Eco live rock vs. natural live rock

[Bensadork]

I am very interested in this thread. I purchased all of my live rock from a local semi-chain pet shop. It was identified as Fiji live rock. This is, of course, before i discovered all of the much better saltwater specialists in my area. Anyway, all of my live rock was teeming with life. I had probably a thousand different animals in my tank before i ever bought my CUC or first fish. Does this mean that my rock was dead at one point in its journey to my home and somewhere (perhaps in their curing tank at the store) it picked up thousands of pods, stomatella snails, and asterina starfish. I also have a couple of nice sized bristleworms and a ton of brittle starfish. I also have a feather duster that is growing larger every day. All of this came with the rock. Did I luck out and get a good shipment of real live rock? I know they get new shipments of rock every week and i can't imagine that if it was dead rock that it would be able to acquire that much life in the short time it spends in the curing tank at the shop. That leads me to my next question. Another shop down the road also has a huge tub of live rock they sell for a nice price. This same shop also has some different looking rock within their display area that they call "Aquacultured". To me, this aquacultured stuff looks like dry rock that someone took some purple paint and went all picasso on the rocks. In other words, it does not look natural but costs a little more than the regular rocks in the tub. Do they apply some special bacteria to the rock with a brush? Call me dumb, but I am not familiar enough with the hobby to know all of the ins and outs like a lot of other people here and I continue to ask myself why would someone want to pay more for rocks that don't look as good as the regular old natural live rock in the big tubs?

 

[LILBUDDHA]

I am very interested in this thread. I purchased all of my live rock from a local semi-chain pet shop. It was identified as Fiji live rock. This is, of course, before i discovered all of the much better saltwater specialists in my area. Anyway, all of my live rock was teeming with life. I had probably a thousand different animals in my tank before i ever bought my CUC or first fish. Does this mean that my rock was dead at one point in its journey to my home and somewhere (perhaps in their curing tank at the store) it picked up thousands of pods, stomatella snails, and asterina starfish. I also have a couple of nice sized bristleworms and a ton of brittle starfish. I also have a feather duster that is growing larger every day. All of this came with the rock. Did I luck out and get a good shipment of real live rock? I know they get new shipments of rock every week and i can't imagine that if it was dead rock that it would be able to acquire that much life in the short time it spends in the curing tank at the shop. That leads me to my next question. Another shop down the road also has a huge tub of live rock they sell for a nice price. This same shop also has some different looking rock within their display area that they call "Aquacultured". To me, this aquacultured stuff looks like dry rock that someone took some purple paint and went all picasso on the rocks. In other words, it does not look natural but costs a little more than the regular rocks in the tub. Do they apply some special bacteria to the rock with a brush? Call me dumb, but I am not familiar enough with the hobby to know all of the ins and outs like a lot of other people here and I continue to ask myself why would someone want to pay more for rocks that don't look as good as the regular old natural live rock in the big tubs?

That is what some of us refer to as die back . The rock still has some life and what seeds of life were left are born . The rock loses what color is left too. There is also the possibility that some of the Fiji rock you bought may have been mixed with some rock from tank breakdown's and thrown into that pool or vat . The different looking rock is the eco friendly rock aka "real reef rock ".
It does cost more .I also concur I do not understand the bacteria in the rock either or stuff sold in bottles for that matter. LOL

 

[shornik]

The only way to get truly live rock is if it's pulled out of the ocean in water, transferred to holding in water, and shipped to you in water via air freight same day.
There are very few places that do this and it's key to the survival of everything that makes it "live".
And it's worth every penny.

