Enough with the live sales already

[NS Mike D]

Its not about vendors seeing this thread, it's about pulling back the curtain and showing customers that this isn't as good as you think it is.

The problem is that this is a touchy subject for r2r staff because when they host a sale like this, $500 is paid to this site. Of course Rev will retort with, "this is a business and needs to make money". But that's not my point, the staff here at r2r is biased to the alternative. Even though live sales are met with a lot of negative press, they will try to sway you by derailing or politely tell you to shut up and color. Just look how many r2r staff joined in to persuade this conversation. Almost like theres a thread in the Mod section that asks staff to change the subject.

I'm not saying this to make the staff mad... I'm saying all this to open the eyes of r2r patrons.

If given the choice to conveniently shop for corals, or to fight the refresh button in hopes to pay more for a coral, what would you really want?

Customers are forced to participate in live sales from certain vendors because they refuse to do it the traditional way anymore, out of convenience for them. Although if you want to make it easier on vendors, by all means continue to support these sales. If you have software that can almost guarantee you get the coral of your choice through these sales, then by all means continue support these sales.

But if you want to sit at home looking at your tank, thinking I can add a few more corals, let me search the online vendors and order a few, then stop supporting live sales. If you're reading a thread on r2r and see a coral you want and go to a vendor website to order said coral, then stop supporting these live sales.

not true. They have the option to not participate and shop elsewhere.

Seems silly to be blaming the vendors for giving customers what they want. It's very easy to comparison shop.

I disagree that with your statement that R2R staff are persuading anyone to shut up and color. The site permits a lot of criticism of the vendors so long as it's done respectfully and backed up by evidence, and they provide the opportunity to defend themselves. Explaining the logic is not the same as changing the subject. I disagree 100% that is what the mods were doing here.

It's mind boggling that you come to that conclusion in a thread that has been left open to criticize live sales, and not one post from the staff was made to persuade any discussion away from the pricing techniques, supply manipulation and technology inequality in live sales, which as far as I can tell was the main gripes and this thread is openly unveiling for anyone to read and decide for themselves if a live sale is good for them.

The markets will bear out true deficiencies in live sales - basic supply and demand, If they are truly bad, and vendor will step up and address those deficiencies and take away business from the bad vendors.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

Respectfully, you're wrong there. That was an artifact of Rev simply asking us, in the back room, if we knew anything about this issue because he did not.

I'm more than happy to share my personal thoughts on the OP subject, when I have a bit more time in a bit.

I definitely dont want to derail the thread even more with behind the scenes discussion. "Almost like" wasn't meant to be taken seriously. The underlying message was that staff did have a conversation and decided not to take it private or to another thread. Instead choose to gum up this thread. Why? I understand the push back, but I also can't wrap my mind around why these threads get tampered down, unless it was to subvert popular opinion. Just speculation.

I get it, servers to support that much traffic cost money, but you cant keep forcing a dying fad.

The relevancy of my post was that you can't talk about live sales without peeling back some of the layers, put the cards on the table. I definitely don't want to debate behind the scene conversations.

 

[Pntbll687]

update

tried wwc one more time. only 87 coral to choose from, only 14 options under $50.

I think I'm gonna start coral propagating and just sell $50 and under frags. Seems like thats what people want

 

[MelReefer]

update

tried wwc one more time. only 87 coral to choose from, only 14 options under $50.

I think I'm gonna start coral propagating and just sell $50 and under frags. Seems like thats what people want

Well the vendors are just holding everything back for live sales so when we see through the scam and stop participating they will start releasing their stock to the websites.

 

[NS Mike D]

I definitely dont want to derail the thread even more with behind the scenes discussion. "Almost like" wasn't meant to be taken seriously. The underlying message was that staff did have a conversation and decided not to take it private or to another thread. Instead choose to gum up this thread. Why? I understand the push back, but I also can't wrap my mind around why these threads get tampered down, unless it was to subvert popular opinion. Just speculation.

I get it, servers to support that much traffic cost money, but you cant keep forcing a dying fad.

The relevancy of my post was that you can't talk about live sales without peeling back some of the layers, put the cards on the table. I definitely don't want to debate behind the scene conversations.

