Dollar dollar bills

[Fish_Sticks]

So question why are hobbiests fragging and tring to make their money back off of their first frag from what is now considered a colony they are taking the fun right out of it I mean come on guys and gals if pieces are so expensive we will not get more people into the hobby I think a lot of folks have forgotten what this hobby is all about I would never pay 1500 for a less than inch frag I don’t care what the name or where it came from it’s just ridiculous us old schoolers used to give away what is now called a colony and it’s what we called a frag just thinking what’s your outlook on this am I missing something?

Reefkeeping has reached a level of knowledge and 'ease-of-getting' into... more and more people are able to have a reef, thanks to the wealth of good reads online, and advancements in equipment.

Some might say running a reef is easy, now.

With that ease in operation, more and more people are looking for coral, thus the prices have gone waaaaay up.

Just wait till restrictions tighten up on wild caught fish and coral - then things are REALLY going to get expensive.

Notice... the first big spike in prices occurred just after LED lighting became available and commonplace a few years ago.

 

[t5Nitro]

You're doing great service daddy-O! In my next tank I'll have more named pieces and plan to sell frags at 10$ what I used to remember buying things for in the hobby.

 

[Daddy-o]

You're doing great service daddy-O! In my next tank I'll have more named pieces and plan to sell frags at 10$ what I used to remember buying things for in the hobby.

Nice! Maybe the weather will be nice when the tank is ready and we could ship you some frags.

 

[EMeyer]

Totally agree with the op. There's always someone who wants to answer "free markets" but that misses the point.

Even in a free market, new cars never sell for $3 and heads of lettuce never sell for $30k. Why? Because appropriate prices aren't just determined by what somebody says, they're determined by the marginal cost of production.

In the opening example, someone buys a frag, grows it for a while, and tries to sell a single frag for what they paid for theirs.

That's not the free market, that's dishonest accounting.

The cost of producing the new frag was a small fraction of the original frag bought [from which multiple new frags will be grown], plus a little for electricity.

If they're honest with their accounting, the cost of producing the new frag must always be less than they paid. You make your money back after multiple frags, not one.

 

[Joedubyk]

Zzzzzz

 

[Conchman]

Market prices, supply and demand. I never buy the new "whatever it is", when it first comes out at an exaggerated price. I have the means andI could have picked up a WD earlier, and paid 200-300, now meh, under 100. At my age you will learn the most important lesson, patience. I did not pay 2000.00 for a new TV, waited for technology to push it under a grand. I will likely pick up a WD now that they are reasonable. There will always be a market for high end corals, TV's whatever, bless them, just not me...

 

[DaneGer21]

There’s always that one guy, “free market”, and to take the cake...a grammar queen.

^^^We get your point, but that’s not the point of the thread.

 

[cshouston]

Totally agree with the op. There's always someone who wants to answer "free markets" but that misses the point.

Even in a free market, new cars never sell for $3 and heads of lettuce never sell for $30k. Why? Because appropriate prices aren't just determined by what somebody says, they're determined by the marginal cost of production.

In the opening example, someone buys a frag, grows it for a while, and tries to sell a single frag for what they paid for theirs.

That's not the free market, that's dishonest accounting.

The cost of producing the new frag was a small fraction of the original frag bought [from which multiple new frags will be grown], plus a little for electricity.

If they're honest with their accounting, the cost of producing the new frag must always be less than they paid. You make your money back after multiple frags, not one.

New cars don’t sell for $3 due to cost of production, but heads of lettuce don’t sell for $30k because nobody would ever pay that much. The perceived value is far lower than that absurd example. If prices were dictated strictly by the marginal cost of production, you’d never see products like Gucci shoes that regularly sell for multiples of even the most expensive down-market sneaker. People are willing to pay more for exclusivity and perceived scarcity. Same goes with coral. It’s why your iPhone costs $999 despite the price of parts and overhead coming in well below that. You think Apple isn’t making huge margins? Why else do you think their stock price is so high? If one could buy equity in coral farmers, I’d sure as hell prefer to invest in one selling high end frags at a premium over the farmer who sells frags for next to nothing “for the hobby” and turns no profit.

Just because you don’t see the value in a luxury good, it doesn’t mean others aren’t willing to pay for it. The whole premise of this thread was “I don’t get why corals are expensive because I don’t want to pay a lot”. It just doesn’t hold water.

 

[cshouston]

There’s always that one guy, “free market”, and to take the cake...a grammar queen.

^^^We get your point, but that’s not the point of the thread.

