Jeepguy242
Valuable Member
yes.... this!!!!!
Everything's Dying?!
- Thread starter DiZASTiX
- Start date
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yes.... this!!!!!
Dom
Full Time Reef Keeper
An easy way to bring up pH is oxygenation. You can run an air stone in the sump. Additionally, you can open a window and run a fan pointed it at the tank. Are you getting good surface agitation? This is important where gas exchange is concerned.
TexasTodd
Valuable Member
Last few posts are great. Do you have a skimmer? I didn't see one listed.
Personally, I would do a partial water change to lower alk. I wouldn't dose P or N yet. Go find some fully cycled rock without pests from a tank breakdown. Stop dosing carbon. Don't worry much about PH but adding a skimmer will help if you don't have one and get some fresh air into the room. You don't have a sump, do you?
Personally, I would do a partial water change to lower alk. I wouldn't dose P or N yet. Go find some fully cycled rock without pests from a tank breakdown. Stop dosing carbon. Don't worry much about PH but adding a skimmer will help if you don't have one and get some fresh air into the room. You don't have a sump, do you?
sfin52
So many pedestrians so little time
I would not wory about dosing phosphates and nitrates just yet. I would stop dosing to remove them. Once you do that if they don’t come up I would look at dosing and the above mentioned are good choices. I would let your tank mature and figure itself out.
scott11106
Well-Known Member
It seems like you are trying to go too fast too quick, the tank needs time to build its eco system as stated prior. my 2 cents is to slow down and let the tank evolve, adding all of the dosing and quick fixes are just going to keep you chasing your tail...
by the way i speak with experience as i have zero patience and have paid for it in the past...
by the way i speak with experience as i have zero patience and have paid for it in the past...
elisa h
Active Member
Its not going to fall naturally unless you have corals not only in your tank but growing in your tank. I would do water changes to bring it down. Red Sea's reccomendation is fine although I'm not sure why you want to target high alk right now. Most people will tell you that if you're running an ultra low nutrient system you shouldn't have alk over 8 (don't bring it down this low right now though, it should be a gradual change). Once you lower your current alk to desired level I would stop doing water changes for a bit and let your system build up nutrients naturally. Stop dosing carbon and don't run gfo. These can be recipes for disaster for very new systems. Add a new fish or two and add some easier corals as the fish will add nutrients and the coral plugs will bring bacteria and new life.
Rick Krejci
Active Member
Just looking at your PH, it's obvious there are no nutrients or algae since there are no PH swings with the light.
Bringing the coral back to the store to hopefully save it may be the best option. As others have said, slow down, stop dosing, let alk/Ca fall naturally. I'd get some Florida live rock to get your tank seeded with abundant microfauna. Without any coral in there, just cycle the rock in your tank with minimal lights and let it go for a month or 2 and you will have a pod explosion and lots of nitrates and phosphates. Slowly ramp up your lights and then you could consider carbon dosing or, my preference, chaeto in the sump. Then your tank should be much more bullet proof.
I did the same dry rock think last year and had nothing but problems with cyano, dinos and other crap. I did the Red Sea mature Pro kit and had similar issues to you, since it includes carbon dosing which I now know shouldn't be done until it's needed.
I added FL live rock and now everything is much more stable. No cyano or dinos, maintaining fairly steady Nitrate and Phosphates and little algae.
I do have some hitchhikers (a few Aiptasia (so far controllable with Aiptasia-X), eunice worm, clicking (probably pistol shrimp)), but I'm a guy who loves to get a flashlight out and see what creatures lurk in there. If they cause problems, I'll try to get them out.
Bringing the coral back to the store to hopefully save it may be the best option. As others have said, slow down, stop dosing, let alk/Ca fall naturally. I'd get some Florida live rock to get your tank seeded with abundant microfauna. Without any coral in there, just cycle the rock in your tank with minimal lights and let it go for a month or 2 and you will have a pod explosion and lots of nitrates and phosphates. Slowly ramp up your lights and then you could consider carbon dosing or, my preference, chaeto in the sump. Then your tank should be much more bullet proof.
I did the same dry rock think last year and had nothing but problems with cyano, dinos and other crap. I did the Red Sea mature Pro kit and had similar issues to you, since it includes carbon dosing which I now know shouldn't be done until it's needed.
I added FL live rock and now everything is much more stable. No cyano or dinos, maintaining fairly steady Nitrate and Phosphates and little algae.