And that is happening. This thread remains a "peeling back layers". and it will be expected that R2R staff will interject when incorrect statements get made or provide an explanation to clarify their policy with regard to live sales.

i get why there was a direct response (and back room investigation) to a member who made an accusation about deletion of his posts in the context of this thread. It was productive from the context of this thread for Rev to state he was not aware of it and let us know he would look into it. And it turns out it was user error. He added another claim which a mod posted the user agreement and the context of how said thread was deemed in violation of it


So , since there has been no censorship or arm twisting about the topic, lets continue teh discussion, @Pntbll687 made an excellent point and how it will affect his buying decisions

 

[tehmadreefer]

Well the vendors are just holding everything back for live sales so when we see through the scam and stop participating they will start releasing their stock to the websites.

that’s the thing though, it’s us more experienced reefers that see it. Id say 80 to even 90 percent of those on the live sales are new people in the hobby. You can tell just by the types of coral wwc posts nowadays. Zoas, acans, Duncan’s, eupyllia, montis and favites mainly.

some nice sps yes, but nothing like they used to.

 

[Olefreebe]

I was interested in joining their Coral Club but with the live sales going on it makes me put a little more thought into it.

 

[BrandonS]

Its not about vendors seeing this thread, it's about pulling back the curtain and showing customers that this isn't as good as you think it is.

The problem is that this is a touchy subject for r2r staff because when they host a sale like this, $500 is paid to this site. Of course Rev will retort with, "this is a business and needs to make money". But that's not my point, the staff here at r2r is biased to the alternative. Even though live sales are met with a lot of negative press, they will try to sway you by derailing or politely tell you to shut up and color. Just look how many r2r staff joined in to persuade this conversation. Almost like theres a thread in the Mod section that asks staff to change the subject.

I'm not saying this to make the staff mad... I'm saying all this to open the eyes of r2r patrons.

If given the choice to conveniently shop for corals, or to fight the refresh button in hopes to pay more for a coral, what would you really want?

Customers are forced to participate in live sales from certain vendors because they refuse to do it the traditional way anymore, out of convenience for them. Although if you want to make it easier on vendors, by all means continue to support these sales. If you have software that can almost guarantee you get the coral of your choice through these sales, then by all means continue support these sales.

But if you want to sit at home looking at your tank, thinking I can add a few more corals, let me search the online vendors and order a few, then stop supporting live sales. If you're reading a thread on r2r and see a coral you want and go to a vendor website to order said coral, then stop supporting these live sales.

Voting with the wallet is the best bet for sure.

 

[NS Mike D]

Well the vendors are just holding everything back for live sales so when we see through the scam and stop participating they will start releasing their stock to the websites.

if they have been able to obtain stock that is perceived more desirable and a reputation for being reliable more power to them for managing their stock to get the best prices. It's their reward for establishing a competitive advantage.

McDonalads v Peter Luger. No one would ever tell you that Peter Luger in Brooklyn has good service or is convenient in any way (cash only and gotta cross a bridge) but the remain packed and charge top dollar. They have established their brand that is highly desired. Meanwhile, McDonalds has survived by good pricing and consistency. Never the best product, but you can travel the world and know what you will get and at what price.

Markets will segment out to meet demand. A value coral vendor will emerge. It sort of failed with the Petco acquisition, but if demand keeps driving prices up like they have, sooner or later someone will be able to do the mcdonalds model while the Jason Fox's continue to thrive.

 

[MelReefer]

if they have been able to obtain stock that is perceived more desirable and a reputation for being reliable more power to them for managing their stock to get the best prices. It's their reward for establishing a competitive advantage.

McDonalads v Peter Luger. No one would ever tell you that Peter Luger in Brooklyn has good service or is convenient in any way (cash only and gotta cross a bridge) but the remain packed and charge top dollar. They have established their brand that is highly desired. Meanwhile, McDonalds has survived by good pricing and consistency. Never the best product, but you can travel the world and know what you will get and at what price.

Markets will segment out to meet demand. A value coral vendor will emerge. It sort of failed with the Petco acquisition, but if demand keeps driving prices up like they have, sooner or later someone will be able to do the mcdonalds model while the Jason Fox's continue to thrive.

Some good points you are making. I’m really considering just buying from real hobbyists here on r2r. The prices are always better and you can even get freebies.

 

[Fakegolfnews]

Its hilarious that people think they are getting a good deal on 3 AOI's on sale for $98 from $150. You can find them at several retailers all the time for less than that. Someone on the marketplace was selling 50+ AOI polyps for $250. But theyd rather spend all day pressing refresh.

 

[Kyl]

Here's the overpriced on sale question of the day, if the vendors see this thread, do you guys think it will change anything?

Nothing will change, these "sales" are cash cows from all the impulse buying the format fosters.

As for threads never being "deleted", it's technically correct. They just get moved out of general sight, or changed to "vendor feedback" and you're told to stop making negative posts that are creating issue for those paying the bills.

