Fish disease on the rise?

[Fastpitch]

Because noobs need a step by step guide to follow./

As a noob.....Seldom has anything truer been said.

I actually like to QT. I dont know why.

 

[robert]

@Humblefish - I would never say a diatom filter is a silver bullet, but rather a very effective tool to achieve a long recognized but often overlooked reef-keeping principle - Dilution.
I think Paul also is trying to emphasized another long recognized but often underappreciated principle - nutrition. The oxydator, an H2O2 delivery system, as I understand it, is also a tool and not a method. I don't think anyone - anywhere has refereed to these as silver bullets. Tools and principles have to applied appropriately to be effective. I'm sure you would agree quarantine is not a silver bullet if not applied appropriately.

@4FordFamily - I, like Paul have found through years and many, many tanks that I too can skip traditional quarantine without loss and for the long-haul. I do keep many (mostly) Tangs including the dreaded Achilles and Powders. I got into tangs while running a coral propagation system - tangs were workhorses in my systems keeping nuisance algae in check. Keeping corals and tangs together, I had to find a way to beat ich and velvet without the luxury of medication available to keepers of fish only systems. Dilution was the principle I found which made this possible. Not just in one system, but in every system I have set up. I can't claim this discovery - the use of DE filtration is used extensively in aquaculture and public aquariums. How it works is simple and well understood. Ciliates and dinoflagellates - and that include many diseases other than ich and velvet - and not just for fish, but for every other bit of livestock we keep in our systems, are big and can easily be caught in the most basic of filtration. Its a tool - and like every tool - must be used correctly.

Copper works - CP works - but these hurt the fish and are arguably cruel- why are you still using them? If you want to cry - visit the fish forum on this board - the method of quarantine and fallow fail all the time following the methods you prescribe - you would agree I think that a bit of expertise and practice is required to master these tools as well.

Maybe you've tried filtration (dilution) - or read of someone who has tried and failed.

Just means you or they didn't know how to use the tool.

As I said - I do keep tangs - and do not find quarantine necessary - (not for ciliates and dinoflagellates or for many other parasites with a free swimming stage) - and I do and have put infected, but otherwise healthy fish directly into my DT. Now ask yourself - what would in you do is you woke up tomorrow and found Ich in your tank? It will happen to many. Tear down, medicate, hospital tanks, quarantine tanks and let your DT sit for 76 days. What if its not ich or velvet but brook or uronema - same but with bleach?

I don't think you could go 40+ years - do you?

@paul - I can't practice your methods but you've got me thinking and I can apply some of them to my system. Thanks for getting me hunting for new stuff in the right direction.

 

[4FordFamily]

@Humblefish - I would never say a diatom filter is a silver bullet, but rather a very effective tool to achieve a long recognized but often overlooked reef-keeping principle - Dilution.
I think Paul also is trying to emphasized another long recognized but often underappreciated principle - nutrition. The oxydator, an H2O2 delivery system, as I understand it, is also a tool and not a method. I don't think anyone - anywhere has refereed to these as silver bullets. Tools and principles have to applied appropriately to be effective. I'm sure you would agree quarantine is not a silver bullet if not applied appropriately.

@4FordFamily - I, like Paul have found through years and many, many tanks that I too can skip traditional quarantine without loss and for the long-haul. I do keep many (mostly) Tangs including the dreaded Achilles and Powders. I got into tangs while running a coral propagation system - tangs were workhorses in my systems keeping nuisance algae in check. Keeping corals and tangs together, I had to find a way to beat ich and velvet without the luxury of medication available to keepers of fish only systems. Dilution was the principle I found which made this possible. Not just in one system, but in every system I have set up. I can't claim this discovery - the use of DE filtration is used extensively in aquaculture and public aquariums. How it works is simple and well understood. Ciliates and dinoflagellates - and that include many diseases other than ich and velvet - and not just for fish, but for every other bit of livestock we keep in our systems, are big and can easily be caught in the most basic of filtration. Its a tool - and like every tool - must be used correctly.