I was web surfing and found KP Aquatics in the Florida Keys. They have live rock and will air freight it to you. If you live in Florida you could pick it up from them I believe. For my next tank I think I'm going to definitely go the LR route and enjoy whatever critters come aboard. http://www.kpaquatics.com/product-category/live-rock-dry-rock/

 

[d2mini]

I was web surfing and found KP Aquatics in the Florida Keys. They have live rock and will air freight it to you. If you live in Florida you could pick it up from them I believe. For my next tank I think I'm going to definitely go the LR route and enjoy whatever critters come aboard. http://www.kpaquatics.com/product-category/live-rock-dry-rock/

Yep.
My only experience has been with Tampa Bay Saltwater. Have used them for several tank builds and wouldn't set up a tank any other way.
I haven't used KP although it looks similar.

 

[Walt Smith]

Hi all,

First time in. I think LILBUDDAH is absolutely right on most points but he is also unaware of the whole truth so I would to help set the record straight. After all, I should know the facts in this matter and will be bluntly honest with you.

To say that ALL Fiji rock is dead because it is all boat rock is about 90% accurate. Many years ago, around 2002 – 2003 if I recall correctly, some of my customers started asking me to experiment by shipping the live rock by means of sea freight. I fought this request off firmly for about a year and then I finally gave in to one customer who ordered 600 boxes and wanted to save the air freight cost and send by boat. After doing some research I told him that the only way I would consider this is to ship the rock in a refrigerated container at 55 degrees (to delay decay) and he agreed. I was in Los Angeles when that container arrived and although it was nowhere near the pristine appearance of air freighted rock his customers did not seem to mind because of the cheaper price he offered. That was the day I shot myself in the foot because I was sure he would hate it and the issue would be over. That was also the day that beautiful deep red coralline covered Fiji live rock took a huge dump in quality. Was I to blame? Probably!

But, since Fiji is so small and there were 3 other shippers of live rock the word soon spread and almost immediately everyone was shipping their rock by boat and there was nothing I could do to convince them to just say NO to their customers and keep the famous Fiji Live Rock the top quality rock in the industry that it has been since 1995. I really resisted this move but my hands were tied because suddenly no wholesaler would pay all that extra for air freight. They were now selling the rock for less than what the air freight alone cost.

I even did mention this in my talk at the last MACNA that you can see on you tube. I tell everybody that if you have been in the hobby for less than 10 years then you probably don’t have any idea what real live rock looks like and I a show a picture of fresh live rock and you can hear the audience gasp.

However, all is not lost. This is where LILBUDDAH is missing some info. It was the hobby that drove the price and demand and it is only the hobby that can change it. Along with boat rock I also market a product called “Fiji Ultra.” This rock comes in a gold letter box and has a “certified stamp” on it stating that this rock is “air freight” rock and believe it or not there are several customers that buy this rock still, albeit it is just a small percent of what I ship.

If you guys all talked to your store and told them you would be willing to pay a higher price for air freight rock they would then need to order special from their wholesaler who would pass the order on to me. But be careful that they actually get the air freight rock because there are some unscrupulous dealers out there who will be glad to take the extra buck or are already convincing their stores that the rock is air freight when it’s not. The store could believe them if they have never seen the real thing to compare.

There are many other issues and suggestions I could make on this subject but I thought I would leave it bare bones for this post and help you understand the issues surrounding your live rock.

Walt Smith

 

[scchase]

I have several boxes of several different brands of eco rocks and so far I cannot say I am impressed with any of them. At least from what I have seen at best its painted purple rock which does nothing but close up all the pores in the rock where all the goodies live. So for me and my future huge build (1200g) it will be a pallet of marco type rock and then several boxes of the real stuff to seed it all.

 

[Cleo642]

I just looked at TFP and that's all boat aka "half/dead rock ".

I know but it's really to find truly live rock now. There is either half dead rock or the manmade cement rock. The manmade eco stuff is more expensive too. I will look at the places people have told me about when the time comes.

 

[Cleo642]

I have several boxes of several different brands of eco rocks and so far I cannot say I am impressed with any of them. At least from what I have seen at best its painted purple rock which does nothing but close up all the pores in the rock where all the goodies live. So for me and my future huge build (1200g) it will be a pallet of marco type rock and then several boxes of the real stuff to seed it all.

