Deep sand beds. Who still uses them?

[Thespammailaccount]

At least at the time of the article Dr. Shimek used this and had done a lot of testing of this method. And at least at the time of the article had been doing it for years. I would argue that he is in the top 5 most knowledgeable and respected people for their knowledge and the articles and info they put out.

Thank you for the valuable source of information

 

[Thespammailaccount]

I think think a DSB has it's merits, I wouldn't recommend it to a "fairly new reefer".

Non-chemcial filtration, especially protein skimmers, rotating marine pure blocks in the sump & macro algae system to name a few have gotten so efficient, we now see a trend in threads on adding NO3 and PO4 into tanks, and dino/cyano threads where low nutrients are at the root cause (as opposed to the more common to high nutrients being the issue).

I 100% agree that cured live rock (rock that is covered with coraline and bacteria but cleaned of the dead organics) gives the new reefer a much better start.

I agree with you 100%. The only problem is that finding such rock other than the round smooth dense ‘live rock’ boulders is like trying to find a needle in a haystack

 

[Thespammailaccount]

I think think a DSB has it's merits, I wouldn't recommend it to a "fairly new reefer".

Non-chemcial filtration, especially protein skimmers, rotating marine pure blocks in the sump & macro algae system to name a few have gotten so efficient, we now see a trend in threads on adding NO3 and PO4 into tanks, and dino/cyano threads where low nutrients are at the root cause (as opposed to the more common to high nutrients being the issue).

I 100% agree that cured live rock (rock that is covered with coraline and bacteria but cleaned of the dead organics) gives the new reefer a much better start than dry and other forms of rock).

Luckily I was fortunate enough to find 60 pounds of well established pukani rock for the 70 gallon that the LFS owner right across the street was finally willing to sell me. No cycle and diatom bloom on the live sand for less tank a week and a half.
Since then I have been collecting rock for the future upgrade and have managed to collect 200 pounds of Fiji pukani Tonga and even Marshall island rock from trusted sources but it is all dry and will take a year if not more before I would even consider calling it a somewhat stable system.

Here is a link to a interesting article comparing rock types to filtration capability

Live rocks porosity comparison | Aquaroche

aquaroche.fr

 

[R.Weller]

We built a remote sand bed & refugium following the guidance from Dr. Shimek using a 55gal shallow Rubbermaid stock tank that sits above our sump & drains into the return chamber. The biodiversity is incredible & it alone is something to enjoy. We run a skimmer & DIY algae scrubber...no other fileration. Nutrients are 0.

The DSB is only about 1 year old. I plan to see what happens & share the results over the next 5.

 

[NanoDJS]

Im a sand all the way kinda guy , and for alot of reasons ... stability being the main one, and biofiltration. I started with sand and thats the way it goes for me , now everything said sofar is valid . Sandbeds are a science all unto themselves. You def need the right sand , and the correct CUC , that being said more people choose to not deal with it and impliment alot of $$ equipment to try and pickup the slack the sandbed takes care of . You do not need a DSB , make it like 2-3 inches of some sugar grain sized stuff , its gonna take a while to grow in before you need like sandsifters other than nasaruis . Be weary of black sand for magnetic properties , and its light absorption contributes to algae. I think its 1000% worth it

 

[Thespammailaccount]

We built a remote sand bed & refugium following the guidance from Dr. Shimek using a 55gal shallow Rubbermaid stock tank that sits above our sump & drains into the return chamber. The biodiversity is incredible & it alone is something to enjoy. We run a skimmer & DIY algae scrubber...no other fileration. Nutrients are 0.

The DSB is only about 1 year old. I plan to see what happens & share the results over the next 5.

Yes please keep us posted on your results

 

[Miller535]

Yes please keep us posted on your results

A lot of DSB's start having issues in the 5-10 year range. They were a lot of the tanks that were deemed to have, "old tank syndrome". But again, I think a lot of those people did not follow Dr Shimek's advice.

 

[bam123]

Fairly new reefer but gravitate away from chemical forms of filtration. Currently I employ a refugium and macro reactor. I am intriguing with the concept of a deep sand bed. Pros? Cons?