Copper works - CP works - but these hurt the fish and are arguably cruel- why are you still using them? If you want to cry - visit the fish forum on this board - the method of quarantine and fallow fail all the time following the methods you prescribe - you would agree I think that a bit of expertise and practice is required to master the those tools.

Maybe you've tried filtration (dilution) - or read of someone who has tried and failed.

Just means you or they didn't know how to use the tool.

As I said - I do keep tangs - and do not find quarantine necessary - (not for ciliates and dinoflagellates or for many other parasites with a free swimming stage) - and I do and have put infected, but otherwise healthy fish directly into my DT. Now ask yourself - what would in you do is you woke up tomorrow and found Ich in your tank? It will happen to many. Tear down, medicate, hospital tanks, quarantine tanks and let your DT sit for 76 days. What if its not ich or velvet but brook or uronema - same but with bleach?

I don't think you could go 40+ years - do you?

@paul - I can't practice your methods but you've got me thinking and I can apply some of them to my system. Thanks for getting me hunting for new stuff in the right direction.

Your experience is the exception to the rule, I’m not saying it can’t be done. I also love to see photos of everyone’s tanks— it brings it all together for us.

 

[robert]

Your experience is the exception to the rule, I’m not saying it can’t be done. I also love to see photos of everyone’s tanks— it brings it all together for us.

Did you check the information tab in my profile -
I have some videos on youtube you may like...There's Black, Achilles and Powder Blues dancing in some and yellows out working...

 

[ReefWithCare]

Did you check the information tab in my profile -
I have some videos on youtube you may like...

What is diluation and DE Filtration?

 

[robert]

Your experience is the exception to the rule, I’m not saying it can’t be done. I also love to see photos of everyone’s tanks— it brings it all together for us.

only in the hobby - not in the public aquarium or in aquaculture. In the hobby we never, and still don't have access to equipment suitable for the task and hence never developed the techniques to utilized filtration effectively - we've kind of demonized it - nitrate factories and all. But my results are reproducible - I can do it over and over. Not 1 tank for 40+ years - but multiple tanks over a decade.

 

[Humblefish]

@Humblefish - I would never say a diatom filter is a silver bullet, but rather a very effective tool to achieve a long recognized but often overlooked reef-keeping principle - Dilution.
I think Paul also is trying to emphasized another long recognized but often underappreciated principle - nutrition. The oxydator, an H2O2 delivery system, as I understand it, is also a tool and not a method. I don't think anyone - anywhere has refereed to these as silver bullets. Tools and principles have to applied appropriately to be effective. I'm sure you would agree quarantine is not a silver bullet if not applied appropriately.

Silver bullet, tool, principle... we're mincing words. The point I'm trying to drive home is newbies have no idea what you're talking about when you say just use a diatom filter. Which make/model? How do you plumb it into your system? What modifications are needed? What about maintenance? You get my point.

I've written step by step guides/tutorials on how to quarantine, proper usage of medications, etc. If you want people to stop using these "cruel" treatments then provide a better way (in detail.)

 

[HotRocks]

only in the hobby - not in the public aquarium or in aquaculture. In the hobby we never, and still don't have access to equipment suitable for the task and hence never developed the techniques to utilized filtration effectively - we've kind of demonized it - nitrate factories and all. But my results are reproducible - I can do it over and over. Not 1 tank for 40+ years - but multiple tanks over a decade.

@robert, per your last post. While I agree wholeheartedly the disease forum is a sad place to be, people are just trying to help. Like @Humblefish recommended (which is a great idea) earlier in this thread. I think it would be beneficial if all of you who are anti-QT would start threads with all the details regarding your systems so someone wanting to try it has a fair shot. We can somehow group them all together.

For the record, there are equally as many threads with people in the disease forum who are struggling to QT properly, that have an entire DT of non QTd fish getting wiped with velvet or whatever, due to lack of QT from the beginning, or in your case the lack of the proper filtration, dilution equipment etc. So then they are in a rushed panic state, don't have any of the proper "tools" on hand to deal with it. It's a lose lose situation.

So if they want to go the non QT route they should have implemented the proper tools to begin with or they wouldn't have gotten into the terrible situation they ended up with. How are they to know to do so if the majority of that info isn't right in front of them?