Wow, 1200 gallons! That'll be amazing.

 

[pache11]

Tampa Bay Saltwater has live rock. Mined and then placed in gulf till it matures and then harvested and sent live. Richard is a great owner and you will always receive more then what you ordered.

 

[gooch Verified Sponsor]

I would love to see what a few thousand pounds of my ceramic rock would look like after a year in fiji waters. It could be Epic. I would be willing to bet 40 pounds of ceramic rock would be about the same amount as 60-80 pounds of concrete based artificial rock. Unfortunately it is not very cost effective to make it here and ship it there. Maybe Walt should fly me in to Fiji and I could train the locals how to sculpt and make ceramic rock in mass amounts. Honestly the added cost might be a savings in the end and we could teach the locals another viable trade and further reduce the harvesting of rock from the oceans reefs. Could be a game changer. I entertained the idea of making bulk rock and even have enough here to do a nice tank set up and you would never know it was ceramic. My shop is too small to do bulk rock so I shelved the idea. I could never make it and be competitive. My kiln space is too valuable. I have my niche but I really feel a big operation could do it and it would be profitable and preferred over concrete based rock even at a larger price point. My LFS uses a lot of my products and they get a lot of my scraps. They throw them in the store tanks and live rock vat from time to time. the ceramic rock is chosen over the other rocks more times than you would expect. The guys actually have to tell the customers that the pieces are ceramic and not live rock. So at times I guess I can say people choose my scraps over live rock when given a choice.

I think artificial rock has come a long way in a short time, Real Reef rock is pretty nice looking, I have seen other nice artificial rock as well. But my company and my life has always followed one simple saying "there has got to be a better way". We are close but yet still very far away. Of course I am sure many will disagree with me on that point.

 

[debby]

if I was starting from scratch I'd use the dry, white rock harvested from places like Florida and let it become live. i've had my fill of hitchhikers - latest is one polyclad flatworm that i saw and siphoned out, but you know....where there any, there must be many......

other hitchhikers i've had include nasty crabs (2), colonial hydroids and nudibranchs. UGH.

 

[d2mini]

I would love to see what a few thousand pounds of my ceramic rock would look like after a year in fiji waters. It could be Epic. I would be willing to bet 40 pounds of ceramic rock would be about the same amount as 60-80 pounds of concrete based artificial rock. Unfortunately it is not very cost effective to make it here and ship it there.

It's nothing like what it would like like off the coast of Tampa!
Walt's now shipping rock to Tampa Bay Saltwater. Check out the other thread to see what it looks like after just two months.

 

[miller175]

I like my live rock

 

[gooch Verified Sponsor]

It's nothing like what it would like like off the coast of Tampa!
Walt's now shipping rock to Tampa Bay Saltwater. Check out the other thread to see what it looks like after just two months.

