my mind up about what approach I am going to take.

On the one hand, if CO2 stripping is used, and its powerful enough to handle the extra CO2 produced if something dies, then its probably too powerful to use all the time (pH will rise too much). If I have a sealed tank and CO2 stripping which keeps the pH about right under normal conditions, then when something dies, CO2 will rapidly rise too much (very bad if I am away from home for any length of time).

If I use NaOH, then if there is die off, the pH will fall a lot (with a sealed hood). As well as causing alk to rise normally. I could involve a computer and use a probe to monitor pH and alert me so I can give it 'permission' to increase NaOH dosing if there is die off and the pH drops too much, but alk will still rise under normal conditions. Nothings perfect. And theres the danger of the pH probe reading low too.

Randy, could you make a guess as to what kind of level alk would rise to in a tank with pH of 8.5 ish, and calcium 550 (with say about 5g of NaOH going in a day)? I mean I guess abiotic precip will limit the alk, but at what kind of level? Or is that too variable to even guess at? Continual precip of calcium carbonate (whether abiotic or biotic) might be a good thing to remove organics and phosphate I now realise so maybe engineering continual precip under controlled conditions would be a good thing.
 
Ok got the Apex online.

Ph ranges from 8.05 at night and the highest it went to was 8.15 in the day.

It appears the corraline algae does grow a bit but grows best in shaded areas.
 
Cory, FYI, my pH problem has almost gone away with one simple mod.

My pH which did read 7.9 now reads 8.4, since running my simmer intake outside, upping the air flow to max by removing the restrictor entirely (had to raise the skimmer cup a long way for this and I am still dialing the skimmer back in now). This change, 0.5 pH units, is far greater than what others have reported and I do suspect the probe and a bad reading, but still, it points to a significant increase.

I have a cup of water which I will leave a bubbler in (bubbling indoor air through the cup of tank water) during the day tomorrow when the room is full of kids and mums, to see if that measures 7.9 again by the end of the day. If the direct tank water still reads 8.4 and the cup of water reads 7.9, I will be reasonably confident that I have a close to 0.5 pH difference from the outdoor airline. If this is correct then I think that is good enough for me and I won't bother with the scrubber.

My tank is small (55) with large skimmer (500 lph air) and what must be low CO2 generation inside the tank for results like this, which seems almost impossible from the calculations, unless my alk kit is reading low (higher alk would push my pH reading higher for a particular level of CO2 in the tank). I mean at that pH, this tank CO2 seems almost in equilibrium with the outdoor air (400ppm CO2), not a result I thought possible.

Anyway I thought you might be interested. I've moved back to the question of ozone and organics which I asked another question about (batch wise ozonation) in the forum but it hasent had an answer so I guess Randy has no opinion on it. You might be interested though since this is kind of similar to your original post in this thread. I was just wondering if stronger ozoneation might be possible if it was done in batches, but not sure about how to make the water safe again after. Would be good if I could get an expert opinion somewhere on the likely residual chlorates and bromates if this was done.
 

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