I mean you can't go to Petco and buy an oxydator, or any of the equipment you all use.

Admittedly you can't get most of the meds I/we use or recommend at Petco either. The difference is there is thread after thread in the disease sticky of what methods to use, what meds to buy, where to order some of the more specialized things, how much to dose, etc. However we have one LFS here in town that you can get most of what we use or a close equivalent in an emergency situation. I know that's not the case everywhere.

I am pro-qt, that doesn't mean we can't agree to disagree and do what's right for this community, the hobby in general. Provide clear detailed options, then the decision can be made accordingly by the hobbyists seeking what route to take.

 

[robert]

I respect what you all try to do in the disease forum and I too try and pitch in when I can.

I've provided links and plenty of discussion material - I provided the last citation regarding ich's ability to persist in hypoxic zones to Humblefish - but first I have to get past the naysayers who have their consensus opinion and a cheering section. You who run that forum need to keep group think in check - not encourage it. Search my posts and contributions. Then come back.

To take liberties with a quote from a great American "Its not that we reefers are ignorant, its just that we know so much that isn't so!

 

[robert]

Silver bullet, tool, principle... we're mincing words. The point I'm trying to drive home is newbies have no idea what you're talking about when you say just use a diatom filter. Which make/model? How do you plumb it into your system? What modifications are needed? What about maintenance? You get my point.

I've written step by step guides/tutorials on how to quarantine, proper usage of medications, etc. If you want people to stop using these "cruel" treatments then provide a better way (in detail.)

Words are important - many if not you are savy enough to equate "silver bullets" with "snake oil". I took offense.

I don't claim expertise - there are no tags under my name claiming any - I give the best advice I can, if I can, when I can - but those that do claim expertise should not deny their responsibility to be informed. I gave you my rational and research - you had not even read Burgess at the time.

You said you were going to test DE filtration - several years ago I believe -
Did you?

 

[robert]

Paul shared his experience keeping a tank for 40+ years - that's no small feat. I don't pretend to understand how much of his method really works - but I believe him and am looking for explanations - I've already learned a lot just by keeping and open mind and critically trying to challenge his ideas - It had never really occurred to me that a fishes immune system requires a bacterial consortium to function properly. Now its just so obvious. I provided a reference link somewhere above in this thread that explains it quite thoroughly - what is known and what is still unknown.

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Microbiota_and_the_Teleost_Immune_System.pdf

What good is offering him a forum if your going to backhand his experience or those of others who have something to share. I expected probative questions, especially from the experts. Not condescension.

 

[robert]

Disease is on the rise because our reliance on mechanical filtration has declined while the use of drugs, and copper have increased in the supply chain.

If I had the choice of a perfectly "clean" tang that I knew had been kept in copper of an otherwise healthy fish with a little ich - I'd take the fish with ich. I can fix that. I cannot see, nor can I fix that the gill, liver and immune damage the others cause.

 

[Humblefish]

You said you were going to test it - several years ago I believe -
Did you?

I currently have no time/space for a "personal tank". Every aquarium I own is being used for quarantine, experimentation or retail space. I know you find that to be "very weird". But I've got a 75 gal sitting in storage that I plan on setting up in my home after we move this summer. I plan on installing a DE or oxydator (maybe both?), and just dropping fish in without the benefit of QT. See what happens. It would be helpful to have a thorough guide to follow so I know I'm not missing any important steps.

What good is offering him a forum if your going to backhand his experience or those of others who have something to share. I expected probative questions, especially from the experts. Not condescension.

@Paul B Have I ever backhanded your experience??

See @robert, this is why I have a hard time taking you seriously. If you knew anything about my interactions with Paul, you would know that I have great respect for him and his methods. Sure, we disagree on a lot but we do so in a respectful manner. With you, on the other hand, it's always hostility, hurling insults, etc. Even when I extend an olive branch.

 

[robert]

Humble fish and I walk into a pet shop and are both aghast at a collection of puppies absolutely dripping with fleas.

"Drench them with this flea powder" says Humblefish, "and never let another flea into this shop - ever!"
"Get a vacuum cleaner" I say, "and vacuum daily".