I have gotten Tampa Bay rock Gulf View Rock, Fiji Rock and just about every kind of rock known to the hobby. I have nothing against any of that but in my opinion The Tampa and Gulf view rock is more for the beginner that is amazed by all the little critters and sponges. Thing is most of that stuff dies off pretty quickly. We just keep our tanks too warm and most of it starves out in our tanks. So you are purchasing things for the life on it that is only there for a short time. Not getting into it or arguing it but for most seasoned reefers all those things just are not as important and the novelty wears off. We want surface area to grow coral. My thing is if the ceramic rock is half the weight and can be made in Fiji then seeded in Fiji it is probably a little more cost effective to ship it a faster method to preserve the life that is similar to the environmental temperature and parameters that we keep our corals at. It is kind of like taking a fat guy like me from the north and moving him to Miami in july. I would melt. Well same thing with critters that have a natural environmental temp at 74 degrees and then they move to a constant 81 degrees. Then going from the pizza hut buffet to only eating Kale. Most of them do not stand a chance. Also clay is much much easier to form and shape than concrete and aragonite mixtures giving more variety and less boulder shaped rock. If you like the shapes of those rocks great, but if you can get something better for the same price wouldn't you? There is a reason so many tanks are aesthetically challenged when it comes to aqua-scaping and look like a bunch of rock dropped in a tank. Because after all that amazing life dies off that is just what it is. It is hard to make caves and shelves with concrete versus clay. And sorry but I do not see guys chiseling caves into mined rock and some of the shelves I see are just flat saw cuts that just do not look very natural to me. Ceramic rocks can be made thinner with definition you just can not get with aragonite or mined rock. Yes you will pay more for it but a six pound ceramic shelf is huge in comparison to a six pound aragonite shelf. You have more surface area per pound of ceramic versus just about any other material out there. Like I said in my many years in this hobby I have probably gone through more live rock than 95% of the hobbyists currently in this hobby. If I did a tank for a newbie we used gulf rock, if it was for someone that has had tanks or a business we used Fiji or Tonga. But it has been many years since since I had a tank with live rock in it. I have three tanks going right now, couple still cycling. Not one pound of live rock is in any of the tanks. One only has ceramic frag plugs and a couple new structures. Many of our customers are 100% ceramic. Also take a dry piece of ceramic rock and a dry piece of aragonite rock and put them both in the tank at the same time. It takes a long time for all the air to bubble out of the ceramic rock, it just has a lot of porosity. How long does the concrete take to bubble out? Does it even bubble?

For what it is worth if I was a beginner I would be going gaga over all the life. I remember counting bugs on the glass. So there is definitely a place for it in this hobby. But can anyone honestly tell me after two or three years they still have all those same critters living in their systems or even care if they have some of those critters anymore. No, the focus shifts to corals and fish and mechanical filtration does a good portion of the filtering.


Again please I am not trying to discredit or disrespect any products and applaud all the efforts toward sustainable and artificial materials used to reduce environmental impacts on our worlds oceans. I just want people to keep an open mind and realize there just may be a better ALTERNATIVE out there they have not tried yet. I mean seriously millions of corals have been grown out on ceramic plugs over the years. Can all those corals be wrong? Just asking these guys to keep an open mind is all. For all I know they did try the ceramic rock and it crashed and burned for them or just wasn't cost effective. I really don't know. But it sure seems more and more hobbyists are making the switch to ceramic, maybe there is something to it? Someday, they may thank me.

 

[Cleo642]

if I was starting from scratch I'd use the dry, white rock harvested from places like Florida and let it become live. i've had my fill of hitchhikers - latest is one polyclad flatworm that i saw and siphoned out, but you know....where there any, there must be many......

other hitchhikers i've had include nasty crabs (2), colonial hydroids and nudibranchs. UGH.

Nasty crabs?

 

[d2mini]

@gooch, No disrespect but although I agree with some of your points I have to disagree with some other. I'll try to explain.

1. The life dying off. Yes, over time you will see these tunicates and sponges dissipate. But wanting rock with all this life has nothing to do with newbies. A) when setting up a new tank with it, there is barely any cycle and the tank can support fish and coral no problem. B) when setting up a new tank, you've got some awesome stuff to look at for a while until you slowly get coral and it grows out. In any case, you have an instant reef. Like you said, as time goes on the focus switches to your fish and coral. But I firmly believe that starting with live rock like this builds a really strong foundation that you just won't get by starting with dry rock.

2. I think you may have missed my point in my previous post. I was saying your ceramic rock might actually get more populated in Tampa than Fiji. This is why Walt hooked up with TBS. the growth they are getting on Walts rock in Tampa is absolutely insane.

3. Walts rock is an alternative material too. Not ceramic but it's not mined rock.

So no one is dissing your rock or any other alternative.