I do have some hitchhikers (a few Aiptasia (so far controllable with Aiptasia-X), eunice worm, clicking (probably pistol shrimp)), but I'm a guy who loves to get a flashlight out and see what creatures lurk in there. If they cause problems, I'll try to get them out.
lzrlvr
Active Member
Hi buy some real reef live rock some caribsea live sand and the salt mix you like and ro/di water use small pump to mix air and water for 12 to 24 hours then add salt mix usually one half cup per gallon slowly one half cup at a time while water is agitated by the pump and stir between each cup after adding let pump run for 12 to 48 hours at least.when ready add sand about 1/2 to 3/4 inch then some water then add live rock as desired fill tank to the proper level turn on filter and circulation pump.photo of my 15 gallon nano after one month running
DiZASTiX
Spikeasaurus
@elisa h I'll do some water changes (maybe one a day or two). There're still corals in there surviving. I don't know if you count that as growing. However, acids arising from carbon dosing would cause pH to drop, and alkalinity would buffer the pH back, thereby being slightly consumed, as the tests overnite would suggest. I think combining your suggestion with the correcting alkalinity, the tank could be safe within as few as one or two days. Per Randy, the highest recommended alkalinity is 11; however, what would you all say the highest safe pH is? Perhaps for example, 12 might be considered poor practice, but safe for a few days, whereas clearly, 13.5 isn't. I would like to know when surviving corals are outside a state of emergency.
@Rick Krejci There's actually a chaeto reactor, but I didn't think it was substantial in growth. The lights are acclimated to be on 24/7. I'd do the Florida live rock but I've been trying specifically to ensure there are no pests, using the techniques mentioned on BRS TV. However, since I last posted, I had disabled dosing of Part 1, 2, 3, and carbon, and my pH has risen from a lowest point of 7.77 to now 7.93. I think the matter is just tuning the carbon dosing against both pH and visible signs on bacterial growth. It's a balancing game, and I fell over, because my system wasn't balanced.
There's a Reef Octopus Skimmer 200-s model, I believe. It's rated well above what I need by several times over at the beginning, in theory.
@Rick Krejci There's actually a chaeto reactor, but I didn't think it was substantial in growth. The lights are acclimated to be on 24/7. I'd do the Florida live rock but I've been trying specifically to ensure there are no pests, using the techniques mentioned on BRS TV. However, since I last posted, I had disabled dosing of Part 1, 2, 3, and carbon, and my pH has risen from a lowest point of 7.77 to now 7.93. I think the matter is just tuning the carbon dosing against both pH and visible signs on bacterial growth. It's a balancing game, and I fell over, because my system wasn't balanced.
There's a Reef Octopus Skimmer 200-s model, I believe. It's rated well above what I need by several times over at the beginning, in theory.
I love BRS as much as the next person and think they are one of the few good guys in the industry. However, they don't sell live rock. They sell dry rock. So of course they will not promote live rock in any way.
I think the intentions behind dry rock were good and make/made a lot of sense. No pests is very appealing. It also needs to be noted that you will have no life as well. Your tank will not mature for a long time since you have to add all that life that live rock brings.
I've started with dry rock for the last time. What a total pain it has been.
elisa h
Active Member
In your first post you said your pH was around 7.8. Thats a perfectly fine pH. It could even be a little higher, around 8. I wouldn't worry too much about pH as long as it doesn't drop below 7, making the water acidic. I think the corals are out of emergency when alk comes down to around 11, like randy said. It will come down a bit naturally like you said but alk is mainly consumed by growing corals and coralline. A lot of people measure their coral growth by seeing how much alk has dropped within a certain time period. So I think you're best bet is water changes to lower alkalinity, then honestly just sit back and relax, add a fish or two to raise nutrients, and let the tank do it's thing. You want to let it stabilize so leaving things alone at this point is best. Once parameters are optimal I don't see why you couldn't try your hand at some more sps.
dede
Active Member
Sounds to me like you are chasing numbers and looking for the quick fix. Most important thing is keeping levels stable and letting the system mature. Throwing one product after another at it is not going to solve your problem.
I think if you want to save the sps I would get someone who is already keeping sps successfully to house them for you, maybe in exchange for frags. Otherwise put them on the sand bed and forget about them for a while. Focus on the corals that are doing well and stay with those types for now. You system is just too new for sps.
The other option I see for you is buying someone's used reef setup complete with fish, coral, live rock etc that has been established for several years instead of starting everything from scratch. That way you could move what you have over to a more mature system.
I am afraid at the rate you are going though you are just going to get very frustrated and probably give up the hobby entirely. You need to build on the successes you have and be satisfied with that and move forward slowly.
I think if you want to save the sps I would get someone who is already keeping sps successfully to house them for you, maybe in exchange for frags. Otherwise put them on the sand bed and forget about them for a while. Focus on the corals that are doing well and stay with those types for now. You system is just too new for sps.