Ok, pal. It was exactly the point of the thread. Why are corals so expensive? I’m sorry. Was this just a thread for poor/cheap people to whine because they can’t have the frags they want and others pay for?

 

[Perry]

Those who PIF, are in it for the hobby, and will sustain by backing their beauties up in other local tanks. Those looking to profit, and are hoodwinked into paying for a 3 to 4 time, already named coral, are not sustaining the hobby, but trying to create a mini business, thus taking the fun out the hobby. One thing I have learned in 15 years, is that WE ALL have coral losses, sometimes crashes, and general problems. Paying ridiculous prices, for nubs is risky, and puts a ton of pressure on protecting the investment, simply put, the fun turns into churning profit. A PIF mentality can experience a wipe out, but easily get back in. 80% of my corals were given to me from hobbyists I have known for year's, and get it One day, they might call on me, and they will get the love right back.
I have several mini colonies, many that profit seekers would have cut, multiple times, claiming they have a mini colony, no, that's just an old school frag, lol.
Sure, I could make money on a free coral, but would rather not, and watch it grow, into a real colony
Whichever, doesn't matter to me, and wish all hobbyists success regardless.
Cheers

 

[drawman]

That is so sad! If more reefers sold cheap, we could all afford nicer corals. It starts with you.

Those who PIF, are in it for the hobby, and will sustain by backing their beauties up in other local tanks. Those looking to profit, and are hoodwinked into paying for a 3 to 4 time, already named coral, are not sustaining the hobby, but trying to create a mini business, thus taking the fun out the hobby. One thing I have learned in 15 years, is that WE ALL have coral losses, sometimes crashes, and general problems. Paying ridiculous prices, for nubs is risky, and puts a ton of pressure on protecting the investment, simply put, the fun turns into churning profit. A PIF mentality can experience a wipe out, but easily get back in. 80% of my corals were given to me from hobbyists I have known for year's, and get it One day, they might call on me, and they will get the love right back.
I have several mini colonies, many that profit seekers would have cut, multiple times, claiming they have a mini colony, no, that's just an old school frag, lol.
Sure, I could make money on a free coral, but would rather not, and watch it grow, into a real colony
Whichever, doesn't matter to me, and wish all hobbyists success regardless.
Cheers

Love this guys and I plan on doing the same.

 

[Thaxxx]

You're doing great service daddy-O! In my next tank I'll have more named pieces and plan to sell frags at 10$ what I used to remember buying things for in the hobby.

I can see it now......
Not long from now the big trend will be, I wouldn't pay that much for it unless it has Daddy-o lineage.

 

[SliceGolfer]

am I missing something?

Punctuation

 

[EMeyer]

New cars don’t sell for $3 due to cost of production, but heads of lettuce don’t sell for $30k because nobody would ever pay that much.

Now you're agreeing with me but just rephrasing it Yes, we agree, the cost of production determines prices. You just extended this to include an intermediate step -- the cost of production affects consumers' view of what is a reasonable price to pay.

If prices were dictated strictly by the marginal cost of production, you’d never see products like Gucci shoes that regularly sell for multiples of even the most expensive down-market sneaker.

Nobody ever said "dictated strictly by the marginal cost of production", thats pretty extreme.

Its not the only factor, just the most important one. Additional important factors include the maturity and transparency of the market.

Lettuce markets are more mature than coral markets -- lettuce farmers and retailers have been doing it at a huge scale for hundreds of years in this country alone. As a market matures, prices approach the cost of production, and profit margins per unit drop.

Lettuce markers are also more transparent than coral markets. There are large numbers of people communicating honest information about the amounts and types of lettuce available at any point in time, so consumers know what the true price of lettuce is. (There isnt one guy locally selling it for $300 a head, leading buyers to conclude that $300 a head must just be what lettuce costs)

Its almost more transparent in that the information being exchanged is more accurate and honest. You don't have one lettuce seller pretending there is something different and special about his "Ultra Rainbow iceberg lettuce Lineaged to Lettuce Grower 1 Himself!" There is a lot of dishonest or inaccurate information in the sale of corals, which are just an agricultural commodity like lettuce.

Just because you don’t see the value in a luxury good, it doesn’t mean others aren’t willing to pay for it.

No one said this either. Everyone understands there are people willing to pay some really dumb prices for corals (and purses and cars and jeans).

Discussions like this are mainly about "how did it get to this point?" and "why are those people willing to do so?"

