Debating between High end equipment or NOT? is there a justifiable difference?

[ca1ore]

For most higher end products the pricing does reflect research and development costs and higher labor costs.
It seems to me that Jebao can be cheaper because they aren’t doing any research and development. They have much cheaper labor.
I don’t feel comfortable supporting a company that has no qualms with copying other companies designs. I don’t care how well these pumps work. The cost for these Chinese pumps is much higher than their price tag.

Lots of 'higher end' products take advantage of low cost labor arbitrage. Even products that claim 'made-in-america' are just assembled here with most of the components and assemblies made in places like China. Chinese made does not necessarily mean cheaply made. A company like Jebao can undercut the competition because they don't have the same levels of R&D costs (you are correct on that) since they just rip off and reverse engineer existing designs, and they don't use top quality parts. Folks like sleif would know specifically, but I'd imagine even red dragon or Abyzz use Chinese sourced components.

 

[Cory]

I believe that a Ford focus is vastly underpowered from a Porche. Price difference is huge. The porche has better parts, stronger parts. Better quality leather etcetera.

Are skimmers the same?

Well if i look at the bubble king and compare it to a sca-302, there is a huge difference. The bubble king is thicker. It has a titanium impeller. Its better designed.

A ford focus and porche will both get you there. But one will get you there much quicker.

 

[legionofdoon]

Life reef equals junk. Not the same as it was many years ago . If anyone is interested I do have a flanged svs3-24 i would sell Cheap just so i don’t ever have to see a life reef product ever again

They are exactly the same as they were years ago. Only thing that has changed is colored acrylic slightly larger air intake and a opening for the venturi. Is there a quality difference in the bodies now? I have the svs3 24 and it's been great so far.

 

[mrpizzaface]

Lots of 'higher end' products take advantage of low cost labor arbitrage. Even products that claim 'made-in-america' are just assembled here with most of the components and assemblies made in places like China. Chinese made does not necessarily mean cheaply made. A company like Jebao can undercut the competition because they don't have the same levels of R&D costs (you are correct on that) since they just rip off and reverse engineer existing designs, and they don't use top quality parts. Folks like sleif would know specifically, but I'd imagine even red dragon or Abyzz use Chinese sourced components.

Even if some parts are sourced from China, I am sure companies like Abyzz and Royal exclusiv have much higher labor costs than Jebao.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Abyzz states every component of their pump is made in Germany.

 

[shoelaceike]

I see a lot of comparisons between high and low end cars. It is well known that high end cars make way more profit than low end cars. So while buying high end will likely get you a better product, its usually not that much better relative to how much more it costs.

 

[Dan_P]

There is no good answer (maybe you already know that). It's mostly people 'thinking' that one performs better than another (assuming sized properly). One can infer performance from the amount of skimmate removed, or measure things like nitrate and phosphate and correlate better numbers with skimmer efficiency. I suppose some folks might measure dissolved organics levels; I'd have not the foggiest idea how to do this. Fortunately it's unnecessary.

I paid a bit more for my skimmer to get better build quality (1/4 and 1/2" cell cast acrylic), not because I have any illusions that it will necessarily perform better but because I want it to last 20 years. Same for my return pump.

OK thanks.

I think we are stuck selecting our skimmers on material of construction, looks, size, and estimated longevity rather than performance. Ever wonder why manufacturers never provide performance data?

 

[Shooter6]

I believe that a Ford focus is vastly underpowered from a Porche. Price difference is huge. The porche has better parts, stronger parts. Better quality leather etcetera.

Are skimmers the same?

Well if i look at the bubble king and compare it to a sca-302, there is a huge difference. The bubble king is thicker. It has a titanium impeller. Its better designed.

A ford focus and porche will both get you there. But one will get you there much quicker.

The porche will spend a far larger amount of time being serviced, and lose its value at a far greater amount over the same time/milage. Just pointing ot a fact.

 

[Gareth elliott]

There are plenty of quality options out there for almost all equipment that have a lower price with out lower performance.

Look at your needs and specs of each product.
Sometimes something is more expensive because its smaller than another option. Or they used more expensive materials for aesthetics. Look at reviews there are loads of high end equipment that have poor reviews. Dont go low on critical items like a return pump. If your return pump fails, all that additional equipment in your sump(ato, skimmer, heater etc). Is now no longer doing anything.

 

[mrpizzaface]

The porche will spend a far larger amount of time being serviced, and lose its value at a far greater amount over the same time/milage. Just pointing ot a fact.

The car analogy though correct in spirit can easily be pulled apart in actuality. A better analogy would be industrial machinery. European industrial machines are far more expensive than their Chinese counter parts. The European machines, are more realiable, more durable, and maintain a much higher resale value (despite their much higher retail price).

 

[ScottB]

For the most critical equipment (return pumps, heaters, controllers) buy only the most reliable. In my experience that has led to Sicce(5 year warranty), Aqueon Pro(lifetime warranty), Apex(1 yr ) respectively. I know I just cursed myself. dang.

I keep (used) spares of almost everything except the controller (too expensive) and skimmer (runs part time anyway).

