Fish disease on the rise?

[Paul B]

Jason, How about a Hippo tang? Those are the only tangs I don't actually hate and I feel they are the nicest looking tangs. Most of the ones I have had lived about 10 or 12 years which is probably a little short of their normal lifespan, but most of them got HLLE. I can get a small one for a test but I am not sure if you think a hippo is to easy and not enough of an ich magnet. If not, I will try to get a more difficult tang.

 

[4FordFamily]

Robert, I have quoted this article quite a few times and it does state that fish need an input of bacteria and pathogens. Many people can't yet grasp that concept as it is kind of new to mainstream fishkeeping. But I feel it will catch on eventually.

For the record, I hesitate to treat my kids unless they have a serious cough or reason for treatment. I draw this parallel because it’s often brought up here, let me expand on it.

My 3 and 5 year old go to daycare. This, is like our fish tanks. Lots of animals with little resistance/immunity to pathogens and disease in a small “box”. I don’t really react when my kids cough, sneeze, or get sick for the most part. This is what happens in daycare and they emerge with strong immune systems.

But sometimes things happen. My kids get hand/foot and mouth, or something more sinister. Or recently, strep throat, scarlet fever, and an ear infection for my son. My lassiez faire approach to his illness’ caused scarlet fever and would have led to pnemonia or perhaps death. I didn’t realize how serious it was, I brought him in for whining one night for 2 minutes pointing to his ear (assuming an ear infection) to find out he had strep and it had progressed to scarlet fever. The boy had had a perpetual cough. My daughter, nearing 5 years old has been in the cesspool daycare long enough that she gets sick 1/4 the frequency of her brother who hasn’t yet developed his immune system in the same way.

Here’s where it’s different, however:

1) My kids don’t spend 100% of their time in that small box of a room at daycare

2) There is not a way to prevent these ailments from occurring, and even if there was a way — they will be exposed to it in life because of #1

3) Sometimes still refusing to treat with antibiotics, or other medications can and does lead to death

4) Kids aren’t fish, this is nothing more than an analogy/parallel I see brought up frequently by people on the “other side of the fence”.

You should know though that I don’t worry when my son coughs. I don’t worry when he’s sick. I love him the same and treat him much the same. I don’t panic and rush him to the doctor. Kids get sick, especially in daycare/school. He has no choice but to build this immune system to make it as an adult.

Conclusion:

1) Our fish do NOT need to build this resistance/immunity to survive as they’ll only be exposed to what we allow, and perhaps more importantly

2) Brand new fish through the distribution system don’t have the strength/immune system/energy to fight off all of these pathogens - by and large.

If you wish to make a resistant/“immune” tank, start with healthy fish, not “zombies”. Slowly introduce them to pathogens, then remove said pathogens. Give the body a chance to fight and adapt over time. A healthy specimen makes this easier. I still don’t agree with the practice because I find it unnecessary because of #1 above but that’s just MY opinion. My opinion is not any more valuable than anyone else assesses it to be. Perhaps it’s of no value at all, to most/many.

 

[4FordFamily]

Jason, How about a Hippo tang? Those are the only tangs I don't actually hate and I feel they are the nicest looking tangs. Most of the ones I have had lived about 10 or 12 years which is probably a little short of their normal lifespan, but most of them got HLLE. I can get a small one for a test but I am not sure if you think a hippo is to easy and not enough of an ich magnet. If not, I will try to get a more difficult tang.

I’ve kept hippo tangs in ich management/velvet management before. I had one live in velvet for 6 months before I realized that’s what it was. Other tangs and angels dropped like flies, it seemed unaffected— until it wasn’t it deteriorated fast within 3 days seemingly out of nowhere.

Sometimes they showed little impact and their “transformation” was less dramatic.

But assuming you don’t get velvet at critical mass I would say hippo are some of the easiest fish to keep in management tanks. I’ve told many that they seem to become covered in ich, hide for a few days or weeks, then emerge seemingly “unaffected”. It was this observation and the ability of some zebrasoma genus tangs to overcome these parasites that I (wrongfully IMO) assumed that acanthurus tangs could do this— namely powder blue, powder brown, achilles, and goldrim.