 

[BrandonS]

I don’t even know what thread your talking about (I was just speaking in general). I didn’t delete anything. Btw it doesn’t matter if I agree with the views or not (Or anyone for that matter). As soon as it becomes political in any way shape or form it will be removed. It’s a simple extension of the TOS. Threads are usually discussed before being removed as well, it's not like we have a rogue mod that just runs around and deletes things that they don't agree with. Only threads that are a violation of the terms of service are removed and usually there is a discussion about it prior to removal that happens unless its clear vulgarity or something like that. The mod team is very diverse and we all have our own views and discussions between the team certainly don't go without disagreement either! I have been a part of the team for almost 2 years and I have never seen a thread removed that was because someone didn't agree with views or opinions in the thread. Only threads that violated a rule in some way shape or form. Only rules are moderated, not opinion. No one is going to banish you lol.

You would also probably be surprised at the number of threads that are reported on the regular where someone asks for 'bad advice' or something they don't agree with to be removed. We don't remove them. Again we don't moderate opinion, only rules.

that’s the thing though, it’s us more experienced reefers that see it. Id say 80 to even 90 percent of those on the live sales are new people in the hobby. You can tell just by the types of coral wwc posts nowadays. Zoas, acans, Duncan’s, eupyllia, montis and favites mainly.

some nice sps yes, but nothing like they used to.

Turnover is definitely and issue with the hobby. Not just for live stock but everything. The new person will see you need thousands of dollars the more experienced will say it can be done for less. May not be the best or have all the bells and whistles but it can be done with cheaper equipment.

 

[LRT]

I don’t even know what thread your talking about (I was just speaking in general). I didn’t delete anything. Btw it doesn’t matter if I agree with the views or not (Or anyone for that matter). As soon as it becomes political in any way shape or form it will be removed. It’s a simple extension of the TOS. Threads are usually discussed before being removed as well, it's not like we have a rogue mod that just runs around and deletes things that they don't agree with. Only threads that are a violation of the terms of service are removed and usually there is a discussion about it prior to removal that happens unless its clear vulgarity or something like that. The mod team is very diverse and we all have our own views and discussions between the team certainly don't go without disagreement either! I have been a part of the team for almost 2 years and I have never seen a thread removed that was because someone didn't agree with views or opinions in the thread. Only threads that violated a rule in some way shape or form. Only rules are moderated, not opinion. No one is going to banish you lol.

You would also probably be surprised at the number of threads that are reported on the regular where someone asks for 'bad advice' or something they don't agree with to be removed. We don't remove them. Again we don't moderate opinion, only rules.

Hi HotRocks. Yesterday was a very humbling day for me here. First I was wrong on the accusation that one of my posts was deleted that was totally my misunderstanding as I posted in a thread that was basically identical to Rev's thread and I didnt catch that so that was my bad.
Second after thinking on it all I would have handled my disagreement differently and not aired it out publicly I guess but glad I did and we worked through it and after Rev's hug I felt alot better.
Furthermore I respect this for what it is honestly this is a business and who I am I to really tell anyone how to run anyone else's business than my own so I was wrong on that too even tho.
I sincerely dont mind the live sales and do get it and is smart from the vendors side just wish I could go and get an in stock coral sometimes is all.
That thread was deleted and it did kind of bother me as we where having great discussion about stocks and options and alot of good info was produced. Unfortunately I dont think you can really have a discussion like that without the prospects of politics coming in to play somewhere along the line as well as the covid stuff considering the times we are living in.
Either way its been hashed out and looking forward to getting back to reefing here.
Hope everyone is having a great day on the REEF!
Peace all

 

[Cell]

Tried a couple, decided they weren't necessarily for me. Not sure what the big deal is. They still exist, I don't participate.

 

[BrandonS]

if they have been able to obtain stock that is perceived more desirable and a reputation for being reliable more power to them for managing their stock to get the best prices. It's their reward for establishing a competitive advantage.

McDonalads v Peter Luger. No one would ever tell you that Peter Luger in Brooklyn has good service or is convenient in any way (cash only and gotta cross a bridge) but the remain packed and charge top dollar. They have established their brand that is highly desired. Meanwhile, McDonalds has survived by good pricing and consistency. Never the best product, but you can travel the world and know what you will get and at what price.

Markets will segment out to meet demand. A value coral vendor will emerge. It sort of failed with the Petco acquisition, but if demand keeps driving prices up like they have, sooner or later someone will be able to do the mcdonalds model while the Jason Fox's continue to thrive.

I had a big mac in china and I knew what I was getting.

Growth mindset would say there is enough to go around. Voting with the wallet is the only real way to sway to either camp.