One approach is sustainable. Which is it?

 

[robert]

I tend to get a little hostile to an approach to disease in our tanks that sacrifices the creatures we care for when I *know* there are better options.
You feel that hostility is directed at you because you know that by referring to alternatives as purported "silver bullets" your giving short shrift to these methods and tools without having done due diligence.
We disagree on approach. To the extent we both feel vested in our own ideas and experiences, there will always be a perception of hostility even if its not intended personally.

We can discuss ideas - I welcome that but please - words do matter - how you portray another's ideas needs to be respectful. Especially if you've never actually taken their approach.

 

[Paul B]

@Paul B Have I ever backhanded your experience??

See @robert, this is why I have a hard time taking you seriously. If you knew anything about my interactions with Paul, you would know that I have great respect for him and his methods. Sure, we disagree on a lot but we do so in a respectful manner. With you, on the other hand, it's always hostility, hurling insults, etc. Even when I extend an olive branch.[/QUOTE]

Humble, I think if you were here, you would try to slap me silly.

But if I had to leave my tank with anybody for an extended time it would be you.

I have another idea because I am really trying to help people keep fish with no diseases no matter what system you use. I am sorry, I have to use the "N" word. Noobs. For you noobs, a diatom filter is just a canister filter that uses diatom powder in it to filter the water. It is nothing magical. The powder is composed of dead diatoms that are full of holes so the filtration is about the best there is. The filters are made by Vortex and others and are about $125.00 plus the powder that you can get in a swimming pool supplier on Amazon for a tenth of the cost Vortex charges for it. You can not use food grade diatom powder.

But parasites are much larger than the pores in a diatom filter so they get trapped and then you backflush the thing and add more powder. The filter is not designed to be used constantly.

But it is great if for instance you have some new fish and you want to quarantine them or just observe them for a few days before you add them. If you run a diatom filter on their tank, any parasites in the water and the ones that come off the fish to reproduce will be sucked into the diatom filter so they can not re infect the fish.
If I bought a fish with parasites and I wanted to cure it. I may put it in a hospital tank with a diatom filter and it would be cured very fast as I have done it dozens of times. No, it is not a magic bullet but it will remove parasites, in a kind of bare tank in no time so it is a tool, not a panacea.
It will not remove any medications so copper can be used if you like.

Here is a picture of a very Buff Male Model holding a Diatom filter. I use it on my reef a few times a year because it is very powerful and I like to clean out the pores in the rocks and stir up my gravel. I use a reverse undergravel filter. (OK stop laughing now).

You do not want to run it to long in a reef because it will remove all the microscope food and pods that feed the fish and corals. But if used correctly, it is a fantastic tool. I have been using them almost fifty years. They are not built very well so I found a model that is much better that I use, but I would have to find the link. If you have any questions, let me know.

Humble, see, I wrote that without mentioning anything controversial and I even think you would agree with it.

 

[ReefWithCare]

@Paul B Have I ever backhanded your experience??

See @robert, this is why I have a hard time taking you seriously. If you knew anything about my interactions with Paul, you would know that I have great respect for him and his methods. Sure, we disagree on a lot but we do so in a respectful manner. With you, on the other hand, it's always hostility, hurling insults, etc. Even when I extend an olive branch.

Humble, I think if you were here, you would try to slap me silly.

But if I had to leave my tank with anybody for an extended time it would be you.

I have another idea because I am really trying to help people keep fish with no diseases no matter what system you use. I am sorry, I have to use the "N" word. Noobs. For you noobs, a diatom filter is just a canister filter that uses diatom powder in it to filter the water. It is nothing magical. The powder is composed of dead diatoms that are full of holes so the filtration is about the best there is. The filters are made by Vortex and others and are about $125.00 plus the powder that you can get in a swimming pool supplier on Amazon for a tenth of the cost Vortex charges for it. You can not use food grade diatom powder.

But parasites are much larger than the pores in a diatom filter so they get trapped and then you backflush the thing and add more powder. The filter is not designed to be used constantly.