They are great for the first 1 to 2 years and then start to crash. Has happened to me many times. Regardless of how many critters you have living in there. AVOID. I currently run an algae reactor, big skimmer, ceramic bioballs, and barebottom with great alternating flow, AWC and couldn't be happier. I clean my glass once a week!! Rocks have no green algae. I know people love their sand, but to each their own. I hate vacuuming and putting my hands in the tank.

 

[brandon429]

one thing we discovered in our work thread that I think has never been posted online anywhere else:

-the notion that sandbed surface area and bacteria are neutral to filtration abilities when removed immediately without ramp up (removing a dsb does not leave insufficient bac or surface area, live rocks are always enough)

Every poster on the internet thought we'd have to remove slowly, to allow bac time to ramp up on rocks but it does not work that way at all, we show. Bac do not compile on rocks to make up for lack of sand, the bacteria arent even required at all so ripping them out/or tap rinsing/didnt hurt whatsoever. Live rock manages its own bac loading independent from other substrates.

we killed a false reefing paradigm in that thread independent of the param controls for no3

this allows for more successful home moves and relocations knowing we do not have to hesitate at all when removing sand (its inherent waste is the risk). We have digital ammonia tracking included for proof too

we showed that working in partials is actually not as safe as working the whole bed at once, for the access jobs on file.

 

[Thespammailaccount]

one thing we discovered in our work thread that I think has never been posted online anywhere else:

-the notion that sandbed surface area and bacteria are neutral to filtration abilities when removed immediately without ramp up (removing a dsb does not leave insufficient bac or surface area, live rocks are always enough)

Every poster on the internet thought we'd have to remove slowly, to allow bac time to ramp up on rocks but it does not work that way at all, we show. Bac do not compile on rocks to make up for lack of sand, the bacteria arent even required at all so ripping them out/or tap rinsing/didnt hurt whatsoever. Live rock manages its own bac loading independent from other substrates.

we killed a false reefing paradigm in that thread independent of the param controls for no3

this allows for more successful home moves and relocations knowing we do not have to hesitate at all when removing sand. We have digital ammonia tracking included for proof too

we showed that working in partials is actually not as safe as working the whole bed at once, for the access jobs on file.

You said live rock manages its own. Yes I can attest to that. Bought the 70 gallon in December. Set it up put in live sand filled with water. The next day I bought the well established pukani rock (at the LFS less than 5 mins away please do not do this if you have rock shipped) and put it in the tank and transferred the fish and the coral from the 10 gallon. No cycle. Small diatom bloom on the substrate for a week and a half. No losses or tissue recession

 

[GeoSquid]

I also remember years ago on a now defunct forum from Marine Depot reading a post from Eric Borneman on keeping a "Box of Water". I had been keeping saltwater fish tanks for years and years but was always afraid of trying coral from looking at all the additives and equipment they sell at the LFS. This post got me into keeping corals. He had a 40 gal breeder with nothing but a Deep Sand Bed and a lot of powerheads he called the box of water. No other equipment. He added live sand he collected himself from the wild with so much micro life in that the sand bed would move on it's own. He had a couple corals in his main tank that weren't doing well, so he just threw them in this tank and they recovered. He had some sort of small fish that got it's tail completely bitten off and he thought it would die, so he threw it in this tank and it got better. Everything he put in the tank thrived. He eventually had lot's of sps in this tank and he was always afraid it would crash, but it never did and the corals grew faster to the point he was putting cups of Ca to keep up with the growth. So, its seems if you do a DSB correctly, it can be very beneficial.

 

[brandon429]

for sure I recall it. Eric was the one who motivated me the most in the hobby it was his reefcentral forum next to Rons

the first reef lesson I ever got was Eric telling me that reefs need to be fed, corals weren't classified as autotrophs for a reason.

 

[bam123]

I also remember years ago on a now defunct forum from Marine Depot reading a post from Eric Borneman on keeping a "Box of Water". I had been keeping saltwater fish tanks for years and years but was always afraid of trying coral from looking at all the additives and equipment they sell at the LFS. This post got me into keeping corals. He had a 40 gal breeder with nothing but a Deep Sand Bed and a lot of powerheads he called the box of water. No other equipment. He added live sand he collected himself from the wild with so much micro life in that the sand bed would move on it's own. He had a couple corals in his main tank that weren't doing well, so he just threw them in this tank and they recovered. He had some sort of small fish that got it's tail completely bitten off and he thought it would die, so he threw it in this tank and it got better. Everything he put in the tank thrived. He eventually had lot's of sps in this tank and he was always afraid it would crash, but it never did and the corals grew faster to the point he was putting cups of Ca to keep up with the growth. So, its seems if you do a DSB correctly, it can be very beneficial.

