Explain the difference between Kessel AP700 and Black box Diodes please

[LostInTheDark]

This is the lense from a Kessel AP700. The cheaper Chinese black boxes have what appear to be a single chip diode.

I am trying to understand why there is such a difference between the two. I have the Ocean Revive Leds that repeatedly need to have the diodes replaced because they lose spectrum and eventually burn out. I know this happens to all the cheaper Leds across most brands. The higher end lights do not appear to have this problem. Is there a name for each type of diode? How do you know which company uses the better diodes? Are they full spectrum in each Diode?
If you could summarize the difference between the two and how you know who uses the better ones I would appreciate it.

 

[reynaldoramon]

I can tell you Kessil does their own R&D and manufacturing while all other companies just buy diodes and throw them on their products.

 

[LostInTheDark]

I guess I'm looking for more of a "What do I look for?" Kinda answer. How do you know what last and what doesn't?

 

[tanklife3]

Following

 

[reynaldoramon]

Have you seen this? A lot of information.

 

[LostInTheDark]

I just watched the video. Great source of info. I know BRS has no interest in the lower end lights but I would have been great if they included 1 Chinese black box for comparison.

 

[TheEngineer]

The lifetime of an LED is affected very heavily by the temperature it runs at and the current at which it is driven. That makes cooling a very important component of the system and running them below their maximum rated power critical. The lifetime of an LED is expressed, typically, not as when the LED will burn out but when it fails to meet 70% of the rated output. For lamps that are truly burning out, it is likely more to do with the hardware around the lamp than the lamp itself. Simply having the best diodes in a crummy fixture won't solve the problem.

You can think of it like putting a racing engine in a Ford Pinto. Yeah, it's got 750 horsepower, but the thing just spins the tires when you touch the gas. The capability of the engine is there, but the car can't make use of it.

 

[reynaldoramon]

As far as the Kessil AP700..each of those tiny squares is a different led diode. They don't all put out the same color or spectrum. White, blue, red, magenta, UV, yellow, and green are all represented. I know that much.
It's more compact that what other LEDS do. Their proprietary dense matrix.

 

[LostInTheDark]

Its odd because the OR lights are spaced farther apart and have thick heat sinks so it looks like they do everything right. It is always the same blue channel containing a majority of the 450 diodes that burn out. From everyone else's post it appears to be an identical problem on every fixture. They have had this issue for at least 2 years as it happens on there old and new fixtures so I doubt if it was a bad batch of diodes.

 

[TheEngineer]

I doubt it is the diode too. A thick heatsink does not mean it is adequate to pull the heat off that is being generated. That said, my guess is they are over-driving the blues causing them to blow. I don't know that fixture at all, so I don't know any of the features of it. Can you dim each channel separately, can you dim at all or is it ON/OFF?

 

[LostInTheDark]

Its dimmable. I run whites 50% and blues 75%. They grew SPS great when I first got them. I started losing colonies until I realized that the blues were hardly working. OR swapped out the fixtures and everything was good again. It happened again this year. Now I have no faith in the fixtures as they slowly loss spectrum and/or par and SPS slowly die away. LPS are great.
My main question is can you buy a reliable light that is not $800 apiece as I have a 6 foot tank and cost really add up.

 

[TheEngineer]

You could get 3 Kessil A360WE. They cover 24x24" each. They're $400 each new, but you can usually find them used on here.

 

[ScubaSteve-21]

A black box is a black box is a black box, all made in China. I know a few lfs that have bins of them for spare parts because of how often they fail...so as far as reliability it's a definite no. Cost on the other hand can't be beat...main difference in the light output/quality is the COB (chip on board) multi or cluster design, it can't be beat. Kessil is not the only company making cob multi led fixtures, but they are the best quality out there right now. If you have seen a 360 or the ap700 in person it's outstanding! If I were you I would try 1 ap700 up high with 6' t5's to supplement.

 

[LostInTheDark]

Thanks for the reply. Looks like the COB Is the dividing line between units that last and the other s.
At this point I think I'll get an ATI 6x80 and run it next to my existing LEDs. That seems to be the general consensus of the best out there right now.

 

[gus6464]

A LED is a semiconductor. The main cause of semiconductor death is heat. Fixtures that are not cooled properly will die quickly. Chinese black box lights do not have proper cooling. The end.

 

[Reef kid]

I have to disagree with the black boxes not having proper cooling. They use two fans per box and they stay far cooler than my t5s I'm running at the moment. I ran them for over four months before I upgraded my tank to a 75 and just used the t5 that came with it. I am pulling that off because of heat and the light color. I think black boxes get a reputation they don't deserve and a lot of people who hate them have never used them.

 

[TheEngineer]

The heat being referred to isn't the heat being put out into the room, it is the temperature of the diode itself.

 

[Reef kid]

Yes I know. Yet I could touch those fixtures at any point and time and not feel any heat,in fact the fixture felt cold. If I so much as nick my t5 fixture after a day of running it is insane how hot the thing is.

 

[gus6464]

Throwing T5 into this scenario makes no sense. T5's need to run at a specific temperature to be their most efficient. LEDs do not. Running a T5 too cold affects their performance greatly. Also if you think that the supposed 300W that these lights run at is being cooled properly by 2 fans and a PCB then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[LostInTheDark]

and a lot of people who hate them have never used them.

I loved my leds. I started with the Tao-Tronics and switched to Ocean Revive S026s. I thought they were great for color, growth, efficiency and longevity. Unfortunately they started off great and didn't last. They lost a lot of par over time and eventually burned out completely. When I started post about the issue many reefers realized they had the same issue with the lights and it forced OR to come clean about the issue and repair them. I have no interest in spending even more money on lighting but I lost a tremendous amount of corals because of the lights,