Fish disease on the rise?

[HotRocks]

Im not sure about the United States but in Australia the LFS dose copper ( cupramine ) at .2ppm to their tanks. They obviously do This to stave off any disease from killing their stock but not enough to take the risk of copper poisioning. When the buyer gets the fish home and into a tank QT or otherwise without copper the parasite can then multiply and kill before we know it.

They do the same thing here in the states.

My favorite LFS store owner is well versed in disease and treats if fish are symptomatic. He admittedly runs cupramine in his systems at .25ppm and openly speaks about it. He would sell fully QTd fish, but the market here doesn't allow him. People would just drive up the street 5 miles and purchase fish elsewhere because his cost would be higher than everyone else. I understand that from a business standpoint.

So the safest way is to QT your own fish period. IMO.

 

[mandarin417]

I kept fish only tanks starting in 1977 without any losses. In the past two years I have lost so many fish that I almost left the hobby because I felt guilty about what was happening to these creatures. I won't add another fish without QT and treatment now. Humbelfish has been such a good generous and good resource for me.

 

[4FordFamily]

@HotRocks hit the nail on the head. It is several orders of magnitude worse now. People that have success without quarantine I have to question how many fish they’ve bought in the last couple years. For @HotRocks and I that number is probably 200.

We’ve seen uronema running rampant.(https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/uronema-becoming-big-problem-these-days-aside-from-chromis.529955/)

I never took this disease seriously.

Bacterial infections are out of control. Until the past year I didn’t take them seriously either, as I’d never had a suspected loss due to them. For uronema, probably the same timeframe.

I didn’t see flukes often until the past few years. My fish didn’t scratch or have tattered fins or damage around their heads. It was out there, but not nearly as common, IMO.

Velvet is every bit as common as ich these days. Brook is more common these days.

Throwing fish in today without throwing the book at them is not going to end well long-term. Even short-term. I stocked a 180 and a 125 full of fish in 2016 and it was already very bad. Velvet was everywhere and killing many of my fish before I figured out they didn’t all show spots. This is what forced me to accept quarantine. Unfortunately these two tanks full of fish were lost to a power outage on vacation in February 2017.

This unfortunately put us in a unique situation where I’ve been restocking fish and with several tanks between @HotRocks and I and the stocking of my 500 gallon tank (see my signature for the build thread) we’ve had the unique experience of ordering an unbelievable amount of fish. We experienced losses from one ailment and then they hit us over and over each time something different. With the help of @Humblefish we dialed it in and have a system now that works well. I can’t stress enough how important @Humblefish was in this process/progression. He and @HotRocks have helped transform the future of this industry, IMO. I say @HotRocks because 6 months ago I quit quarantining because @HotRocks was crazy enough to take over. I was losing fish to uronema and bacterial infections within 24 hours of symptoms for three batches. I didn’t have the time to mess with it, @HotRocks stepped in and showed he could build on what I had learned/done. The three of us have been a team on this ever since!

This new system treats ich, velvet, flukes, brook, uronema, and even some bacterial infections. However, the method shown on the link (below) is our “old method”. We will be revising it soon (within 7-14 days) to include how we attacked brook and uronema once we are done testing. By the time it’s released, we will have tested it on at least 100 surviving fish. It’s running 90-95% success right now.

Here’s the current ich, velvet, flukes, and some bacterial infection protocol (the “old method”):

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/my-current-qt-process.483371/

Sorry for the info and link dump, I saw all of the thread views and figured it might help others to have everything in the same place.

 

[SteveC]

4fordFamily,
I’m only new here, and I already can tell the dedication you guys have, i dips me lid to you. It seems to me the problem is worse for you than it is here at the moment. It’s definately a big problem that needs to be fixed. I’m not sure about people not prepared to pay a bit extra for a healthy fish, certainly those that are knowledgeable as the initial cost of a healthy fish is recouped many times over the cost of a cheap fish with potential disease that could wipe out every fish you own. It would be a very cheap fish then!

 

[JRAD]

I would definitely pay more for a properly qt’ed fish. I would still observe it for a month before adding to my display tank. I am tired of all the sick fish!

 

[svogun]

I couldn't agree more. I've been in the hobby for 25 years and the losses in the past few years (in QT) are significant. Nothing goes in my tank unless its fully quarantined (including inverts).

 

[dwest]

I couldn't agree more. I've been in the hobby for 25 years and the losses in the past few years (in QT) are significant. Nothing goes in my tank unless its fully quarantined (including inverts).

Same here. 25 plus years buying fish. I had my most unsuccessful quarantine experience ever in 2018. Since then I’ve done the quarantine procedure that Ford mentions above with great success.

