Dry Rock Display - Live Rock Sump

[alton]

I have ordered 50 to 60 lbs of liverock from KP three times. Only once I received a Mantis. He was actually pretty cool with him busting rocks. But I got worried so I got him in a couple nights with a bottle trap. I have received pistols but I have never lost anything by having them. I have also ordered their dry rock for $2 a lb delivered and will be mixing that and the latest liverock in the near future in my 310.

 

[eschaton]

This is a bit of an aside, but I think people tend to be just a bit too focused on coralline growth these days.

Don't get me wrong - coralline is a good thing. It's a sign of a healthy, mature tank which has gone through the algae cycles, and rock surfaces covered with coralline are way less likely to be colonized by something like green hair algae.

Still, you really don't want 100% of your rockwork covered in coralline. I say this because it means that all of the micro-pores in your rock get covered over, which reduces the area colonizable by bacteria. In addition, coralline engages in chemical warfare just like most sessile reef organisms - and there are undoubtedly some useful aspects of reef biodiversity which need "naked" rock to colonize in order to get established. Even the "nuisance algae" which tends to grow more on bare rocks has its place, because a lot of things we would like to thrive in tanks (like pods) can eat some nuisance algae, but can't really eat coraline.

 

[tmnails]

I agree with the emphasis on coralline, and I'm guilty of that myself sometimes. It's a great look. But overall if my rock looked like that rock from Alton, I would be thrilled. Hopefully my dry rock will eventually turn into that if I seed it with KP rock.

 

[CuzzA]

Here's a pretty cool piece of TBS rock. Actually the rock is about the size of a small orange which has a bivalve the size of a lemon to the left. A nice oculina robust up top, a small piece of some really fluorescent red sessil invertebrate that I have no idea what it is and a red tunicate to the right. Pretty cool stuff.

 

[tmnails]

Here's a pretty cool piece of TBS rock. Actually the rock is about the size of a small orange which has a bivalve the size of a lemon to the left. A nice oculina robust up top, a small piece of some really fluorescent red sessil invertebrate that I have no idea what it is and a red tunicate to the right. Pretty cool stuff.

That's just it.

You don't get that stuff from a bottle. But I wonder how much of it would pass and spread to the display without direct live rock to dry rock contact...

 

[Jon Fishman]

not only easier, but more of a chance to make things look more real using cement to hold things in place.

too many aquariums I see, just look like a pile of rocks.

I like my pile of rocks

 

[eschaton]

That's just it.

You don't get that stuff from a bottle. But I wonder how much of it would pass and spread to the display without direct live rock to dry rock contact...

It all depends upon the species.

My general experience is the following things spread freely from my display tank to my sump and HOB fuge: Pods, stomatella snails, brittle stars, pineapple sponges, spirorbid featherdusters, vermetid snails, asterina stars, and bristleworms. You have them one place, you'll have them everywhere.

A lot of other stuff does not spread like that however. Basically only things which are either really small to begin with or have viable planktonic larvae do that - if they can survive your return pump. Anything that reproduces in tanks asexually through fission will just stay down in your sump forever.

 

[tmnails]

It all depends upon the species.

My general experience is the following things spread freely from my display tank to my sump and HOB fuge: Pods, stomatella snails, brittle stars, pineapple sponges, spirorbid featherdusters, vermetid snails, asterina stars, and bristleworms. You have them one place, you'll have them everywhere.

A lot of other stuff does not spread like that however. Basically only things which are either really small to begin with or have viable planktonic larvae do that - if they can survive your return pump. Anything that reproduces in tanks asexually through fission will just stay down in your sump forever.

Bristle worms will get up there? Ugh. It's not the end of the world but I was hoping to avoid those in particular...

I'll probably try that high salinity dip before I put the rock in my sump if that's the case...

 

[eschaton]

Bristle worms will get up there? Ugh. It's not the end of the world but I was hoping to avoid those in particular...

I'll probably try that high salinity dip before I put the rock in my sump if that's the case...

Why? Bristleworms are great tank janitors, and breed well. Perfect member of the CUC.

 

[tmnails]

Why? Bristleworms are great tank janitors, and breed well. Perfect member of the CUC.

I was under the impression that bristle worms and fire worms were basically the same thing. About two minutes of research tells me I was wrong lol.

Do fire worms reproduce as readily as bristle worms? Would they make it to the display from the sump?

Fire worms are definitely the ones that stuck my hand full of needles in the past, not bristles.

 

[eschaton]

I was under the impression that bristle worms and fire worms were basically the same thing. About two minutes of research tells me I was wrong lol.

Do fire worms reproduce as readily as bristle worms? Would they make it to the display from the sump?

Fire worms are definitely the ones that stuck my hand full of needles in the past, not bristles.

Fireworms are pretty closely related to bristleworms, so I presume they breed well in tanks and can spread. They tend to be a bit bigger though, thus they'd have a harder time surviving return pump impellers.

Fireworms are only found in the Atlantic, which meant they were rare during the indo-pacific LR days. I'd think they were becoming more common again with Florida rock like TBS being common in the hobby, but I haven't really heard about them being common TBS hitchhikers.

 

[LondonJon]

I like my pile of rocks

well, that’s the most important thing

 

[tmnails]

Regarding organisms that can transfer through a return pump from a sump to the display (without intensive filtration at least), we have something of a list with one of eschaton's comments as well as some others.