I have kept many hippo tangs over the years before I quarantined, some of which for good lengths of time. I don’t agree with the ethics of this and do feel this would be comparatively more difficult with the status of the distribution system but I’m confident I could do it as well. Most will still experience losses trying, and that’s where I feel the ethics of this are lacking. A hippo is also an easy fish to get through quarantine as long as your fish eats prior to purchase and you do not use chloroquine Phosphate.

The true test is a PBT or Achilles. The Achilles is easiest for you to document and photograph as you go. It’ll show any and all ailments very easily. They’re also the pinnacle of difficulty with ich management methods.

 

[Paul B]

I will see if I can find an Achilles tang. I have had them and they get a little bigger than the fish I like to keep. But I do have a bunch of algae in my tank so he will be fed well. Unless of course he croaks from parasites and then I will know I can't keep them any more.

To add one thing you mentioned in your last post about quarantined fish being fine as long as they are not infected for the rest of their life is of course true. I am not sure if the weakened immune system will effect their long term health and I don't think any one knows. I couldn't use that system if I wanted to because part of my theory is that we should feed fresh or preferably live food to fish and that would normally carry pathogens.

 

[joec]

All is I can say is that after a long hiatus and recent return to the hobby, I went 0-2 on fish quarantine and then after kindly being mentored by a a very patient Hotrocks with the HRocks, HF and 4Fordfamily quaratine protocol, I'm proudly now 3 for 3.

This is an important discussion to have and for newbies to understand the issue. If the wholesalers have become more irresponsible with selling diseased fish, the only solution is for responsible hobbyists to attempt to mediate the situation with appropriate quarantine procedures. What drives me a little nuts is the constant question by newbs in these forums of "do I really need to quaratine, I dont have room or time for a QT", or other such nonsense. That question should be met with as stearn but polite "YES" every time its asked, with no deviations.

 

[Fastpitch]

For what it is worth (probably very little), what I like about QT methodology is that it seems far more proactive. It feels to me like the debate here parallels different approaches to modern medicine in a lot of ways. There is a portion of the population who reject traditional treatments and espouse nutrition, homeopathic remedies, holistic approaches, etc. There might be a lot of merit to it.

But for my part, I would never have the guts to try it.;Nailbiting

-noob

 

[SDK]

Interesting how things cycle over the years in this hobby.

I religiously used diatom filtration with the addition of powdered activated carbon when I kept discus in the late 1970’s. I would run it after water changes on my freshwater and marine tanks. Even though it probably directly contributed to my success back then, I had not thought that it would be something to consider in the modern reef hobby. It makes great sense when you look at it closely though.

What everyone is referring to as Oxydator used to be marketed to the freshwater hobby circa the early 1980’s (or thereabouts) as the Automatic Aquarium Oxygenator. It had a great box with a graphic of tiny scuba divers scrubbing an aquarium clean.

It was one of the few things of that nature that I never tried. Using it entailed putting what looked like an inverted bottle type pet watering bowl into the display. I’m assuming that it has either been greatly refined or is only used in sumps in the modern hobby.

This has been both an informative and frustrating discussion to read. Like the OP I am returning to the marine side of the hobby after a decade plus absense. Trying to pull the best plan out of both sides before my first fish purchase.

 

[Paul B]

I just called my friend who works at an LFS and told him to get me the most ich magnet tangs he could find. An achilles tang is to expensive for an experiment after which I will try to catch it to give it away as it is not the type of fish I like.

 

[ReefWithCare]

The main issue I have with is that the QT information is pretty comprehensive, but the non-QT stuff really isn't.

On this forum, we have a flowchart and the actual procedures for each type of QT all detailed out by HF & others. It still is at minimum an intermediate level procedure, but at least it is there.

