Do fish have immunity?

[mindme]

Define bad decisions? Define misinformation?

More importantly who defines these. I see that you think that you do.

The truth doesn't give two squirrels about what you or I think or advocate, but you seem to think it does. The truth can not be questioned, because it is the truth. People that say they have the truth, for example yourself. They indeed can be questioned. The funny part is people that say they have the truth seem to miss all of the nuiance that the truth holds, and don't really want to be questioned.

Keep proclaiming your absolute correctness for all the world to see.

If you want to learn about immunity you don't have to take my word for it, you can research it for yourself and find the same things out.

 

[HuduVudu]

Hey mods; could use some cleanup in here

Use the report button.

Ich management is very common. I do it myself. It's not a disease that kills that often. You don't need to do a bunch of crazy stuff to do it, and it doesn't mean your fish are immune or anything like that.

Velvet on the other hand can not be managed and will wipe your entire tank if it gets in the system within days. It's a good bit like ich, but has a life cycle of a few days rather than 2+ months. It often starts on the gills, where the fish has no slime coat protection and isn't noticable. Ich can also do that, but doesn't seem to happen as often.

Stress can be a trigger for herpes symptom, also other illness like a cold/flu is common to trigger it. So a good bit like fish in that way as well.

Which is why as I was saying before, I've never seen a single spot on my Naso, but then on my blue tang I see spots about once a month or so. Not a bunch of spots, between 1 and 3 normally. I never see spots on my mimic tang, however I do see him scratching. I do not see my sailfin scratching, but I see the occasional dot about once every 3 months. My sixline wrasse and my cleaner wrasse I see scratch occasionally, but never spots. Same goes for my diamond goby, but he also loves to get cleaned by the shrimp. All my other fish never show any symptoms, which is basically 4 cardinals, a watchman goby and a royal grammar.

Same tank, and every fish has it's own different response to the parasite. Because they are known to have different levels of slime coat. It's not a surprise that the blue tang shows the worst symptoms, it has the thinnest slime coat.

The white dots are not the actual parasite. The white spots is where their body is healing. Fish actually heal really really fast, so they heal up and it looks like the spot has "fallen off". The white dots are basically the end of the cycle.

The way it disappears is what fuels so many misconceptions. You have to understand the lifecycle.

That you lost a bunch of fish to velvet doesn't mean that velvet introduction to a tank is its end. Regardless of what you say.

If you have a way to deal with the problem with velvet then state it. Otherwise you are just wasting everyone's time. If you don't agree with what others say then state your disagreement back it up with your reasoning and then move on. You are changing no minds doing what you are doing.

I am always fascinated that the few threads that people who choose the "natural" way always end with people like you shouting them down. Seems to be a pretty common theme.

 

[HuduVudu]

If you want to learn about immunity you don't have to take my word for it, you can research it for yourself and find the same things out.

Paul took classes from actual researchers. Did you miss that part.

Why that is even better than my internet research on the subject.

Also I am not very interested in immunity, because I have figured out protocols for dealing with Velvet (and other diseases) in my aquarium. I guess if I am bored and have the chance to sit through lectures on it like Paul then I can know more. Otherwise this is all an esoteric waste of time. The proof is in the pudding.

 

[atoll]

Ich management is very common. I do it myself. It's not a disease that kills that often. You don't need to do a bunch of crazy stuff to do it, and it doesn't mean your fish are immune or anything like that.

Velvet on the other hand can not be managed and will wipe your entire tank if it gets in the system within days. It's a good bit like ich, but has a life cycle of a few days rather than 2+ months. It often starts on the gills, where the fish has no slime coat protection and isn't noticable. Ich can also do that, but doesn't seem to happen as often.

Stress can be a trigger for herpes symptom, also other illness like a cold/flu is common to trigger it. So a good bit like fish in that way as well.