But it is great if for instance you have some new fish and you want to quarantine them or just observe them for a few days before you add them. If you run a diatom filter on their tank, any parasites in the water and the ones that come off the fish to reproduce will be sucked into the diatom filter so they can not re infect the fish.
If I bought a fish with parasites and I wanted to cure it. I may put it in a hospital tank with a diatom filter and it would be cured very fast as I have done it dozens of times. No, it is not a magic bullet but it will remove parasites, in a kind of bare tank in no time so it is a tool, not a panacea.
It will not remove any medications so copper can be used if you like.

Here is a picture of a very Buff Male Model holding a Diatom filter. I use it on my reef a few times a year because it is very powerful and I like to clean out the pores in the rocks and stir up my gravel. I use a reverse undergravel filter. (OK stop laughing now).

You do not want to run it to long in a reef because it will remove all the microscope food and pods that feed the fish and corals. But if used correctly, it is a fantastic tool. I have been using them almost fifty years. They are not built very well so I found a model that is much better that I use, but I would have to find the link. If you have any questions, let me know.

Humble, see, I wrote that without mentioning anything controversial and I even think you would agree with it.

[/QUOTE]

What are your thoughts about the marineland magnum and new internal filter that you can use the diatom accessory with? Both are much cheaper than the vertex.

 

[Paul B]

I don't know anything about them, but I like the idea of having a hose on the thing to aim the hose at places I want to powerwash. If I were just going to use it for parasite removal, I would assume any diatom filter would be fine.

 

[Paul B]

Robert, I have quoted this article quite a few times and it does state that fish need an input of bacteria and pathogens. Many people can't yet grasp that concept as it is kind of new to mainstream fishkeeping. But I feel it will catch on eventually.

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Microbiota_and_the_Teleost_Immune_System.pdf

 

[4FordFamily]

I tend to get a little hostile to an approach to disease in our tanks that sacrifices the creatures we care for when I *know* there are better options.
You feel that hostility is directed at you because you know that by referring to alternatives as purported "silver bullets" your giving short shrift to these methods and tools without having done due diligence.
We disagree on approach. To the extent we both feel vested in our own ideas and experiences, there will always be a perception of hostility even if its not intended personally.

We can discuss ideas - I welcome that but please - words do matter - how you portray another's ideas needs to be respectful. Especially if you've never actually taken their approach.

I continue to read about your experience but see little of it for us all to see? We document our experiences with photos, videos, hypothesis, trials and tribulations, etc. In the past year we’ve “mastered” a quarantine process that’s easily repeatable. We just stocked a 500 gallon wall tank full of tangs and angels and difficult to keep fish that many have issues with singly, let alone en masse. Humblefish, I, and many others have said that we have had old fish, too, that went through treatment and quarantine.

How many fish have you purchased in the past few years? We can compare our collective experience and let readers decide for themselves.

Difference of opinion is welcomed. Diversity of thought is best for everyone in any hobby, organization, government, etc. Challenging the status quo is what I feel we do as well. I used to be anti QT as recently as 4-5 years ago, if you recall.

Our new combined “method” features less than 50% of the time previously cited for copper (with another sterile tank for observation), more reliable testing methods discovered by @HotRocks so as not to overdose (before it as inevitable), and even altenratives to copper — and is much more comprehensive. Our process and a copious dose of the “fruit of our labor” will be for others to see and make their own judgments early next week.

Most things we take as humans for ailments in low doses are life savers, and if overdosed are fatal. Why would fish medication be any different? 5.0 PPM copper due to CopperSafe potency inconsistencies and a lack of reliable “noob-friendly” ways to measure copper is nowhere near the same as the 1.75PPM chelated copper recommendation that is just above the known therapeutic range.

Your replies to Humblefish or others often read as very condescending, ironically. I only share that based on your suggestions that he/we appear the same way. It’s not intended on our end, either. We are all passionate about the hobby. In our case, so much so that we’ve spent an unfathomable amount of time/money researching, hypothesizing, implementing, documenting, and sharing things to help others. We welcome the same from others that have different ideas. In fact, I think I speak for us all when I say we encourage it.

Jason