In the late 80 and 90s, DSB with plenulums were the rage as they kept nitrates down and were a great buffer. Over time, people abandoned them because they become phosphate traps. To each his own, but I think their is a reason people who have had thriving tanks for more then 3 years (the majority of them ) do not have DSB. It's so easy to have low nitrates and low phosphates with algae scubbers or chaeto reactors and to have good alkalinity dosing 2 part, as well as AWC, that I see no reason to have a DSB. THe exception of course being for certain anemones, garden eels, rays...

 

[fish farmer]

In the late 80 and 90s, DSB with plenulums were the rage as they kept nitrates down and were a great buffer. Over time, people abandoned them because they become phosphate traps. To each his own, but I think their is a reason people who have had thriving tanks for more then 3 years (the majority of them ) do not have DSB. It's so easy to have low nitrates and low phosphates with algae scubbers or chaeto reactors and to have good alkalinity dosing 2 part, as well as AWC, that I see no reason to have a DSB. THe exception of course being for certain anemones, garden eels, rays...

i'd like to add to this. My current 29 gallon reef which was set up around 2010, old rock, shallow sand, seemed to always have some phosphate issues, either due to operator error or possibly my 8 to 10 year old rock.

Around 2012 I added a "refugium" between the DT and sump, hands off, low flow sandbed 3 to 4" with some larger pieces of 7 year old rock. I still had lingering high phosphate and sometimes very bag algae issues.

I started to get more diligent with WC's and testing, initial nitrates were 40ppm and phos was 2ppm...not .2 or .02...a good dark color on the salifert test.

In the fall of 2018 I added a cheap grow light and some chaeto to my sump. Over that winter it started dropping nitrates and phosphates. Nitrates were gettting down 5ppm, but phos was still hovering around .5ppm.

I separated the "refugium" tank from my DT and sump the summer of 2019. My nitrates and phosphates have continued to drop, in fact the phosphate have measured zero on a low range hanna kit. I had a boost in nitrates due to an exhausted DI cartridge, but once I fixed that nitrates have bottomed out again.

I have never seen my nitrates and phosphates this low in my reef expect in the first couple of years of my first tank in 2000.

I seen no need for a sand bed, but will still keep some sand in the DT for now. I would also like to add I did add a better performing skimmer last year as well.

 

[GeoSquid]

I now have a shallow sand bed and use a refugium and ATS. I think the key to a DSB is to keep lots of micro animals living in it.

 

[Hyde2406]

I agree with you 100%. The only problem is that finding such rock other than the round smooth dense ‘live rock’ boulders is like trying to find a needle in a haystack

Tampa Bay saltwater has amazing rock so do a bunch of other places down here in FL salty bottom, KP aquatics and I can't remember any more but do search you'll find them, I have personally bought from Tampa Bay saltwater and can say it is the nicest rock I've ever seen!

 

[ABQjoe]

I'm just returning to the hobby after a very long hiatus, but I had a very happy and very successful 5-year-old 55-gallon and a 6.5-year-old 120-gallon display tank with deep sand beds, from 1987-98 (started saltwater in 1986, after almost 15 years of FW.) The reef world has evolved drastically since then, mostly for good, but I disagree with the move away from deep sand beds.

I'm a huge proponent of keeping as diverse an ecosystem in my tank as possible, including a DSB, live rock, microalgae, and a purposeful fish and coral selection. I'm more conscious of environmental impacts now, so I wouldn't pick up Fiji live rock at the airport, even if that were possible. The cultured live rock they're making in the ocean in Florida looks pretty awesome anyhow. IMO, you won't ever have as successful DSB without quality live rock with lots of critters in it.

My DSBs always had 3-4 inches of oolite with about 2 inches of aragonite on top. I had already been 7 years into saltwater, so I had the patience (and bad memories) to let the 120 tank DSB establish itself with an extended 8-week, 4-stage nitrogen cycle until the bed had a good anaerobic bacteria layer that was converting nitrates to nitrogen gas before I began adding livestock. That's excepting the sand crew, which (excluding live rock hitchhikers) I added at 4 weeks. I've always used lab-grade ammonia to cycle tanks, cruelty-free. That's easier to deal with now that Dr. Tim's is around; I used to have to go to a chemical distributor.

