Fallow should be 8 days (joking)

[Brian Kim]

Basically from all the literature I've read, in reef tank like temps, tomonts will generally hatch within 4-8 days....however there have been cases of tomonts not hatching for 28 days. There was one case under low temperatures, that tomonts hatched after 72 days...

Based on these numbers, if you go fallow for 10 days, it is extremely likely your tank will not have ich. 30 days and you are nearly guaranteed. 76 days seems to be an extra precaution as our tanks have higher temps...then again new strains of ich continue to be found so we never really know....IMO

Unlike freshwater ich, MI can thrive from temp range of 50 to 90 + degrees according to some research I've done

 

[Humblefish]

This thread jogged my memory from Petco (where else? ) a few years ago:

Customer: "All my fish died of ich. How long until I can put more fish in my tank?"

Employee: "You should be OK in a week or two."

Customer: "What do I do if it comes back?"

Employee: "We've got some stuff to help you shake that ich off."

At first I thought (or maybe hoped) they were talking about FW ich. Until the customer pointed to a type of clownfish he bought that started all the problems.

 

[revhtree Verified Admin]

LOL!

 

[melypr1985]

It's funny to be sure, but this is the exact reason I made a reference book for the employees at the LFS I work at. That way, if they dont know the answer they can look it up. It's all very organized with bright clear tabs to take them directly to the page they need with pictures and everything! They have no excuse to ever give bad advice about ich, velvet and many other things now. I hope I never hear a story like these from my store.

 

[omykiss001]

Checkout Table 1 here: http://atj.net.au/marineaquaria/marineich.html

The thing that's confusing is if at "reef temps" it only takes <28 days for ich to complete it's life cycle, then why are so many people experiencing fallow failures when going fishless for 72 days?

I have no idea the number of Crypto strains that exist, but the phylum Ciliophora currently contains 7200 known species. So it's my pet theory that there are strains of ich which actually take longer than 72 days for all the theronts to be released from their tomonts, regardless of temperature.

I don't even think this is a species issue. I think this is a way the parasite like so many others species hedge their bet for survival. If all resting stages were to hatch with the same time you get a case where all your eggs hatch at the same time and if the host is not there at that time your genetic line is now extinct. This is also what you see with most plants, their seeds have a high degree of variability on seed germination, this is often called the seed bank. Another way plants assure their survival. If all seeds germinate in the same time frame i.e. each spring, if you get a bad drought year, fire, flood, etc. then most or all of that population is wiped out and no one is left to carry the line to the next generation. I'm guessing, even though I have not seen any studies, even within a strain there may be a large variance on excystment time thus giving a higher chance the parasite will be able to propagate the next generation.

 

[omykiss001]

Checkout Table 1 here: http://atj.net.au/marineaquaria/marineich.html

Great table this should be a sticky if it's not already. Good info and references primary literature studies. Thumbs up!

 

[mcarroll]

It seems like some have excessive amounts of confidence in this fallow method - to the point of giving out very strict numbers here and there. It's a good method. It's a useful method. But I don't know if we can say more than that.

Species and strains do matter, it's in the literature. I believe @omykiss001 is also correct - life tends to "find a way". It's not a foolproof method.

A healthy fish is as close as you can get to foolproof.

And it's unfortunate that there hasn't been any mention of fish health, nutrition, stress reduction, etc, in this thread. If those are not accounted for, no amount of fallow, copper or ___ will make a difference in that fish's life. Staving off the inevitable is all it will amount to.

That is why people have "failed fallows". ( That's a nice alliteration! [emoji1])

It is also one of the reasons fish have immune systems and why we should be paying more attention to the immune system than we do. [emoji6][emoji106]

 

[Humblefish]

I don't even think this is a species issue. I think this is a way the parasite like so many others species hedge their bet for survival. If all resting stages were to hatch with the same time you get a case where all your eggs hatch at the same time and if the host is not there at that time your genetic line is now extinct. This is also what you see with most plants, their seeds have a high degree of variability on seed germination, this is often called the seed bank. Another way plants assure their survival. If all seeds germinate in the same time frame i.e. each spring, if you get a bad drought year, fire, flood, etc. then most or all of that population is wiped out and no one is left to carry the line to the next generation. I'm guessing, even though I have not seen any studies, even within a strain there may be a large variance on excystment time thus giving a higher chance the parasite will be able to propagate the next generation.

I agree.

I've got another scenario for you to ponder: Some collectors/wholesalers/LFS prophylactically treat their fish with copper. However, I think this logic would apply to any chemical treatment or even hyposalinity. So, this facility is treating with copper, but it's not being tested on a regular basis (or at all) so the Cu level drops below therapeutic. Waves & waves of ich/velvet are exposed (but not eradicated) to this sub-lethal dose of copper. Wouldn't it make sense that at some point these strain(s) of ich/velvet would build up an immunity to copper, and when the end user tries to treat using copper it ultimately fails? Even if dosed within the therapeutic range. Even worse, every fish that passes thru their system gets exposed to a now copper immune strain of ich/velvet. I also believe sub-therapeutic copper can mask symptoms of certain diseases until the fish is removed from copper. IMHO; Better not to use copper at all than at sub-therapeutic levels.

I have no proof of any of this. Just thinking out loud here.

 

[Brian Kim]

Checkout Table 1 here: http://atj.net.au/marineaquaria/marineich.html

The thing that's confusing is if at "reef temps" it only takes <28 days for ich to complete it's life cycle, then why are so many people experiencing fallow failures when going fishless for 72 days?