Which is why as I was saying before, I've never seen a single spot on my Naso, but then on my blue tang I see spots about once a month or so. Not a bunch of spots, between 1 and 3 normally. I never see spots on my mimic tang, however I do see him scratching. I do not see my sailfin scratching, but I see the occasional dot about once every 3 months. My sixline wrasse and my cleaner wrasse I see scratch occasionally, but never spots. Same goes for my diamond goby, but he also loves to get cleaned by the shrimp. All my other fish never show any symptoms, which is basically 4 cardinals, a watchman goby and a royal grammar.

Same tank, and every fish has it's own different response to the parasite. Because they are known to have different levels of slime coat. It's not a surprise that the blue tang shows the worst symptoms, it has the thinnest slime coat.

The white dots are not the actual parasite. The white spots is where their body is healing. Fish actually heal really really fast, so they heal up and it looks like the spot has "fallen off". The white dots are basically the end of the cycle.

The way it disappears is what fuels so many misconceptions. You have to understand the lifecycle.

You make far to many assumptions based on ignorance of my tank and what I know about the life cycle of white spot. Am still waiting for your answer, my question isn't so far back.
Ignorance is knowing very little about what you are talking about like my tank for instance, how I keep major outbreaks of disease and parasites from happening. I talk from my experience doing what I have done for 30 years. The 10 previous years I was ignorant of how to keep my fish healthy without meds QT etc just like you don't appear to today.

 

[ReefGeezer]

Sorry.... just an observation. Regardless of whether I give a rat's butt or not about @mindme's opinions, as I am reading his posts, I can't help but hear it in the voice and pace of his Avatar. It somehow makes it harder to just disregard what I mostly don't agree with.

 

[mindme]

Use the report button.

That you lost a bunch of fish to velvet doesn't mean that velvet introduction to a tank is its end. Regardless of what you say.

If you have a way to deal with the problem with velvet then state it. Otherwise you are just wasting everyone's time. If you don't agree with what others say then state your disagreement back it up with your reasoning and then move on. You are changing no minds doing what you are doing.

I am always fascinated that the few threads that people who choose the "natural" way always end with people like you shouting them down. Seems to be a pretty common theme.

Yeah, sorry but my experience is not unique. I've never heard of a single tank that is able to get away with velvet management.

As for dealing with it, you can find information all over. But you have to remove all the fish from the tank and leave it fallow for at least 6 weeks(IMO might as well do 72+ days to get ich while at it). Without the fish in your tank, the parasites won't find a host and they will die off in the tank.

At the same time you need to put your fish in a tank with copper for 30 days at the correct levels. The copper will kill the parasites. If you don't have coral/inverts in your tank, you can actually dose the copper directly to your DT and skip the entire QT part.

Then after 6 weeks or 72 days, you can reintroduce your fish back into the tank.

That's if you manage to get them in the copper solution fast enough. Most of the time, they are dead before you realize what's going on. If you do manage to get them out, you can give them a freshwater bath, and that will help kill some of the parasites still on the surface, providing some relief.

And the QT process is really difficult. You have to keep the copper at a certain level, and you have to worry about ammonia build up, which can just cause more stress. The problem with the Naso in the thread you linked I thought was velvet, however it was actually just stress from shipping etc. I did not repeat the mistake the next time, and so I have a happy blonde naso in the tank.

 

[HuduVudu]

I've never heard of a single tank that is able to get away with velvet management.

Ok, now you have.

 

[mindme]

Sorry.... just an observation. Regardless of whether I give a rat's butt or not about @mindme's opinions, as I am reading his posts, I can't help but hear it in the voice and pace of his Avatar. It somehow makes it harder to just disregard what I mostly don't agree with.

Chief Dan is awesome.

 

[mindme]

Ok, now you have.

No, I have not.

 

[mindme]

Paul took classes from actual researchers. Did you miss that part.

Why that is even better than my internet research on the subject.

Also I am not very interested in immunity, because I have figured out protocols for dealing with Velvet (and other diseases) in my aquarium. I guess if I am bored and have the chance to sit through lectures on it like Paul then I can know more. Otherwise this is all an esoteric waste of time. The proof is in the pudding.

If you are practicing velvet management successfully, you should make a thread with that title in the fish disease forum.