One question about ceramic rock while we are on the subject... You can add surface texture but what about the interior/porosity? What you see growing on the outside is just a small part of what make this live rock so great at biological filtration. All the microscopic critters and surface area within the rock is huge and I think some people forget this. How is this obtained with the ceramic?

I'm a seasoned reefer. Been in the hobby for years and have set up tanks all ways and just won't use anything other than aquaculture so rock any more. Doesn't really matter to me what it's made of as long as it performs the same way.

 

[Walt Smith]

Hi Again,
d2mini, there is one point that you make that must originate from assumption. Although Richard at Tampa Bay is doing an amazing job with our ReefRock2.1 and turning it into what will soon be the best live rock the industry has seen in many years it is not necessarily about the Gulf critters it will attract and how fast it grows. We are getting the same results in Fiji with amazing coralline coverage in just 3 - 4 months and even coral settlements. Where the magic is in the relationship between TBS and WSI is the location.
As I pointed out in my earlier post it would do no good the grow this amazing rock here ion Fiji (even though we have over 100,000 Kgs (that's 220,000 Lbs +) in the water now) and then ship it by boat. In fact, that would be a sin.
when Richard contacted me about sending his some of my Pukani rock for grow out I also suggested that he try my handmade Reef Rock. he just reported to me that is had amazingly fast grow time and was very excited.
this is a big win for the hobby because I can ship containers by sea of that product right off the production line to Richard really cost effectively and he can grow it in the gulf bring the best rock to you for cheaper than I can from Fiji using domestic air freight rather that expensive international freight cost.
This is what I call a win/win/win ..... TBS/WSI/YOU
we were going to announce this ummm marriage pretty soon but it looks like the cat is out of the bag already.
"Made in Fiji - Grown in the USA"
I am very excited about this partnership and looking forward to your comments about this rock when it finally starts hitting the market.
good reefing to you all. hope to see you at MACNA
We are giving another Fiji trip away this year.
Walt

 

[Cleo642]

Hi Again,
d2mini, there is one point that you make that must originate from assumption. Although Richard at Tampa Bay is doing an amazing job with our ReefRock2.1 and turning it into what will soon be the best live rock the industry has seen in many years it is not necessarily about the Gulf critters it will attract and how fast it grows. We are getting the same results in Fiji with amazing coralline coverage in just 3 - 4 months and even coral settlements. Where the magic is in the relationship between TBS and WSI is the location.
As I pointed out in my earlier post it would do no good the grow this amazing rock here ion Fiji (even though we have over 100,000 Kgs (that's 220,000 Lbs +) in the water now) and then ship it by boat. In fact, that would be a sin.
when Richard contacted me about sending his some of my Pukani rock for grow out I also suggested that he try my handmade Reef Rock. he just reported to me that is had amazingly fast grow time and was very excited.
this is a big win for the hobby because I can ship containers by sea of that product right off the production line to Richard really cost effectively and he can grow it in the gulf bring the best rock to you for cheaper than I can from Fiji using domestic air freight rather that expensive international freight cost.
This is what I call a win/win/win ..... TBS/WSI/YOU
we were going to announce this ummm marriage pretty soon but it looks like the cat is out of the bag already.
"Made in Fiji - Grown in the USA"
I am very excited about this partnership and looking forward to your comments about this rock when it finally starts hitting the market.
good reefing to you all. hope to see you at MACNA
We are giving another Fiji trip away this year.
Walt

Excuse me if I am wrong, but are with Dr. Foster and Smith?

 

[d2mini]

Sorry @Walt Smith! My bad! Thought I read that somewhere. Thanks for the correction.

