Explain the difference between Kessel AP700 and Black box Diodes please

gus6464 · Jan 5, 2016

An LEDs thermal efficiency goes down the gutter the harder you drive them. Just because you have a 3W LED doesn't mean you should drive them at 3W. For example a 3W Luxeon diode is most efficient when ran at 1-1.5W. That is, the lumens per watt is the highest. Now cooling efficiency when it comes to LED is not linear. So driving an LED 20% more does not mean you only need 20% more heat dissipation. The commercial LED fixtures we have in our tanks have a lot of compromises in terms of cooling. Not even the expensive stuff is immune to this. Try running an XR30 Radion at 100% full power all the time and see how long that fixture is going to last you.

So take for example a standard 3W max LED like the Luxeon ES.
Running 30x of them @ 1W is not the same as running 10x of them @3W when it comes to thermal efficiency.

Reef kid · Jan 5, 2016

LostInTheDark said:
I loved my leds. I started with the Tao-Tronics and switched to Ocean Revive S026s. I thought they were great for color, growth, efficiency and longevity. Unfortunately they started off great and didn't last. They lost a lot of par over time and eventually burned out completely. When I started post about the issue many reefers realized they had the same issue with the lights and it forced OR to come clean about the issue and repair them. I have no interest in spending even more money on lighting but I lost a tremendous amount of corals because of the lights,

that makes a lot of sense. I'm just saying black boxes as a whole get a bad rap. It seems to me this is only one company that is having issues, not every black box ever made.

Reef kid · Jan 5, 2016

gus6464 said:
Throwing T5 into this scenario makes no sense. T5's need to run at a specific temperature to be their most efficient. LEDs do not. Running a T5 too cold affects their performance greatly. Also if you think that the supposed 300W that these lights run at is being cooled properly by 2 fans and a PCB then I don't know what to tell you.

gus6464 said:
An LEDs thermal efficiency goes down the gutter the harder you drive them. Just because you have a 3W LED doesn't mean you should drive them at 3W. For example a 3W Luxeon diode is most efficient when ran at 1-1.5W. That is, the lumens per watt is the highest. Now cooling efficiency when it comes to LED is not linear. So driving an LED 20% more does not mean you only need 20% more heat dissipation. The commercial LED fixtures we have in our tanks have a lot of compromises in terms of cooling. Not even the expensive stuff is immune to this. Try running an XR30 Radion at 100% full power all the time and see how long that fixture is going to last you.

So take for example a standard 3W max LED like the Luxeon ES.
Running 30x of them @ 1W is not the same as running 10x of them @3W when it comes to thermal efficiency.

The fixtures I'm talking about are the 165w on eBay. They use 55 3w led chips and run them at 2w. The guys at my Lfs runs them on all of his tanks and recommends them highly. Just because one company does it wrong doesn't mean they all do.

Reef kid · Jan 5, 2016

gus6464 said:
Throwing T5 into this scenario makes no sense. T5's need to run at a specific temperature to be their most efficient. LEDs do not. Running a T5 too cold affects their performance greatly. Also if you think that the supposed 300W that these lights run at is being cooled properly by 2 fans and a PCB then I don't know what to tell you.

What 300w black box are you talking about? I'm just curious because I have never seen one and I searched around a lot.

gus6464 · Jan 5, 2016

Reef kid said:
What 300w black box are you talking about? I'm just curious because I have never seen one and I searched around a lot.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MarsAqua-Di...ull-Spectrum-Reef-Coral-LPS-SPS-/390885496493

Reef kid · Jan 5, 2016

gus6464 said:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MarsAqua-Di...ull-Spectrum-Reef-Coral-LPS-SPS-/390885496493

That one has three fans and is the same price and wattage as two smaller units so if you really were concerned about heat you could get two smaller units that would add up to the same wattage and have better coverage. There is always a way to come to a solution if you look hard enough.

ScubaSteve-21 · Jan 6, 2016

Reef kid said:
The fixtures I'm talking about are the 165w on eBay. They use 55 3w led chips and run them at 2w. The guys at my Lfs runs them on all of his tanks and recommends them highly. Just because one company does it wrong doesn't mean they all do.

95% of black boxes are made at the same place in China. If you think that company is better, check again...they put new lenses in them and a sticker or whatnot and call it their own...still a black box

pondman · Jan 6, 2016

I've heard to look for bridgelux LEDs they seem to be a good one

LostInTheDark · Jan 6, 2016

Reef kid said:
It seems to me this is only one company that is having issues, not every black box ever made.

I only have experience with OR but on my other threads several people have chimed in that it happens to there brands also. In my local reef club they consider it a part of maintenance to fix their Chinese boxes and they have become quite good at identifying the issues and fixing them.

Reef kid · Jan 6, 2016

Yes that may be true. But you can still get5 fixtures for the price of one radion, in fact far cheaper,and I would bet the black boxes if you had the spare parts would easily outlive the radion and could grow almost all of the corals.

Reef kid · Jan 6, 2016

Also can someone show me their source on the black boxes and where they are made. Specifically the factory, I would like to see this and read it just out of curiosity.

ScubaSteve-21 · Jan 8, 2016

Good luck finding that information lol...there are at least 10-20 "companies" putting their name on them...and they are all the exact same. See if they will tell you there source

Reef kid · Jan 8, 2016

ScubaSteve-21 said:
Good luck finding that information lol...there are at least 10-20 "companies" putting their name on them...and they are all the exact same. See if they will tell you there source

So you made an accusation about these companies. Not saying it's false, but I'd like to see proof of this.

ScubaSteve-21 · Jan 9, 2016

Uhhggg...hard to explain its not really an accusation I'm not damning any of those lights or the companies...it's hard to explain...often when 1 company gets the rights to sell an item in whatever country they will then start to make other companies their own variations or make subtle changes or just put their logo on it. Thus making more options for the market as the market asks for it...I know some lfs that have there own lights...which they had the manufacture change some things to meet there requirements and demands and sell it under a different name or no name at all

Brian wea · Jan 9, 2016

kissel= made in the usa and produces their leds in house.. support America!

Brian wea · Jan 9, 2016

I haven't had any problems out of my kissel. don't tell them I said this but if I had to do the purchase over.. id have paid more for it lol

Reef kid · Jan 9, 2016

ScubaSteve-21 said:
Uhhggg...hard to explain its not really an accusation I'm not damning any of those lights or the companies...it's hard to explain...often when 1 company gets the rights to sell an item in whatever country they will then start to make other companies their own variations or make subtle changes or just put their logo on it. Thus making more options for the market as the market asks for it...I know some lfs that have there own lights...which they had the manufacture change some things to meet there requirements and demands and sell it under a different name or no name at all

There are more major differences. I am switching back to them as I mentioned in a different thread. I have had one for over five months, assuming that since it was a black box they were all the same, I ordered another on that was the cheapest on eBay. To my surprise the entire housing was slightly larger with different slot formations on it, not to mention very, very different dimmer switches.

Reef kid · Jan 9, 2016

I doubt they change entire housings and mechanics from the same factory, it's just not ethical for them. Also the LEDs are somewhat different.

gus6464 · Jan 9, 2016

And yet they all use 25 cent diodes.

Reef kid · Jan 9, 2016

gus6464 said:
And yet they all use 25 cent diodes.

Listen,you can hate on them all you want. But they do work. Yes, they might not last as long. But for some people who don't have 2 grand to spend on light or even a tenth of that like me, they are the perfect solution. I have never had any problems with them, they grow coral great. So stop trying to hurt the products reputation. Have you ever used them?