The good:
Coralline
Pods, various
Stomatella snails
Brittle stars
Bristle worms

The neutral:
Pineapple sponges
Spirorbid worms/featherdusters
Asterina stars

The bad:
Vermetid snails
Aiptasia


This is a pretty good list. If there are any others, I can add them.

 

[Dragonreef202]

I started with dry rock and a few pieces of live rock to seed the tank and just waited for the coraline algae to spread over time. I also used dry rock because of the price for it. The live rock was a bit more to purchase.

 

[Admann]

Following along.

I started my tank in May (7 months back) with all dry rock. I consider it a test of patience! If I was starting over, I’d heavily consider TBS Live Rock in the main display. I’m curious to hear more about the impact of adding live rock to just the sump.

Me too, I am starting with dryrock DT and live rock and sand for the fuge from the LFS or someone like TBS.

 

[tmnails]

One benefit of this method is the ability to isolate stone and gorilla crabs, and mantis shrimp, to the sump. It seems obvious that they (nor their juveniles) would have a way to get past a simple filter sponge, let alone the return pump. And so far, everyone seems to concur. So that's an additional point gained for live rock.

And for TBS and KP aquatics rock in particular (or anything from the gulf of Mexico), there is no chance for that most invasive strain of aiptasia.

For many OCD reefers, those were the big reasons to stay away from live rock. Personally, 0% chance for a mantis in my display makes me WAY more relaxed.

 

[hans4811]

I started my tank with dry rock in the displays and then I added live rock to my refugium and live sand(actual live sand from the ocean) to one of my displays to mix in with the dry sand. I effectivly seeded my entire system with lots of micro fauna so this system does work. It will also keep larger unwanted hitchhikers like gorilla crabs isolated.

Glad I came upon this post ! Have been researching LR myself for my upcoming Reefer 250 build..my first !

Can you use that in a tank? ... live sand from the ocean ? I live 2 blocks from the Atlantic, I'm in Fla, and never considered just going to the beach and getting some sand there !

Figured the short distance from either KP or TBS, it would be a quick ship to my house in Jacksonville...like 4 hrs.

Love this discussion, as I too feel that putting something as bio-diverse as LR just feels more natural to me. I may be naive being a beginner, but willing to try.

 

[tmnails]

Love this discussion, as I too feel that putting something as bio-diverse as LR just feels more natural to me. I may be naive being a beginner, but willing to try.

You're definitely not naive.

I've only ever done LR starts.

I had one horrible experience and considered a dry start for my new upcoming 180 reef, but after researching and the comments in this thread so far, I'm leaning towards a full dry display with KP aquatics live rock in my sump to start. A couple items that tipped the scales for me:

1.) KP aquatics and TBS live rock are of infinitely better quality that the past live rock I've used - that being aiptasia ridden, mostly white, algae covered "live" rock from a local fish store.

2.) The nuisance critter from my past debacle (mantis shrimp), along with gorilla and stone crabs, can be isolated in the sump while the live rock still effectively seeds the dry rock display. If a time comes where am firmly convinced that my live rock is free of these guys, I have the option to move it into the display later. Perhaps then, anything beneficial to that was formerly unable to seed up to the display will be able to transfer.

3.) Many reefers have started both ways - full live start vs full dry start. Obviously there will always be differing schools of thought, but many who have commented thus far say that, all things considered, they like live rock starts better. Lots of great comments here so far, explaining why they feel that way.

 

[AlexG]

Glad I came upon this post ! Have been researching LR myself for my upcoming Reefer 250 build..my first !

Can you use that in a tank? ... live sand from the ocean ? I live 2 blocks from the Atlantic, I'm in Fla, and never considered just going to the beach and getting some sand there !

Figured the short distance from either KP or TBS, it would be a quick ship to my house in Jacksonville...like 4 hrs.

Love this discussion, as I too feel that putting something as bio-diverse as LR just feels more natural to me. I may be naive being a beginner, but willing to try.

I would not get sand off the beach and you would likely need a permit for lawful collection. The live sand/live rock suppliers collect offshore and dive to get it from their designated areas. Since you are in FL you might want to call them up and see if you can do a pickup to save you some money on shipping.

 

[hans4811]

You're definitely not naive.

I've only ever done LR starts.

I had one horrible experience and considered a dry start for my new upcoming 180 reef, but after researching and the comments in this thread so far, I'm leaning towards a full dry display with KP aquatics live rock in my sump to start. A couple items that tipped the scales for me:

1.) KP aquatics and TBS live rock are of infinitely better quality that the past live rock I've used - that being aiptasia ridden, mostly white, algae covered "live" rock from a local fish store.

2.) The nuisance critter from my past debacle (mantis shrimp), along with gorilla and stone crabs, can be isolated in the sump while the live rock still effectively seeds the dry rock display. If a time comes where am firmly convinced that my live rock is free of these guys, I have the option to move it into the display later. Perhaps then, anything beneficial to that was formerly unable to seed up to the display will be able to transfer.

3.) Many reefers have started both ways - full live start vs full dry start. Obviously there will always be differing schools of thought, but many who have commented thus far say that, all things considered, they like live rock starts better. Lots of great comments here so far, explaining why they feel that way.

Just a note from KP in their description of their LR..(could just be a sales pitch, but....)

"Compared to most other live rock harvested in the Gulf of Mexico, our live rock is 100 % Aptasia free. This live rock for sale is completely different from Gulf of Mexico rock as far as the biodiversity goes "