 

[4FordFamily]

4fordFamily,
I’m only new here, and I already can tell the dedication you guys have, i dips me lid to you. It seems to me the problem is worse for you than it is here at the moment. It’s definately a big problem that needs to be fixed. I’m not sure about people not prepared to pay a bit extra for a healthy fish, certainly those that are knowledgeable as the initial cost of a healthy fish is recouped many times over the cost of a cheap fish with potential disease that could wipe out every fish you own. It would be a very cheap fish then!

People vote with their wallets, I think that we are slowly turning a corner where there is more and more demand for properly QT’d fish. I agree it makes all the economic sense in the world to protect your existing and future livestock but the instant gratification for the lowest dollar prevails more often than not, it seems.

Thanks for the kind words, we try.

 

[MrsBugmaster]

I have been in the hobby for 10+ years and see a big increase in fish disease . A little over a year ago I lost my entire tank of fish, and I do qt everything. My loss was slowly over 8 or 9 months though. I posted on here and no one could figure out what it was. I even too my fish to an exotic vet. She found a couple things but could not ID it for sure. One she thought to be fish pox, or better know as fish herpes virus. Which she said can slowly kill the fish, but some can live with it. It is contagious! She believed that is what killed my tank. There are the usually diseases and then there also new things popping up too. How do you treat something if you don't know what it is??

I am still in the process of slowly restocking my 180 gal tank. Some days I feel like giving it all up because I feel so bad for all the fish that die and I am contributing to this by buying the fish. That is part of the reason it is taking me so long to restock my tank. Just not sure if I should keep doing it and being part of the problem. To me they are not just fish, but a living creature that is in my care. And yes, I become attached to them.

 

[ReefWithCare]

A number of people I know just stopped buying fish and just are stocking corals. They say their success is way up as soon as they stopped buying fish. A few of them tried to QT - but they constantly lose fish in QT for various reasons ‍. Lot of them have smaller tanks.

Biggest issue for them have been diseased designer clownfish.

 

[Mayerlyn A]

@HotRocks hit the nail on the head. It is several orders of magnitude worse now. People that have success without quarantine I have to question how many fish they’ve bought in the last couple years. For @HotRocks and I that number is probably 200.

We’ve seen uronema running rampant.(https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/uronema-becoming-big-problem-these-days-aside-from-chromis.529955/)

I never took this disease seriously.

Bacterial infections are out of control. Until the past year I didn’t take them seriously either, as I’d never had a suspected loss due to them. For uronema, probably the same timeframe.

I didn’t see flukes often until the past few years. My fish didn’t scratch or have tattered fins or damage around their heads. It was out there, but not nearly as common, IMO.

Velvet is every bit as common as ich these days. Brook is more common these days.

Throwing fish in today without throwing the book at them is not going to end well long-term. Even short-term. I stocked a 180 and a 125 full of fish in 2016 and it was already very bad. Velvet was everywhere and killing many of my fish before I figured out they didn’t all show spots. This is what forced me to accept quarantine. Unfortunately these two tanks full of fish were lost to a power outage on vacation in February 2017.

This unfortunately put us in a unique situation where I’ve been restocking fish and with several tanks between @HotRocks and I and the stocking of my 500 gallon tank (see my signature for the build thread) we’ve had the unique experience of ordering an unbelievable amount of fish. We experienced losses from one ailment and then they hit us over and over each time something different. With the help of @Humblefish we dialed it in and have a system now that works well. I can’t stress enough how important @Humblefish was in this process/progression. He and @HotRocks have helped transform the future of this industry, IMO. I say @HotRocks because 6 months ago I quit quarantining because @HotRocks was crazy enough to take over. I was losing fish to uronema and bacterial infections within 24 hours of symptoms for three batches. I didn’t have the time to mess with it, @HotRocks stepped in and showed he could build on what I had learned/done. The three of us have been a team on this ever since!

This new system treats ich, velvet, flukes, brook, uronema, and even some bacterial infections. However, the method shown on the link (below) is our “old method”. We will be revising it soon (within 7-14 days) to include how we attacked brook and uronema once we are done testing. By the time it’s released, we will have tested it on at least 100 surviving fish. It’s running 90-95% success right now.

Here’s the current ich, velvet, flukes, and some bacterial infection protocol (the “old method”):

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/my-current-qt-process.483371/

Sorry for the info and link dump, I saw all of the thread views and figured it might help others to have everything in the same place.

Thank for this .

 

[Paul B]

I don't see fish being sicker today than 40 years ago, but that's just me.

. Most people are always going to buy whatever is the cheapest. Doesn't matter if its a TV or a fish.

