DC Pump Aggravation - No Re-Start after Short Power Loss

[ca1ore]

If it has nothing to do with the anti-reverse technology, are you suggesting that the pump just doesn't have the immediate torque available to defeat the backward rotation caused by the backward-flowing water?

Yes, precisely. Though I'm not just 'suggesting' it, I'm saying that in my system with my PanWorld 200 pump it demonstrably happens. Now, I cannot say why it happens in some instances but not others. I run 1 1/2" flex PVC from my basement sump, about 16' of it. That's a lot of back flow moving at a sizable speed. I never had the problem for example, when I ran this same pump up through a similar length of 1" vinyl hose. Perhaps it is problematic only in more extreme cases like mine.

 

[ksed]

I think we need some help here.
@Brew12

 

[Brew12]

I think we need some help here.
@Brew12

Thanks for the invite!

This is all conjecture, but I think that a lot of it has to do with soft-start also. Most "DC" pumps start soft and do not have a lot of wattage available in the beginning. If the controller senses a voltage interrupt, then they shut down (similar to how a Tunze will beep at you).

I suspect this is what is going on, also. This feature is what allows DC pumps to be more efficient at higher head pressures than AC pumps. I feel the most likely cause is that the controller isn't properly sensing and resetting from the power outage. Even if it is working correctly, the force of the back flow could be keeping it from starting. Starting a DC pump is a little tighter than an AC pump. One of the main reasons they need to be kept cleaner.

 

[jda]

The Tunze pumps will pause for a few seconds and then try again if they sense an issue with the voltage. Perhaps this feature will be available for all pumps soon.

 

[ca1ore]

As an aside, I have to say I'd like to see a good quality DC pump designed for high head applications that doesn't cost $1,500. Until then I guess I'll just have to limp along with Iwaki and PanWorld.

 

[ksed]

Sicce SDC is supposed to be better for higher head pressure but I heard they are noisy.

 

[Brew12]

As an aside, I have to say I'd like to see a good quality DC pump designed for high head applications that doesn't cost $1,500. Until then I guess I'll just have to limp along with Iwaki and PanWorld.

To further that thought, I would like to see a high quality, high efficiency AC pump designed with an internal bypass or collapsible veins to allow starting in high head applications.

We have them in industry (especially for hydraulics) but I'm guessing it isn't cost effective to design and build them for hobby uses.

 

[jda]

As an aside, I have to say I'd like to see a good quality DC pump designed for high head applications that doesn't cost $1,500. Until then I guess I'll just have to limp along with Iwaki and PanWorld.

This might not be possible. The only way that any DC pumps are more efficient is to run large impellers at lower RPM, but this is all low head - they found an inefficiency with high RPM, small impeller AC pumps to a degree. I am sure that a DC pump could be developed to handle the head, but there would not likely be any energy savings... after all, it takes the same unit of measure to overcome the same amount of physics with the same efficiency. In head related pumps, there is no inefficiency to remove since head dwarfs any other pressure. Even the $1500+ DC pumps that can do some head are not energy savers over a newer (relative) AC pump. I have to think that if this were possible, it would be done already.

 

[redfishbluefish]

In anticipation of receiving the surge/delay device.....with a three minute delay restart:

...that takes up two outlets, I made a separate outlet box just for this device. This way it's not taking up a valuable spot on the PB8. A couple bucks from HD and a leftover short wire/plug that I had.

Now let's just hope this fixes the problem!

 

[mcarroll]

Yes, precisely. Though I'm not just 'suggesting' it, I'm saying that in my system with my PanWorld 200 pump it demonstrably happens. Now, I cannot say why it happens in some instances but not others. I run 1 1/2" flex PVC from my basement sump, about 16' of it. That's a lot of back flow moving at a sizable speed. I never had the problem for example, when I ran this same pump up through a similar length of 1" vinyl hose. Perhaps it is problematic only in more extreme cases like mine.

Ever consider a Dolphin or Reeflo? Those are more standard for the type of setup you have. I'd select a Dolphin 6250 if budget is of minimal concern....it'll run up to $700 with top-of-the-line seals, but it'll also blast 3300 GPH at 16'. And I don't think it can have this run-backward thing happen since it's direct drive.

 

[ca1ore]

Ever consider a Dolphin or Reeflo?