 

[gooch Verified Sponsor]

I didn't think you were disrespecting me or anything we make. I know WSI rock is not mined but it is heavy. At least the stuff I handled was. Pounds is pounds and it adds up when freight is involved. I truly believe after more than ten years working with ceramic rock it has for more porosity and surface area than most of the alternatives. It bubbles like aka seltzer when put into a tank because it has so much porosity it takes a long time for all the air to escape. All that porosity increases the internal and external ability for bacteria to colonize. You use concrete to build dams and to inhibit water. I doubt a solid chunk of aragonite or quarry rock has the same amount of porosity or will have enough water pass through it as no matter how hard we try we will never truly replicate how much water passes over a reef in our glass boxes. And when all those critters die in that rock it becomes a nutrient liability because you are dependent on those animals to live and work in the rock. When they are gone nutrients build up until they begin to leach out. There is not a spot on the ceramic rock that isn't porous but if you do not have the critters working the rock it too will end up that way in time. So culture the rock where you harvest your corals and fish if you have to have live rock. They may have a longer life cycle due to the pristine conditions we offer our fish and corals that closer resemble the ocean environment from which they came.

With ceramic rock there is no die off, yes it needs to be seeded. But I have added fish and coral a lot sooner using ceramic rock than I ever felt comfortable with live rock. My little nano had fish and coral within a week. Now I do not recommend that but as a manufacturer I do things a little different and push it a little more to put my products to the test. My nano has too many fish and no skimmer, just a canister filter running gfo inside it. Sustainable Aquatics clowns breeding in it after only a few months in the tank. But it is a test tank and if I didn't think it could handle it I wouldn't do it. Personally I am not going to buy anything I know is just going to die in my tank even if it is pretty to look at. I guess the older I get the softer I get. If you are setting up a caribbean biotype by all means the gulf rock is your best option. But most of us set up tropical fish tanks.


This is 90 pounds of dry ceramic rock I made a few years ago. I did not spend more than five minutes placing it in the tank and it looks like it. If you give me a few hours and a little epo putty I would make this tank look full, I just do not have that kind of time right now. Now I do not and will not make this kind of rock for customers. As I stated it isn't cost effective for my small operation. But a large scale operation I truly believe it is much better and worth looking into. I probably made 200 pounds of it and to be honest I quickly realized it just wasn't a product I was going to invest in so I just stopped. The stuff pictured below is not sellable, it is junk that is just laying around my shop that I just never tossed out(I have a problem with that). But I could fill this with water, seed it with bacteria and be farther along in six months than a tank with liverock. I am not going to waste a 150 gallon tank on something I have no intention of bringing to market but I know it will work. I've done it. But just imagine what could be made with just a little training and experience.







Nine pounds is enough to design most nano tanks.



In Walt's post I believe he said most of the die off was because of shipping it by boat. The live rock from Fiji is incredible and has tons of life as well but does not survive the boat trip. Without putting words in his mouth is this why he ships the rock to Florida? To offer a product with more life? If he can do the same thing in Fiji would this not be more beneficial to WSI as well as our aquarium inhabitants? My only suggestion through all of this is if you can cut the weight of the rock in half by making it out of ceramic would it then become economical to then ship this rock from fiji where most of our livestock comes from via a faster method(air cargo). We would be growing out sponges and tunicates that could actually live longer in our aquariums because we make the conditions more habitable for that life? The bugs and critters would be from the same area as the coral and fish we place in them. Am I wrong with my assumptions? Would this not provide as you state an even better foundation for your reef?

I am glad you like the tampa bay rock. If I ever intended to get into the live rock business I wouldn't even be here chatting about this. I would make it myself and keep my methods to myself. If TBS wants to culture ceramic rock hey no one is stopping them. I am just saying I believe it is a better surface to culture inhabitants internally and externally than what they are using and if I had my choice of where I want my rock to come from it would be the same place my coral and fish come from. Either one is free to do it, I am not trying to sell anyone anything. I am just suggesting maybe they look into it. I no longer make ceramic only aquascapes because we just do not have the capacity to do it anymore. It was always just a side thing for us as my business focus is frag plugs and coral propagation supplies. So I encourage them to do it because I feel they could benefit and the industry could benefit from it.