No one has mentioned the tanks yet. That is a pretty crucial consideration IMO. I will never buy a used tank nor a bargain one. Red Sea has never let me down. (dang. Double cursed now.)

 

[Rares]

Hello reef mates,

I know that magic things cost a lot, but i would like to share my experience with some equipments: return pump and wave makers.
I wont argue against the idea that expensive is better quality, but quality vs price. And ... of course, this is personal. So, i really like Tunze and Jebao, aren't best or top ranked, but are doing a decent or good job for that money.
Return Pump: Jebao SineWave vs Sicce vs Oase.
Sicce is reliable, but costly. Some models are death silent. No tuning option, not adjustable. Less heating pump on comparable flow rate. Tunze is using excesive Sicce pumps for different aplication. Used one for more than 2 years free of maintenace - no issue
Oase is not remarcable in any aspects, prety noisy, not adjusting. Imho, is disipating more heat in the water for same water flow performance.
Jebao - is my prefered one . Is average power rate, heating or noise, but at the price of 60% of a high performing Sicce. What i really like is the 1% increment adjusting option. That plus an adjusting Open siphon (BeanAnimal) makes it easy to setup a dead silent water return flow. Displaying the power consumption (W) is a also a nice "gadget".

 

[Rares]

Wave makers: Jebao vs Tunze
Two of my prefered suppliers. Tough decision ... Tunze has never failed to me, despite of a poor maintenace, one / year. On the other hand , price is double RW vs Turbelle for same flow . I dont mind the shiny leds of Jebao controller, is doing same job as Tunze's controller. Both are about same noisy, but Tunze from the very begining. I would like to consider Tunze 6095 a better option than RW4 to RW15, but with the new SOW things changed, imho. A SOW20 is doing same job as a Stream3, same noise, same flow, same power consumtion, coparable heat disipation (not quit sure, yet). What is different ? Jebao has moved the electronics from pump to the controller to make room for four brushes. In this way they tried to avoid rotor shaft blockage. If this will be proved on time, definetly i would recomand the SOW instead of a (reliable) Tunze Stream 3, due to the price more than twice less.
Two SOW20 will take care of a proper flow for a tank of 2m length, but up to the width, it may require another pair for tanks wider than 600mm. Interesting, the return pump (Sine Wave) could be used as additional wave maker
Almost forgot, first week is a bit noisy, than is just a wisper that is covered by any silent led cooler. For comparison, an external Vortex (MP##) is a lot more noisy than SOW20

If reliability will be proved over years, imho, Jebao's DCP return pump and SOW wave makers will be one of the best "bang for the buck"

 

[Simplicity Aquatics]

My opinion...

First, try to stay away from a dc pump skimmer. They are completely unnecessary, imo. The pump should be tuned optimally to the skimmer body (ac). If you're adjusting flow on the skimmer I feel it's not tuned correctly and you're left trying to find the sweet spot that the ac pump skimmer already has.

Forsaken I tend to agree with you while we still use a controllable DC pump in our skimmers. There are 2 times when this can really come in handy. One is if the user has too deep of water and is unable to change it (cannot raise it due to stand height etc). You can slow it slightly and still use it. Another, more common and super useful time is when adding something known to make a skimmer go nuts. A certain food, chemical, unrinsed filter sock etc. Rather than de-tuning your skimmer you can simply slow down the pump as needed, and once settled you can slowly raise it again. For example if you want to treat your tank with Chemi-clean but as most are aware this makes skimmers go off the hook. By slowing the skimmer you can still run it, and not have to screw up your previous energy tuning it.

How do measure skimmer performance? For example, how are you determining the percent of the system’s dissolved organic material being removed per hour?

Most use air intake vs wattage vs cost etc. not ideal, but a reasonable place to start.

 

[Cory]

How i measure skimmer performance is based on contact time witb bubbles. This is accomplished a few ways. One is by having small bubbles as they take longer to reach the surface. Another is to have a really tall skimmer. And the last is to have the skimmer recirculate the top water back to the bottom. Mostly what this does is allow more organics to stick to tbe bubbles. You could also do the same with many skimmers instead of one tall one.

 

[MURedhawk]

Tunze ATO running strong 5.5 years
Well worth the expensive price tag

ASM mini G skimmer - about $120
Same motor and still running on new tank 5.5 years later

Aquatic Life T5HO
Running strong x5.5 years - about $340
New Reefbreeders LED V2 Photon - about 450-500 (only 3 months old)

Ecotech mp10s x 2 running strong 5.5 years
Only slight syncing problem with slave after it became wet in water leak
Well worth the price
(I had one Jebao wp10 about 3 years ago and it was louder and broke in less than one year. So for price and breaking in less than one year (about 50-60?) that was not cost effective purchase vs Ecotechs.)

Mag drive 7 return pump 5.5 years running strong and never cleaned. Great value, not controllable, slightly louder than DC pumps but great value - I gave away after setting up new system. Changed to Jebao 6000 return and it is quiet however only 3 months old so cannot comment on long term.
Prices - about ?60-79 for mag drive vs about ?$100 for Jebao