The other option I see for you is buying someone's used reef setup complete with fish, coral, live rock etc that has been established for several years instead of starting everything from scratch. That way you could move what you have over to a more mature system.
I am afraid at the rate you are going though you are just going to get very frustrated and probably give up the hobby entirely. You need to build on the successes you have and be satisfied with that and move forward slowly.
DiZASTiX
Spikeasaurus
I performed a "test" water change--approximately 9 L changed, so about 6% changed. The alkalinity dropped from 13.2 to 12.8. Based on what you said, it sounds like an additional water change my result in too much of an additional drop in alkalinity.
DiZASTiX
Spikeasaurus
Thank you for the perspective. To clarify, I'm not new to the hobby, but I'm using a set of philosophies new to me, particularly the idea of pest prevention. In the past, I've used live rock acquired from others. This time however, I am doing everything possible to move beyond subduing pests, but to prevent them altogether--and if not, at least performing due diligence. In this way, we are learning new techniques and aspects of the hobby. I thank everyone's recommendations on this matter of live rock, but I will stand firm and follow BRS' recommendation on using dry rock, now recognising the inherent increased risks.
I don't think it's merely about stability; the alkalinity has been the same amount for some time now. Now that I recall, I believe it did begin with an accidental overdosing of Kalk due to to a misunderstanding in syntax, causing dosing to occur on a second basis rather than a minute basis. If it were as simple as stability--I do tests very frequently, and I get consistent values. If the parameters don't matter, we don't need to discuss the alkalinity. I agree that the prudent course of action is to address alkalinity as the primary focus area.
Sarah24!
2500 Club Member
Hello,
Reading through your thread, raised some flags.
This forum has tons of lovely people and they all have amazing knowledge. 90% of them have already pointed out, the potential issues and problems, and or why your having said problems.
My advice is that, this is an ecosystem and it’s life, you have to allow it to become its own system. In this hobby, it’s a very sensitive system, and the more you mess with it, well the more you can harm it. In this hobby almost everything we do is a possible risk. Having this idea that just because you used dry rock or sand etc will prevent something is not ideal. This is life and it will find away to thrive one way or another.
From my experience, and from reading from others most people don’t put coral in at least until their tank has fully completed all three blooms, clean up crew has been in for two weeks, and then possibly a test fish for a week or two. Then usually after about 6-8 weeks maybe a soft coral, or a very hardy lps. Most do not jump into sps, right away, unless maybe it’s a tank transfer etc.
There is a saying, if it’s not broke don’t fix it. There is never any harm in trying new things, but trying new things and losing life because of it, is never a good idea. My honest suggestion would be to literally take your sps out of your tank. Go back to your lfs, have them keep it in their stable display tank, or a tank which ever.
Once your tank, has cycled, is stable and has the basic needs to sustain life, then start with your clean up crew. After two weeks test your water, (have your lfs test it, they have more experience doing this), see which fish you could place in it, that you will want to keep and enjoy. Dropping a 100 dollar fish in there, probably isn’t the best idea, but again this is your tank. After you select your fish(s) and they are doing fine, then maybe start with a soft coral, or even an lps. Then after a month or more maybe move your sps back into it.
This is a very slow moving hobby, it is and it can be hard to understand that. But it’s not fun when you lose a fish or coral, it’s not pleasant at all. I highly suggest you just stop dosing let Mother Nature do her job. Remember you have a small tank, the parameters will swing way worse than say a 90, or 125, or even like mine a 240. Remember there are always risks when it comes to these ecosystems, trying to eliminate them all will drive you crazy.
This is the best place for advice and help, we all love to help you and do what we can. The only thing we can’t control is if you do not follow our advice. We have all made mistakes, and we lol like me still make the same one. The biggest mistake I had to learn at the beginning was leaving it alone. The more you mess with it, the more you break it.
I really hope things turn out very well, and that you stick with it and keep going. You may have a rough road ahead, and you may not, but given either I still hope to see your tank thriving, and we def wanna see pics of how it’s doing.
Also your lights should be on nothing but acclimation right now. Remember just because your friend, or lfs, has their lights at 100%, and their tank is simply amazing, doesn’t mean you can. You have two completely separate ecosystems, they are similar but different, like earth and mars. Your lfs tank is earth, and right now your tank is mars. We want to colonize your mars tank to be like earth.
Sincerely
Sarah
Reading through your thread, raised some flags.