For the non-QT stuff, the information is vague. I hear things like - feed live food or make your own fish food, but no recipes or details on how to actually prepare it and feed it to your fish. Do I need to worry about over-polluting my tank if I'm making my own food and have a smaller tank like a 28G nano cube? It seems like feeding fresh is the best as I got the impression that once you freeze it loses it's value under this method. I know I can find fish food recipes on YT --- but I want atoll's and PaulB's receipes because they have proven tanks. Some YTers crash tanks every few years and whine about it for views.

I hear things like - get water from the sea - but realize that a large number of the SW community does not live on the coast with sea water readily available. So then I hear get garden soil - but no specific suggestions (a product link would help). Saying to just get soil with bug or weeds in it could be a problem because we don't know what pesticides could have been used in the soil in the past (as some people here rent or recently moved into new homes and have no idea what the former tenants did to the soil). There are also various types of soil. For example, is red clay soil a good idea to throw into a tank or should I look for loomy soil? Do I need to worry about the pH makeup of the soil I throw in as soil can be alkaline or acidic.

The oxygenator is a GREAT idea --- but if you live in the US you can't even find the A model as many of us run larger tanks (I'm going to look into getting this imported because it sounds amazing). Another matter is that some people who do not QT have had tanks for a very long time. The tank is mature and has the advantages that a brand new hobbyist does not have:

- No live rock (most of it is banned now)
- No mature source of getting water from (tank is usually started sterile nowadays)
- Some may not have access to LRS or other premium frozen because they don't live around an LFS who supplies them
- Some live food is cultured like black worms. Is there a guide that explains how to exactly do this so my SO doesn't divorce me over the smell and look of worms in a fridge lol.

The non QT protocol that the successful folks have run is actually very in-depth and something a novice would need to do a lot of research on to pull off correctly. That type of information is not exactly easy to find on this forum. I actually think a well documented protocol with a buying guide would be more comprehensive than the QT protocols post on here by HF. I know it's way more than just feed food with bacteria to your fish.

All I see is little stabs or "go look up my profile or past posts" and some Holier than thou attitude when someone brings up how they don't QT from both sides. Just gather it together in one post or hell write a book and charge for it. I'll happily buy it.

 

[4FordFamily]

I also ask this:

What is more taxing on the immune system over time?

1) Continuously fighting off ich, velvet, flukes, uronema, or other parasites/ailments

Or

2) Immune system free to focus on other body processes in an environment without these things?

I ask that because I truly do not have the answer. It’s a tough question. If you quarantine properly you shouldn’t ever expose your fish to such pathogens. Infections can always happen, so an immune system will always have to deal with that. But I personally feel that without needing to fight off constant small attacks by parasites, an immune system will be more apt to fight these off on its own.

A real life example that just happened; fluke infestation damaged my sohal tang’s tail. It became pretty infected, even in antibiotics. It was also in copper, a known immune suppressant. I faced a choice after it had been treated for every possible parasite and ailment EXCEPT for wide range of bacteria.

I could have treated it with NFG and it would have probably worked as it’s one heck of a drug for infection.

But since the fish was not worsening during 7 days observation (and without medication in the water) I decided to throw it in a clean display tank (500G) and let his immune system do its thing. A week later, it’s improving. No medication needed. Clearly, it still has a healthy immune system. The infection was pretty sizable, you can see it on his tail in my videos on my build thread (see the link in my signature). It's probably 25% better since, which is saying a lot given the fact he's not being "treated" and it's a pretty large infection, and it's only been a week.

That fish was in copper, spectrogram, metroplex, general cure, etc. It saw many medications and yet, had the immune response required to fight off a pretty large and serious infection IMMEDIATELY afterward.

Food for thought, as I certainly do not have all of the answers.

 

[HotRocks]

I respect what you all try to do in the disease forum and I too try and pitch in when I can.

I've provided links and plenty of discussion material - I provided the last citation regarding ich's ability to persist in hypoxic zones to Humblefish - but first I have to get past the naysayers who have their consensus opinion and a cheering section. You who run that forum need to keep group think in check - not encourage it. Search my posts and contributions. Then come back.