When I started my 120, I had another DSB in my old 55g converted aquarium-turned-sump/refugium (kind of primitive by today's standards and homemade, just one glued-in divider with my skimmer, 2 heaters and a return pump on one side (1/3) and the input and DSB (2/3) on the other) that only had (after nitrate showed) a diverse macroalgae farm of gracilaria, chaeto, several caulerpa types, and dragon's breath in it as pod habitat to feed my future blennies and mandarin, as well as for overall water and tank health. I don't know what the big variety of macroalgae did, only that I wanted whatever it contributed to the ocean to be in my ecosystem too, and my tank looked awesome and was remarkably stable, so I guess it worked. The macroalgae barely grew after the DSB fully cycled, and I rarely clipped it, maybe every two months, indicating that the DSB was doing its thing and exporting converted nitrates as nitrogen gas.

I landscaped the display with calcified macroalgae about 4 weeks into the cycle, and began light kalkwasser dosing, and used live phytoplankton and daily light feedings to encourage pods, critters, and my live rock to establish a very strong ecosystem. By the time I added livestock, pods were everywhere.

After around 8-9 weeks, I added a BTA and a couple of percula to start, then added a coral or fish every week until the tank was populated. I added bacteria for a couple of days every time I added livestock, to negate the added load until the system adjusted, which wasn't long, maybe 3 days.

My matured system was heavily-fed and nutrient-heavy and all I can say is that a DSB provided nitrate export without creating a giant glob of macroalgae collecting garbage in my refugium. In fact, my refugium was sparkling clean compared to most. Because I had enormous sand crews, including bristle worms, nassarius snails, conchs, brittle stars, a couple of sand-sifting gobies, plus whatever the live rock brought in, there was never any detritus, and my 120 was 6 1/2 years old when I tore it down. DSBs never once let me down, and the sand bed was every bit as healthy at 6 years, as it was at 6 months IMO.

With the exception of chasing a mantis shrimp that snuck in as a baby on my rocks, I never, ever disturbed my sand bed. When I did disturb it chasing that ****ing mantis around, it released absolutely zero waste into my tank and was as clean-looking on the surface (after cycling) as it was fresh-washed. It was so full of life, it had its own entertainment value and drama; the surface erupted with critters at feeding time. It was cool af.

It's my opinion (take it or not) that failed DSBs are due to impatience or lack of biological completeness. It's extremely important to allow it to become fully established undisturbed and to not vacuum your bed, ever, under any circumstances; a proper DSB cleanup crew does that for you. Vacuuming a DSB draws water through the anaerobic layer deep in the bed and the oxygen kills the anaerobic bacteria, disrupting it for weeks. You may have to experience a few weeks of serious ugly but resist vacuuming diatoms and stuff like that; they're natural and there for a reason. Rely wholly on your crew to take care of sand maintenance.

I think that tanks are more stable and have better overall health with a DSB, but mine's just one opinion. I have no desire for a bare-bottomed tank, ever. I'm setting up a small, 20g to experiment and play with (today!), and you bet it's gonna have a deep sand bed. I think millions of years of evolution trumps everything, but I'm obviously just an old-school old man.

 

[Thespammailaccount]

I'm just returning to the hobby after a very long hiatus, but I had a very happy and very successful 5-year-old 55-gallon and a 6.5-year-old 120-gallon display tank with deep sand beds, from 1987-98 (started saltwater in 1986, after almost 15 years of FW.) The reef world has evolved drastically since then, mostly for good, but I disagree with the move away from deep sand beds.

I'm a huge proponent of keeping as diverse an ecosystem in my tank as possible, including a DSB, live rock, microalgae, and a purposeful fish and coral selection. I'm more conscious of environmental impacts now, so I wouldn't pick up Fiji live rock at the airport, even if that were possible. The cultured live rock they're making in the ocean in Florida looks pretty awesome anyhow. IMO, you won't ever have as successful DSB without quality live rock with lots of critters in it.