I like to wait for the fish in the store to be covered in spots, flukes or velvet covered flukes. (which are kind of nice looking).Then I offer the store owner five bucks for the fish, cure the thing and have a nice cheap, healthy fish.

Then I go out to dinner and have a nice glass of Pino Noir.

I honestly don't know how many people stay in this hobby if you are having so much trouble with diseases. Maybe my fish are dying like flies and I just don't notice it, I could be senile. I need Humble to come over here and check me and my tank. The fish could all have flukes or flounders and I can't see it.

 

[4FordFamily]

I don't see fish being sicker today than 40 years ago, but that's just me.



I like to wait for the fish in the store to be covered in spots, flukes or velvet covered flukes. (which are kind of nice looking).Then I offer the store owner five bucks for the fish, cure the thing and have a nice cheap, healthy fish.

Then I go out to dinner and have a nice glass of Pino Noir.

I honestly don't know how many people stay in this hobby if you are having so much trouble with diseases. Maybe my fish are dying like flies and I just don't notice it, I could be senile. I need Humble to come over here and check me and my tank. The fish could all have flukes or flounders and I can't see it.

Still waiting to hear how that Achilles tang works out in your tank without quarantine. .

 

[Tanglover11]

I have gotten to know one of the local fish store owners in my city ( Highlands Ranch Colorado). She Quarantines all fish and medicates as needed before she sells them. But the cost has to be adjusted to accommodate the extra tanks , fish loss ect. However, if you read reviews on search engines sites one of the biggest complaints is about her prices. So many people are ignorant about fish diseases and just want a cheap fish. They play Russian roulette with their aquariums

 

[ReefWithCare]

I have gotten to know one of the local fish store owners in my city ( Highlands Ranch Colorado). She Quarantines all fish and medicates as needed before she sells them. But the cost has to be adjusted to accommodate the extra tanks , fish loss ect. However, if you read reviews on search engines sites one of the biggest complaints is about her prices. So many people are ignorant about fish diseases and just want a cheap fish. They play Russian roulette with their aquariums

Cheap fish - but they don't mind paying for a $3000+ Aurora fixture, a $250+ Kessil Fuge light, $800+ on Radions, or $3000+ on a slick GeoReef's Sump .

Tech Toys > Life

Let's pull a quote xD:


"over priced everything!! I get you have to make profit but why is a blue hippo tang the size of a quarter 90 dollars and 45 everywhere else? And $180 for a purple tang that was also extremely small? Everything in that store is a rip off and the quality is not there. These are fish, not hand crafted collectables. Anybody can sell fish, there is nothing they do to justify paying double for a fish. Screw this place."

;Sour smh

 

[Decat]

Seamonster, i think you may have missed the point of the entire thread

No, I think that is the point exactly. Although it is really sad where we are with receiving sick and infected fish, quarantining and caring for sick fish has become a new great pleasure of the hobby. Seeing my new Blue Face Angel loose sight in one eye with Flukes in quarantine, seeing them drop off in the fresh water baths, and then wiping out all the others with PraziPro and then following up with CopperSafe for a month to make sure no parasites, and getting him eating well (about a year ago) was an amazing experience. I learned a lot, and feel a great bond with healing and caring for that fish. Now when a fish finally makes it into one of my display tanks, I already have quite an attachment because I have treated the fish for many know issues. If someone doesn't have the time to set up quarantines they should probably not have a tank in the first place. When I got back in to the hobby a few years ago, I tried not having quarantine, but quickly lost that battle. Quarantine is just a required part of the hobby now. Don't know why people are still complaining, learn and move on. All local fish stores here keep their fish in Copper, because they know if they don't they will not last long.

 

[PedroYoung]

I'm curious as to what effect (if any) the increased availability of captive raised species might have on the disease issue. I know selection is still limited, but can you buy captive raised fish that aren't held in systems that also have wild caught specimens?

 

[K7BMG]

Though new to the reef tank world, I have had fish tanks off and on since I was a kid.
Born in 61 and first tank around 6 or 7 with my dad, a 10G fresh water. Some of the fondest memories I had with him.

But even back then I remember the lessons, Never walk into the store and walk out with a fish, Observe the fish for a day or two before you buy it, and bring it home. I remember always being concerned that the fish would be sold by the time my dad would let me bring it home. That happened several times but the rule was the rule. More than one lesson being taught to me here.
For some reason we would always go fish shopping a few days before the new livestock was to arrive. Never figured that one out until later years. My LFS stocked up every two weeks so obviously what we bought had survived at least 10 days at the store already.