To take liberties with a quote from a great American "Its not that we reefers are ignorant, its just that we know so much that isn't so!

@robert, while you may have all of the info required to try to replicate your system spread across this forum, I certainly don't have the time to round it all up. What I would love to accomplish is all of the fine details in a single post. We have opposing views, so what! I am sure I could make a single thread (or even a sticky for the disease forum), once all of you who advocate to do this without QT detailing each of your systems for others to see. I think it would be good for the membership of R2R. Are you saying this is too much to ask? You can even send it to me in a PM if you'd like. We have @Paul B's write up. If you and @atoll are willing to do so then that's at least 3 total, it is good start.

Also its only fair to be forthcoming with all of the info. You all always criticize the loss of fish due to QT. I suspect that you all who don't QT experience some sort of loss along the way. Or does every single fish you purchase live for 20-30 years? I certainly cant say that every single fish I drop into a QT lives to talk about it. Nor would I portray that. I have always been very honest and forthcoming with my struggles in my threads, article, etc. I include such info in an effort to help others. I can tell you over the last 100 fish I have treated, I am at a 90% or better success rate. With much help of @Humblefish of course!

The reason I am pushing this:
If you want to keep a tank of long living healthy fish, you cant just set up a tank and drop fish in, feed pellets and flake etc. You either have to properly QT them or add additional equipment in order to reduce the amount of pathogens in a tank in order to be successful. (Or a method like @Paul B, which may or may not be easily repeatable based on geographic location etc.) Along with several other things that BOTH sides do in regards to maintaining healthy fish as far as diet, water quality etc.

My opinion of the better route being to properly QT fish, is just that, an opinion. Where I struggle with the opposing side lies in the disease forum. 10+ daily threads of people with sick fish that didn't QT them to begin with. So how did they get there? The criticization of people killing fish drives me crazy, because if they are in the disease forum in the middle of a tank wipeout from disease their fish clearly can't live with parasites and they are at least attempting to do right and save their fish. While if they had implemented your methods (From the beginning) they may not have ended up with sick fish. If they had used my method (From the beginning) they would not have sick fish either. I don't want to see unnecessary loss either. I am like everyone else and just want fat healthy fish in DT. My/our process can be repeated, with minimal loss. It does take much effort, attention to detail, and several "tools". Several threads are on this site detailing so. All I am asking for here is direction from you all on the opposing side in detail.

 

[4FordFamily]

I just called my friend who works at an LFS and told him to get me the most ich magnet tangs he could find. An achilles tang is to expensive for an experiment after which I will try to catch it to give it away as it is not the type of fish I like.

Paul, I am happy to fund the achilles tang for this purpose. I can paypal you the money, just let me know when. The only term of my donation is that you do not wait until the fish is covered in parasites to treat it. When it is clearly ill and its' behavior begins changing (I.E. it swims in to powerheads to supply oxygen to its' damaged gills), be ready to treat and be willing to do so. PM me if you like.

Also, I am happy to pay to re-home it when the time comes based on his size.

 

[MrsBugmaster]

I would love to have the details of @Paul B and others non QT people methods all in one place too. What foods, and where you get them, ect.

 

[Rython]

Every other type of animal can be treated for disease with appropriate many types of medication without significantly impacting their life expectancy. It's hard for me to imagine why this would be different for fish.

I've also observed several fish that seemed perfectly happy in a QT and seemed more stressed once added to the DT where they had to compete. Obviously, this is ancedotal, i'm not even sure how you would measure "stress". Maybe some of them like being attacked at meal time.

I too have observed that a very high percentage of the fish I have bought (mostly online) came in with very nasty diseases. Though I haven't been in the hobby long enough to say whether it's worse than it was 10 years ago, I can say for my small, non-statistically significant sample it does seem like it has gotten considerably worse over the last 3 years.

Some of the assertions from the QT deniers just don't square with my experiences. Additionally, it's really hard for me to believe that it's bad to cure a fish of potentially life-threatening diseases and introduce it into a sterile environment. I accept that doesn't necessarily mean they're wrong, but for me, the QTers make a more compelling argument.