My DSBs always had 3-4 inches of oolite with about 2 inches of aragonite on top. I had already been 7 years into saltwater, so I had the patience (and bad memories) to let the 120 tank DSB establish itself with an extended 8-week, 4-stage nitrogen cycle until the bed had a good anaerobic bacteria layer that was converting nitrates to nitrogen gas before I began adding livestock. That's excepting the sand crew, which (excluding live rock hitchhikers) I added at 4 weeks. I've always used lab-grade ammonia to cycle tanks, cruelty-free. That's easier to deal with now that Dr. Tim's is around; I used to have to go to a chemical distributor.

When I started my 120, I had another DSB in my old 55g converted aquarium-turned-sump/refugium (kind of primitive by today's standards and homemade, just one glued-in divider with my skimmer, 2 heaters and a return pump on one side (1/3) and the input and DSB (2/3) on the other) that only had (after nitrate showed) a diverse macroalgae farm of gracilaria, chaeto, several caulerpa types, and dragon's breath in it as pod habitat to feed my future blennies and mandarin, as well as for overall water and tank health. I don't know what the big variety of macroalgae did, only that I wanted whatever it contributed to the ocean to be in my ecosystem too, and my tank looked awesome and was remarkably stable, so I guess it worked. The macroalgae barely grew after the DSB fully cycled, and I rarely clipped it, maybe every two months, indicating that the DSB was doing its thing and exporting converted nitrates as nitrogen gas.

I landscaped the display with calcified macroalgae about 4 weeks into the cycle, and began light kalkwasser dosing, and used live phytoplankton and daily light feedings to encourage pods, critters, and my live rock to establish a very strong ecosystem. By the time I added livestock, pods were everywhere.

After around 8-9 weeks, I added a BTA and a couple of percula to start, then added a coral or fish every week until the tank was populated. I added bacteria for a couple of days every time I added livestock, to negate the added load until the system adjusted, which wasn't long, maybe 3 days.

My matured system was heavily-fed and nutrient-heavy and all I can say is that a DSB provided nitrate export without creating a giant glob of macroalgae collecting garbage in my refugium. In fact, my refugium was sparkling clean compared to most. Because I had enormous sand crews, including bristle worms, nassarius snails, conchs, brittle stars, a couple of sand-sifting gobies, plus whatever the live rock brought in, there was never any detritus, and my 120 was 6 1/2 years old when I tore it down. DSBs never once let me down, and the sand bed was every bit as healthy at 6 years, as it was at 6 months IMO.

With the exception of chasing a mantis shrimp that snuck in as a baby on my rocks, I never, ever disturbed my sand bed. When I did disturb it chasing that ****ing mantis around, it released absolutely zero waste into my tank and was as clean-looking on the surface (after cycling) as it was fresh-washed. It was so full of life, it had its own entertainment value and drama; the surface erupted with critters at feeding time. It was cool af.

It's my opinion (take it or not) that failed DSBs are due to impatience or lack of biological completeness. It's extremely important to allow it to become fully established undisturbed and to not vacuum your bed, ever, under any circumstances; a proper DSB cleanup crew does that for you. Vacuuming a DSB draws water through the anaerobic layer deep in the bed and the oxygen kills the anaerobic bacteria, disrupting it for weeks. You may have to experience a few weeks of serious ugly but resist vacuuming diatoms and stuff like that; they're natural and there for a reason. Rely wholly on your crew to take care of sand maintenance.

I think that tanks are more stable and have better overall health with a DSB, but mine's just one opinion. I have no desire for a bare-bottomed tank, ever. I'm setting up a small, 20g to experiment and play with (today!), and you bet it's gonna have a deep sand bed. I think millions of years of evolution trumps everything, but I'm obviously just an old-school old man.

I am a fairly new reefer but the concept of a BSB just makes sense. It is natural very diverse full of life and has a long and proven track record. I bought a used 30’ deep tank that I want to try a BSB with. I stay away from chemical forms of filtration and right now I am using a large fuge and macro reactor on the 70 gallon with well established pukani that I was lucky enough to to get from the owner of the LFS across the street. Right now I have 200 pounds of dry fiji pukani Tonga and Marshall island rock curing I bought from trusted sources.

please document the set up of your DSB

 

[Thespammailaccount]

The current tank

 

[Thespammailaccount]

Future build