This forum has tons of lovely people and they all have amazing knowledge. 90% of them have already pointed out, the potential issues and problems, and or why your having said problems.My advice is that, this is an ecosystem and it’s life, you have to allow it to become its own system. In this hobby, it’s a very sensitive system, and the more you mess with it, well the more you can harm it. In this hobby almost everything we do is a possible risk. Having this idea that just because you used dry rock or sand etc will prevent something is not ideal. This is life and it will find away to thrive one way or another.
From my experience, and from reading from others most people don’t put coral in at least until their tank has fully completed all three blooms, clean up crew has been in for two weeks, and then possibly a test fish for a week or two. Then usually after about 6-8 weeks maybe a soft coral, or a very hardy lps. Most do not jump into sps, right away, unless maybe it’s a tank transfer etc.
There is a saying, if it’s not broke don’t fix it. There is never any harm in trying new things, but trying new things and losing life because of it, is never a good idea. My honest suggestion would be to literally take your sps out of your tank. Go back to your lfs, have them keep it in their stable display tank, or a tank which ever.
Once your tank, has cycled, is stable and has the basic needs to sustain life, then start with your clean up crew. After two weeks test your water, (have your lfs test it, they have more experience doing this), see which fish you could place in it, that you will want to keep and enjoy. Dropping a 100 dollar fish in there, probably isn’t the best idea, but again this is your tank. After you select your fish(s) and they are doing fine, then maybe start with a soft coral, or even an lps. Then after a month or more maybe move your sps back into it.
This is a very slow moving hobby, it is and it can be hard to understand that. But it’s not fun when you lose a fish or coral, it’s not pleasant at all. I highly suggest you just stop dosing let Mother Nature do her job. Remember you have a small tank, the parameters will swing way worse than say a 90, or 125, or even like mine a 240. Remember there are always risks when it comes to these ecosystems, trying to eliminate them all will drive you crazy.
This is the best place for advice and help, we all love to help you and do what we can. The only thing we can’t control is if you do not follow our advice. We have all made mistakes, and we lol like me still make the same one. The biggest mistake I had to learn at the beginning was leaving it alone. The more you mess with it, the more you break it.
I really hope things turn out very well, and that you stick with it and keep going. You may have a rough road ahead, and you may not, but given either I still hope to see your tank thriving, and we def wanna see pics of how it’s doing.
Also your lights should be on nothing but acclimation right now. Remember just because your friend, or lfs, has their lights at 100%, and their tank is simply amazing, doesn’t mean you can. You have two completely separate ecosystems, they are similar but different, like earth and mars. Your lfs tank is earth, and right now your tank is mars. We want to colonize your mars tank to be like earth.
Sincerely
Sarah
Rick Krejci
Active Member
To me, maintaining an aquarium starting with only dry rock with no "seeding" of microfauna from anywhere is like balancing a ball bearing on a beachball. When something happens, there is nothing inherent in the tank that will fill a niche to bring things back in balance. The second you get a lot of nutrients in there, there will be a battle for them and things like GHA, Cyano and Dino's, which are all potentially in your tank right now, will likely dominate without competition. At that point, GHA is your friend since it's the easiest to control via a CUC. Having a large variety of microfauna can reduce the chances of Dinos and Cyano taking over the tank.
I've had live rock tanks for about 25 years now. For this one, I decided to start with exactly the same idea as you. Had dry rock, oversized skimmer, Chaeto and everything else before any other life was in there. Used ammonium chloride for "nutrients". It cycled fine and I started with fish to get it mature. Lots of battles with various plagues. Added live rock, and things settled down.
I completely understand and respect your decision to minimize the chance that pests are introduced. Probably the best alternative to ocean live rock is getting a rock chunk or 2 and some sand from a trusted source with a mature pest-free aquarium or maybe something like GARF grunge.
In a few years, the dry rock tank will settle in and be stable, with the ball bearing balancing beachball become a flat plane and eventually a self-stable bowl, but I think this is partially due to microfauna being introduced via coral and fish additions.
I've had live rock tanks for about 25 years now. For this one, I decided to start with exactly the same idea as you. Had dry rock, oversized skimmer, Chaeto and everything else before any other life was in there. Used ammonium chloride for "nutrients". It cycled fine and I started with fish to get it mature. Lots of battles with various plagues. Added live rock, and things settled down.
I completely understand and respect your decision to minimize the chance that pests are introduced. Probably the best alternative to ocean live rock is getting a rock chunk or 2 and some sand from a trusted source with a mature pest-free aquarium or maybe something like GARF grunge.
In a few years, the dry rock tank will settle in and be stable, with the ball bearing balancing beachball become a flat plane and eventually a self-stable bowl, but I think this is partially due to microfauna being introduced via coral and fish additions.