I'm sure the entire community would love to know how it's done, and you can be it's savior.

 

[atoll]

[QUOTE="mindme,] The problem with the Naso in the thread you linked I thought was velvet, however it was actually just stress from shipping etc.
[/QUOTE]

Seems your getting more and more confused. I did he didn't.
How do you know it was just stress?are you sure it wasnt the stress that brought something else on that killed your naso or even any meds you might have used? Not at all uncommon. Meds can also bring their own stress adding to shipping stress. Sounds like you never got to the bottom of it so just blamed shipping stress.

 

[HuduVudu]

If you are practicing velvet management successfully, you should make a thread with that title in the fish disease forum.

Why? So people like you can come and tell me I am lying and I am not doing what I am doing. No thanks.

P.S. I did make a thread about disease management at the behest of someone of your leanings. Exactly what I thought would happen, happened.

He isn't active here anymore just like all of the others that have threatend shouted and intimadated me for saying what I do.

You will be like them, gone. Because you aren't serious about this hobby you just want to be right to prove to everyone ... something.

I'm sure the entire community would love to know how it's done, and you can be it's savior.

Been there done that. People don't believe it, because most are new to the hobby, and all they hear are what you have to say because that appeals to them. If someone wants to know they will ask me.

I have worked in a enough fish stores and been on enough fish forums to know better than to tell people something other than what they want to hear.

 

[HuduVudu]

No, I have not.

I have done it.

That is far better information that what you have based your opinion on.

How many people have told you that they have done it and you ignored them. There is a name for that ... sample bias. Crazy part is that you basing actual decisions on actively removing samples.

Your choice.

 

[mindme]

How do you know it was just stress?are you sure it wasnt the stress that brought something else on that killed your naso or even any meds you might have used? Not at all uncommon. Meds can also bring their own stress adding to shipping stress. Sounds like you bever gotbto the bottom of it so just blamed shipping stress.

Because I did further research after the thread. I didn't really get much of an answer in that thread, other than a few who said velvet. I made that thread looking for help to identify the issue. I made it worse by trying to treat it as velvet and stressed it out further.

 

[mindme]

Why? So people like you can come and tell me I am lying and I am not doing what I am doing. No thanks.


Been there done that. People don't believe it, because most are new to the hobby, and all they hear are what you have to say because that appeals to them. If someone wants to know they will ask me.

I have worked in a enough fish stores and been on enough fish forums to know better than to tell people something other than what they want to hear.

Then you're just another person making claims while not providing any proof to back up the claim.

 

[HuduVudu]

Then you're just another person making claims while not providing any proof to back up the claim.

And so are you.

You´re not the keeper of the truth ... no one is.

Opinions are like ... you know the rest.

 

[mindme]

I have done it.

That is far better information that what you have based your opinion on.

How many people have told you that they have done it and you ignored them. There is a name for that ... sample bias. Crazy part is that you basing actual decisions on actively removing samples.

Your choice.

If you provide real information, people will listen.

If you make claims and don't provide basic information to support those claims, people will call it out. That is no doubt what you've experienced.

 

[atoll]

Because I did further research after the thread. I didn't really get much of an answer in that thread, other than a few who said velvet. I made that thread looking for help to identify the issue. I made it worse by trying to treat it as velvet and stressed it out further.

You did research but not on the naso. Until it was deadHmmmm. You also treated your fish even though you hadn't identified the problem so just medicated. Not a wise move at all. Throwing meds at an unknown disease.then researching after it died. I think.you got it all the wrong way round which is surprising seeing you spout so much about diseases and eradication.

 

[mindme]

And so are you.

You´re not the keeper of the truth ... no one is.

Opinions are like ... you know the rest.

Correct, I am not the keeper of truth. What I say are not even my ideas or research. I'm just repeating what is essentially high school level biology and science. Pretty much why I am shocked to even be having this conversation to start with.

 

[atoll]

Late her in the UK am off to bed. Have fun. Am sure there will be lots of reading for me in the morning not that I expect to get an answer to my question off mindme he only wants his own answered.