I do think it would really help the cause of the QT deniers if you could put together a step-by-step guide that details your method so others can attempt to replicate your success. Judging by the daily tank wipe-out threads in this forum, there are PLENTY of people that are inclined to skip QT - and I don't blame them. It's hard, and it's expensive, there is a serious learning curve. So an easier, replicatable alternative would be welcome to a lot of people i'm sure, and having more than a handfull of people claiming success with the method would give you guys a lot more credibility.

 

[Sallstrom]

I'm not sure I dare to write something in these kinds of threads but here we go.. Be kind

About quarantine. IMO it's really hard to keep a newly transported fish in a small and clean QT tank without stressing the fish even more. Of course you could use a large and well cycled tank with lots of hiding places. But how many hobbyists has got an extra tank big enough to quarantine a tang for example?

My point is sometimes it might be less stressful for a fish to skip quarantine and go straight into a well established tank with lots of hiding places and good water if you can't offer a good quality tank and quarantine routine.

PS
Lives in Sweden and buy mostly directly from wholesalers, so I have no clue on how things are in the US fish stores/wholesales

 

[atoll]

@robert, while you may have all of the info required to try to replicate your system spread across this forum, I certainly don't have the time to round it all up. What I would love to accomplish is all of the fine details in a single post. We have opposing views, so what! I am sure I could make a single thread (or even a sticky for the disease forum), once all of you who advocate to do this without QT detailing each of your systems for others to see. I think it would be good for the membership of R2R. Are you saying this is too much to ask? You can even send it to me in a PM if you'd like. We have @Paul B's write up. If you and @atoll are willing to do so then that's at least 3 total, it is good start.

Also its only fair to be forthcoming with all of the info. You all always criticize the loss of fish due to QT. I suspect that you all who don't QT experience some sort of loss along the way. Or does every single fish you purchase live for 20-30 years? I certainly cant say that every single fish I drop into a QT lives to talk about it. Nor would I portray that. I have always been very honest and forthcoming with my struggles in my threads, article, etc. I include such info in an effort to help others. I can tell you over the last 100 fish I have treated, I am at a 90% or better success rate. With much help of @Humblefish of course!

The reason I am pushing this:
If you want to keep a tank of long living healthy fish, you cant just set up a tank and drop fish in, feed pellets and flake etc. You either have to properly QT them or add additional equipment in order to reduce the amount of pathogens in a tank in order to be successful. (Or a method like @Paul B, which may or may not be easily repeatable based on geographic location etc.) Along with several other things that BOTH sides do in regards to maintaining healthy fish as far as diet, water quality etc.

My opinion of the better route being to properly QT fish, is just that, an opinion. Where I struggle with the opposing side lies in the disease forum. 10+ daily threads of people with sick fish that didn't QT them to begin with. So how did they get there? The criticization of people killing fish drives me crazy, because if they are in the disease forum in the middle of a tank wipeout from disease their fish clearly can't live with parasites and they are at least attempting to do right and save their fish. While if they had implemented your methods (From the beginning) they may not have ended up with sick fish. If they had used my method (From the beginning) they would not have sick fish either. I don't want to see unnecessary loss either. I am like everyone else and just want fat healthy fish in DT. My/our process can be repeated, with minimal loss. It does take much effort, attention to detail, and several "tools". Several threads are on this site detailing so. All I am asking for here is direction from you all on the opposing side in detail.

I am away at the moment so l am writing this on my phone. I guess I have posted all the info you are asking for over a number of different threads. I will try and put it all into one post starting with the equipment I have used over a number of tanks I have owned which I consider helpful to the wellbeing of my animals. I will keep my post aimed directly at the health of fish but there is an overlap with corals of course.