 

[X-37B]

Those who PIF, are in it for the hobby, and will sustain by backing their beauties up in other local tanks. Those looking to profit, and are hoodwinked into paying for a 3 to 4 time, already named coral, are not sustaining the hobby, but trying to create a mini business, thus taking the fun out the hobby. One thing I have learned in 15 years, is that WE ALL have coral losses, sometimes crashes, and general problems. Paying ridiculous prices, for nubs is risky, and puts a ton of pressure on protecting the investment, simply put, the fun turns into churning profit. A PIF mentality can experience a wipe out, but easily get back in. 80% of my corals were given to me from hobbyists I have known for year's, and get it One day, they might call on me, and they will get the love right back.
I have several mini colonies, many that profit seekers would have cut, multiple times, claiming they have a mini colony, no, that's just an old school frag, lol.
Sure, I could make money on a free coral, but would rather not, and watch it grow, into a real colony
Whichever, doesn't matter to me, and wish all hobbyists success regardless.
Cheers

I like your mentality.
Wish their were more like you where I live.
I know a few people and have got my best frags from them vs lfs.
I dont have any high end corals, well a WD nub thats the size of a silver dollar now.
Not going to pay high dollar for a 1/4" nub at the lfs.
When it comes to hobbys its pay to play just like any other one.
Get what you can afford and be happy.

 

[cshouston]

Now you're agreeing with me but just rephrasing it Yes, we agree, the cost of production determines prices. You just extended this to include an intermediate step -- the cost of production affects consumers' view of what is a reasonable price to pay.

Nobody ever said "dictated strictly by the marginal cost of production", thats pretty extreme.

Its not the only factor, just the most important one. Additional important factors include the maturity and transparency of the market.

Lettuce markets are more mature than coral markets -- lettuce farmers and retailers have been doing it at a huge scale for hundreds of years in this country alone. As a market matures, prices approach the cost of production, and profit margins per unit drop.

Lettuce markers are also more transparent than coral markets. There are large numbers of people communicating honest information about the amounts and types of lettuce available at any point in time, so consumers know what the true price of lettuce is. (There isnt one guy locally selling it for $300 a head, leading buyers to conclude that $300 a head must just be what lettuce costs)

Its almost more transparent in that the information being exchanged is more accurate and honest. You don't have one lettuce seller pretending there is something different and special about his "Ultra Rainbow iceberg lettuce Lineaged to Lettuce Grower 1 Himself!" There is a lot of dishonest or inaccurate information in the sale of corals, which are just an agricultural commodity like lettuce.

No one said this either. Everyone understands there are people willing to pay some really dumb prices for corals (and purses and cars and jeans).

Discussions like this are mainly about "how did it get to this point?" and "why are those people willing to do so?"

I see your point, and I don’t think we’re in disagreement on those facts. However, a relatively small hobby such as this doesn’t really lend itself to comparisons with massive agriculture operations. Scarcity and perception of value are going to have a large effect. A head of lettuce is a head of lettuce is a head of lettuce. The same cannot be said for different species and morphs of coral.

OP came across as just whining that prices are too high and they don’t want to pay it. It still doesn’t change the fact that others will, and are, paying it. If nobody did, the prices would drop due to surplus and lack of demand.

 

[Daddy-o]

I can see it now......
Not long from now the big trend will be, I wouldn't pay that much for it unless it has Daddy-o lineage.

My son would love that! With all the tanks we have, he would be sitting on a small fortune.

 

[cshouston]

Get what you can afford and be happy.

THIS. Thread over.

 

[t5Nitro]

It's true for the vast majority of instances in this hobby you need to grab what you can afford and be satisfied. It's also true that not 100% of the people in the hobby are snakes. Keep an eye out, you might find yourself a nice gem.

 

[SebastianReefer]

Totally agree with the op. There's always someone who wants to answer "free markets" but that misses the point.

Even in a free market, new cars never sell for $3 and heads of lettuce never sell for $30k. Why? Because appropriate prices aren't just determined by what somebody says, they're determined by the marginal cost of production.

In the opening example, someone buys a frag, grows it for a while, and tries to sell a single frag for what they paid for theirs.

That's not the free market, that's dishonest accounting.

The cost of producing the new frag was a small fraction of the original frag bought [from which multiple new frags will be grown], plus a little for electricity.

If they're honest with their accounting, the cost of producing the new frag must always be less than they paid. You make your money back after multiple frags, not one.

Bam that’s exactly my point when if one was thinking like a business man you cut back the price and sell hundreds more frag which equals more customers that come back for more coral instead of selling one or two outrageous frags