Yes, in fact I have used both in the past. I'd not go Reeflo again - just too unreliable for my tastes. I did have a good experience with the Dolphin. My issue is that I have no easy way to upsize the intake to the 1 1/2" that the Dolphin requires (or maybe it's even 2"). I'm constrained to 1" unfortunately; without doing major surgery to the sump, which at this point I am unwilling to do (plus my sump is a repurposed Oceanic 150, so I am not even sure that I could over-drill the bulkhead holes even if I wanted to - nobody to ask if it was tempered). So I am stuck with needing a reliable, pressure-rated AC pump that can run on a 1" input pipe. That doesn't leave a great many options ...... . I do agree, BTW, that a direct-drive pump is less likely to suffer from back spin.

 

[RichtheReefer21]

I am a rookie as well... And I am constantly sifting through pump deliberations here...

No one ever seems to mention Eflux return pumps... My mentor runs 11 tanks at his house. All sumped. and also care-takes for several 500g+ customers weekly.

He swears by the adjustable DC EFLUX, its all he uses... and that's what I am considering for my custom sump I am making...

Why is EFlux never mentioned? Are they not good?

 

[jda]

I have seen a few. They are in that limbo area between the ultra-high reliability market like PanWorld, Iwaki, Laguna, Fluval, Ehiem, Tunze, GenX and the cheap world of Chinese Knockoffs. They always seem to not have the rep of the high-reliability stuff, but also are not as cheap as the knock-offs. That usually means slow sales.

Me? I do not trust any DC pump enough yet to use it for a return, except for Royal Exclusiv. When they are around for 5-7 years without any modifications or "upgrades," then I might look into one. Until then, I will spend the extra 5 watts and just run a Fluval or Laguna.

 

[redfishbluefish]

I am not convinced that this back-spin phenomena is the problem.


The surge/delay start outlet arrived today, and I attempted to mimic a power outage by unplugging the Waveline pump. First instantanious unplug - plug, then 5 second, and final 10 seconds of being unplugged. The pump restarted every time. I could not re-create the stall I've been seeing. Anyway, this delay outlet is in and I'll just have to see what I get!

 

[mcarroll]

I did have a good experience with the Dolphin.[...]So I am stuck with needing a reliable, pressure-rated AC pump that can run on a 1" input pipe.

If you have room...

Bypass the (absurd!!) 1" bulkhead and use a Dolphin 6250 mounted over the sump with priming basket on the pump inlet so you can suction water up from the sump even after a power outage.

 

[ca1ore]

I think that would likely create more problems than it would solve. Regardless, I'm satisfied with the current 'arrangement'.

 

[BZOFIQ]

This is perhaps the only sensible use of a check valve. I chose to not use one on my system because of the flow losses - and I need every GPH I can get. Interestingly, I recently bought a whole-house standby generator, and when utility service cuts out, the generator takes 30 seconds to spin up so the delay programmed into my apex becomes even more important.

Care to share your program? Please.

 

[ca1ore]

Sure .....

Fallback ON
Set ON
If Power EB832_2 OFF 003 Then OFF

Basically means if the energy bar that runs the main pump loses power, the main pump outlet will delay turning on after power is restored for 3 minutes. You'll see I'm using the EB832. I'm not absolutely sure whether the power command also works with the older energy bars. I think it does, but haven't tried it.

I also use this on my UV. Unless the ballast is allowed to cool down, it won't restart. In that case it's the same command as above just with a 10 minute start delay.

 

[BZOFIQ]

Sure .....

Fallback ON
Set ON
If Power EB832_2 OFF 003 Then OFF

Basically means if the energy bar that runs the main pump loses power, the main pump outlet will delay turning on after power is restored for 3 minutes. You'll see I'm using the EB832. I'm not absolutely sure whether the power command also works with the older energy bars. I think it does, but haven't tried it.

I also use this on my UV. Unless the ballast is allowed to cool down, it won't restart. In that case it's the same command as above just with a 10 minute start delay.

Thanks, judging by the code I take this is impossible with a classic? Are the ugly new power strips backward compatible with classic?

 

[ca1ore]

Well, you could just substitute 'EB8_x' into the If Power string and see. I'm just not sure if the more extensive power monitoring capabilities of the EB832 are required. EB832 is not compatible with the classic. LOL I agree with the new ones being ugly .....