The LFS had many customers that did this and they started to allow customers to put a few bucks down and put a hold on certain more expensive fish. This did two things, the LFS could take the fish and medicate or do whatever it took to make the fish LOOK and ACT healthy, but it also gave the LFS a REAL reason to keep and stock healthy fish.
Quarantine was sort of a newer concept but, recommended back then, and there was a plethora of fish cures on the LFS shelves.

Today as I am learning about reefing I see a common thought in almost every thread or topic in relation to aquariums over all, and that is PATENENCE. In todays society its all about instant gratification. My point is, are the proper steps being implemented in the first place?

I see more and more we as a society in whole that we expect others to make sure of certain things. Like putting the responsibility on the LFS to only provide happy healthy livestock, and its all their fault. NOPE its our fault for not following the steps.

Do I think there are more sick fish today than yesterday, no not really.
I think we have a better understanding and can detect more diseases today than ever, so maybe its the recognition over the quantity of.

 

[4FordFamily]

I have been in the hobby for 10+ years and see a big increase in fish disease . A little over a year ago I lost my entire tank of fish, and I do qt everything. My loss was slowly over 8 or 9 months though. I posted on here and no one could figure out what it was. I even too my fish to an exotic vet. She found a couple things but could not ID it for sure. One she thought to be fish pox, or better know as fish herpes virus. Which she said can slowly kill the fish, but some can live with it. It is contagious! She believed that is what killed my tank. There are the usually diseases and then there also new things popping up too. How do you treat something if you don't know what it is??

I am still in the process of slowly restocking my 180 gal tank. Some days I feel like giving it all up because I feel so bad for all the fish that die and I am contributing to this by buying the fish. That is part of the reason it is taking me so long to restock my tank. Just not sure if I should keep doing it and being part of the problem. To me they are not just fish, but a living creature that is in my care. And yes, I become attached to them.

Well I’m glad you’re still fighting the good fight, and glad to know you personally.

We can make a difference by helping others quarantine and save their fish in the short run. In the long run we can hopefully increase demand and increase pressure on the distribution system and wholesalers to treat fish better and improve the health of their fish. Maybe we all do a little to improve demand for quality quarantined fish. That’s significant change. Maybe we can be a part of that.

 

[Paul B]

Still waiting to hear how that Achilles tang works out in your tank without quarantine. .

As soon as I find one, I will throw it in. I hope I can find one already sick. But when he gets big, you have to take him off my hands.

If someone doesn't have the time to set up quarantines they should probably not have a tank in the first place.

Excuse me!!

 

[4FordFamily]

I'm curious as to what effect (if any) the increased availability of captive raised species might have on the disease issue. I know selection is still limited, but can you buy captive raised fish that aren't held in systems that also have wild caught specimens?

I can only speak my hypothesis, but captive raised fish can still infect other fish, particularly if they share water with other fish in wholesale/distribution facilities. Theoretically, they need not see as many systems, and theoretically they may be better able to cope with disease given they shouldn’t have such a weakened immune system.

But if they carry these diseases (and won’t show symptoms) to other fish that have been through collection and the whole “nine yards” they can be effective “Typhoid Marys”. I’d still (and do) quarantine captive raised specimens the same as any other for this reason.

In my opinion, diseases like uronema and bacterial infections and other parasites are perhaps not any more deadly by themselves stand-alone — but rather the condition of the fish we receive is far worse than before, I call many “zombies”, so the ailments have a huge upper hand due to the poor overall immune health.

No @Paul B I am talking we are beyond feeding high quality foods, the fish are a train wreck. That said, people like @Paul B have reminded us the importance of maintaining a strong immune system via quality foods, vitamins, and good conditions. I only disagree with him regarding the need to quarantine fish, but that’s due to the sheer numbers of fish we’ve purchased recently and the types of fish we keep are completely different and thus require different husbandry. We must remember quarantine and optimal nutrition are not mutually exclusive we need to do BOTH.

The name of the game today is apparently to ship the fish to us ASAP before it can die. The goal seems to be to get us a fish that’s “breathing”. This really makes our jobs more difficult. I believe this is why we are seeing bacterial infections and uronema so numerous — and in types of fish not commonly attributed with them. Chromis have had uronema issues since I entered the hobby 14-14 years ago. Some butterflies (more and more over the years) would get it as well. Now it’s more and more common on angels and even wrasse.

I never treated or cared that I had uronema in my display tanks because it only killed chromis. Now after I’ve seen what it will do these days within 12-36 hours on angels, wrasse, butterflies, and others— I am not taking chances any longer.

 

[SteveC]

Is there anyone here that can Comment as a collector/wholesaler/ distributor. It would be great to hear the thoughts from your side.
A great insight on how you all feel from our side of the coin.