I have no idea the number of Crypto strains that exist, but the phylum Ciliophora currently contains 7200 known species. So it's my pet theory that there are strains of ich which actually take longer than 72 days for all the theronts to be released from their tomonts, regardless of temperature.

Good read Humble. That kind of made me wonder if it is safe to use those live sands collected from the ocean.

from the article


Can "Ich" be introduced with natural seawater?

One common argument against the use of natural seawater is the possibility of the introduction of parasites. While it is theoretically possible to introduce C. irritans, it is practically very unlikely owing to the nature of the life cycle of the parasite.

As discussed above, C. irritans spends very little time in the water column. After dropping off the host fish, trophonts head straight to the substrate to reproduce. This may take as little as 30 minutes but could extend to 24 hours (Cheung et al., 1979). Burgess and Matthews (1994b) found that significantly more trophonts left their host during darkness while fish are resting. This would greatly decrease the chances of trophonts being swept away from the substrate. These two factors combined almost rule out the possibility of trophonts being collected with natural seawater.

Excystment of theronts from tomonts also happens at night (Burgess and Matthews (1994b) and as theronts are only viable for a few hours, the chances of collecting theronts is low and those collected will most likely die before use in an aquarium.

 

[omykiss001]

I agree.

I've got another scenario for you to ponder: Some collectors/wholesalers/LFS prophylactically treat their fish with copper. However, I think this logic would apply to any chemical treatment or even hyposalinity. So, this facility is treating with copper, but it's not being tested on a regular basis (or at all) so the Cu level drops below therapeutic. Waves & waves of ich/velvet are exposed (but not eradicated) to this sub-lethal dose of copper. Wouldn't it make sense that at some point these strain(s) of ich/velvet would build up an immunity to copper, and when the end user tries to treat using copper it ultimately fails? Even if dosed within the therapeutic range. Even worse, every fish that passes thru their system gets exposed to a now copper immune strain of ich/velvet. I also believe sub-therapeutic copper can mask symptoms of certain diseases until the fish is removed from copper. IMHO; Better not to use copper at all than at sub-therapeutic levels.

I have no proof of any of this. Just thinking out loud here.

Very good point sir! It's still not well understood why copper is a good killing agent for some microbes, but with exposure to any selective force you may very well be correct some resistance could be formed by the parasite/ microbe. Especially if used at sublethal levels where the toughest ones survive to reproduce. Much like insects and Arsenic.

 

[melypr1985]

Very good point sir! It's still not well understood why copper is a good killing agent for some microbes, but with exposure to any selective force you may very well be correct some resistance could be formed by the parasite/ microbe. Especially if used at sublethal levels where the toughest ones survive to reproduce. Much like insects and Arsenic.

Ugh. This is all very alarming

 

[Humblefish]

Ugh. This is all very alarming

The good news is TTM would work even on a strain of ich that built up chemical/hypo resistance. Of all the QT methods I've tried, none equals the success rate of TTM. Just keep the TTM bioload light.

CP is best for treating velvet, and I doubt very much than many facilities use that - so little chance of building up resistance.

 

[cmcoker]

It's funny to be sure, but this is the exact reason I made a reference book for the employees at the LFS I work at. That way, if they dont know the answer they can look it up. It's all very organized with bright clear tabs to take them directly to the page they need with pictures and everything! They have no excuse to ever give bad advice about ich, velvet and many other things now. I hope I never hear a story like these from my store.

Maybe you should distribute that book through your Reef club to all the sponsor LFS..

 

[melypr1985]

Maybe you should distribute that book through your Reef club to all the sponsor LFS..

Maybe so. I know I would get the same reaction my coworkers gave me though. It was a look of in-credulousness and disgust. Though, I have to say I did see several flip through it while with a customer on the first day it was there.

 

[melypr1985]

The good news is TTM would work even on a strain of ich that built up chemical/hypo resistance. Of all the QT methods I've tried, none equals the success rate of TTM. Just keep the TTM bioload light.

CP is best for treating velvet, and I doubt very much than many facilities use that - so little chance of building up resistance.

Very true! A great thought especially since I went out and picked up some things for my first try at TTM today!

 

[omykiss001]

Very true! A great thought especially since I went out and picked up some things for my first try at TTM today!

Good luck! I found it easy as far as method goes, especially if you can make all the SW you need in a single batch, then you know the salinity is a match. The pain is the cleaning and doing it ASAP after the transfer to assure adequate dry time. Let us know how it goes for you.

 

[MatsReef]

Yup. Having the discipline to thoroughly clean immediately after a transfer is very important.

 

[Humblefish]

Yup. Having the discipline to thoroughly clean immediately after a transfer is very important.

^^Agreed. Immediately following the transfer, wipe the "old" tank/equipment down using vinegar and rinse thoroughly with tap water. This allows for maximum drying time, which is the sterilization process. Otherwise, you have to use bleach for quicker sterilization.

 

[mcarroll]

There's definitely nothing wrong with vinegar and drying, or bleach for that matter, but for what it's worth…

After the wipe down and cleaning, probably the quickest and maybe best sterilization would be a sequential spray of peroxide and vinegar.

I apologize but you will have to Google for the name of it. Supposedly that combo is one of the most potent surface disinfectant's out there, and as a bonus it degrades into harmless byproducts almost immediately. I think the reason it's not for sale in a bottle is because it cannot be bottled - it is created when the two sprays (one then the other) combine at the surface and works immediately. I'll find a link later if I can. [emoji106]

 

[melypr1985]

Thanks for the tips guys! I've almost gotten everything I need for it so I'll be ordering new fish soon.