 

[NS Mike D]

Nothing will change, these "sales" are cash cows from all the impulse buying the format fosters.

As for threads never being "deleted", it's technically correct. They just get moved out of general sight, or changed to "vendor feedback" and you're told to stop making negative posts that are creating issue for those paying the bills.

I disagree. The reason they are cash cows now is due to market inefficiencies. Several vendors have been able to manage their inventory and market branding to exploit the buzz they can create (along with covid timing where shoppers are not out and about with other priorities).

They won't go away, but competition will force better sales for the consumer.

I agree with the second point except the last negative thread I saw that got locked and removed (a few days ago) was not done so because of of negative post about those paying the bills but rather all the personal attacks between the OP and a few participants in the thread.

Meanwhile there have been a number of negative threads about vendors since that have not been closed. For example, there was a recent algae barn thread I remember because they jumped in and ate crow over a series of mistakes made by their customer service rep and a poorly rolled out software.

I think it's unfair to make a blanket statement like that when in fact, while it may happen, the opposite is often true.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

All I'm saying is if you took both models, (single day fast paced live sales and fully stocked websites where patrons can shop at their convenience) set them side by side and told the customer to choose, the majority would select the latter. And rightfully so the vendors will benefit more from the former.

The chief concern that most are complaining about is the everyday availability from these vendors which as I understand is dismal at best. And the vendor knows that they can't offer both models. If they did, live sales will have very little participation due to the fact that we don't have to spend all day clicking refresh and eventually lose out to a BOT because we can simply go a select a coral from their website at our convenience.

The customer is losing out in favor to vendor advantage. I'm of the opinion that if there was a level playing field, live sales would cease to exist. But we all know that's not going to happen until light is shed and customers understand that there is an alternative.

I agree that it boils down to voting with your wallet, but you can't have an uninformed patron vote with their wallet if they don't know that there's a better way to do things.

 

[Copingwithpods]

Its not about vendors seeing this thread, it's about pulling back the curtain and showing customers that this isn't as good as you think it is.

The problem is that this is a touchy subject for r2r staff because when they host a sale like this, $500 is paid to this site. Of course Rev will retort with, "this is a business and needs to make money". But that's not my point, the staff here at r2r is biased to the alternative. Even though live sales are met with a lot of negative press, they will try to sway you by derailing or politely tell you to shut up and color. Just look how many r2r staff joined in to persuade this conversation. Almost like theres a thread in the Mod section that asks staff to change the subject.

I'm not saying this to make the staff mad... I'm saying all this to open the eyes of r2r patrons.

If given the choice to conveniently shop for corals, or to fight the refresh button in hopes to pay more for a coral, what would you really want?

Customers are forced to participate in live sales from certain vendors because they refuse to do it the traditional way anymore, out of convenience for them. Although if you want to make it easier on vendors, by all means continue to support these sales. If you have software that can almost guarantee you get the coral of your choice through these sales, then by all means continue support these sales.

But if you want to sit at home looking at your tank, thinking I can add a few more corals, let me search the online vendors and order a few, then stop supporting live sales. If you're reading a thread on r2r and see a coral you want and go to a vendor website to order said coral, then stop supporting these live sales.

I wish we could just go to vendors websites and purchase corals without supporting the live sale aspect of it but now a days that just isn't possible because of the extremely limited quantity.

I just visited 2 top vendors sites and both have a total posted stock of frags of under 100 pieces. That is extremely disappointing for the casual buyer. It be nice if instead of a 3000 frag sale they would do a 2000 frag sale and throw the extra 1000 on their website for casual purchases, hit both markets.

With such a limited selection on their sites and such a massive selection on the sales side its forcing people who are looking for that specific frag to participate in the live sales in hopes of attaining it.

I'm sure after covid all of this will return to normal its just a little frustrating right now that I can no longer browse thousands of corals at my leisure, it's all go go go refresh and hurry up and buy.

Imagine the out cry if a vendor such as BRS stocked under 100 items day to day and the only way to purchase supplys was during a weekend live sale where you had to compete with thousands of other users also starved for supplys and in some cases outbid them, over paying for things that can't be found elsewhere. I'd be WWIII

 

[Surfzone]

I can't beleave I read this whole thread. I personally don't mind the live sales. I dont participate in all of them just the few vendors that I shop with and have had good experience with. I just got a few corals from Jason Fox during his live sale last weekend, and I like how he post the corals on his site too. So that's where I bought from; I got 4 nice corals that I was looking for without pressure. I do agree that the majority of people in the sales are new reefers and want an Insta-tank. I also agree that it would be nice if some vendors had more available corals all the time and not hord them.