A good quality protein skimmer.
The use of Oxydator's or ozone. I prefer Oxydator's as you many know. I understand however I lot of people reading this may not know what Oxydators are.
The result of using Oxydators is saturation or near saturation of oxygen in the DT.
I don't use any prefiltration at all but I doubt this has any direct effect on disease control but thought I should mention it.
Lots of correct water movement in the DT which for want of a better term exercises the fish and I believe aids there well being.
Good water quality.

Foods and feeding now.
I make much of my own foods which I purchase fresh from the fish market some maybe frozen. I never buy cooked. I buy squid, mussels, scallops, prawn and shrimp, oysters.
I process all these individually and freeze in small plastic pots. When I need the food I simply grate it or chop it into small pieces. To the food zinthen add fush oils and allow it to soak into the food for 20 to 30mins before feeding. I tend to broadcast feed and feed quite a lot at a time as I have a well stocked tank.
I also buy frozen aquarium foods like brine shrimp, rotifers, lobster and oyster eggs, cyclops and frozen brune shrimp nupli. I also hatch brine shrimp regular
I feed my tank at least 3 times a day often 4 or 5 times.

Environment and reefscape.
I try to create as near as possible a reef similar to where most of my fish would be found in their natural environment. Plenty of caves, overhangs and hiding places. I like to incorporate empty barnacle shells for small fish to take refuge in and even spawn in.
I consider the environment I create to be an important part of what I do which helps to reduce stress again very important IME.

Onto the fish I like to keep.
Although I have kept a number of Tangs and a few large angels these were purchased small and when I considered them getting too large I sold them on. However I am not a fan of large fish in general as I don't have the room in my tanks to create a natural environment with the large area of swimming space they encounter in nature.
I favour small damsels, dwarf angels, gobbies, blennies, small wrasse, cardinals, royal grammas and the like.
I like as best as possible to keep my fish in pairs or small groups as they would be fiund on the reef. Most my fish if not all are the kind that generally stay close to the reef scape. Most of my fish spawn on a regular basis.

The above all help to keep stress at a minium. If any squabbles to occure they are short lived and my fish are compatable with each other. However the odd tiff is to be expected and does no harm.

Before anybody says " but I don't keep delicate fish" I have kept multibar dwarf angles and a regal angel among others which are considered difficult fish or at least for experienced aquarists only.

When buying fish I like to see them eating, I observe them for half an hour sometimes more in the LFS often leaving then returning to observe them. I watch for alertness and signs of natural behaviour.

The theam running through my posts is stress free as much as possible. I float the bags my fish are in to equalize temperature before release usually about 30 mins.
I will leave it there for now. Sorry for any misspellings and grammar

 

[Humblefish]

It's my understanding that the Vortex Diatom Filter is not really suitable for continuous use. I saw @robert say that he uses a "slightly modified Hayward EC40 Perflex Extended-Cycle D.E. Pool Filter." Perhaps he can elaborate on that modification. I use small Marineland Polishing filters (with DE) for water clarity purposes, and every couple of days I have to clean & recharge them. Only takes 10 minutes or so (per filter), but it is one more thing I have to do manually. So, I'm wondering how much maintenance is required to maintain a large D.E. Pool Filter? Can I ever go on vacation again if I'm counting on it to continuously siphon free swimming parasites out of the water??

I understand the concept of using a Diatom Filter and/or UV sterilizer for dilution purposes. I get that fish have an immune system, and there are several techniques you can use to make it more robust. And this article talks about using H2O2 to treat velvet (oxydators utilize H2O2): http://www.academia.edu/23793309/Th...n_the_Pacific_Threadfin_Polydactylus_sexfilis

However, several questions remain inside my head:

1. Just how practical is it for a novice hobbyist to adopt these practices? Because the oxydator/diatom filter really needs to be in place before any fish are added; installed as part of the initial build would be ideal.
2. What benefit does a diatom filter provide for fish afflicted by a parasite or worm with a direct life cycle? Or a bacterial disease? Any pathogen which lives, feeds and reproduces directly on the fish (no encysted stage)...
3. How much maintenance is required to maintain these tools? Do you need to keep a backup on hand in case it ever breaks? What happens if you turn it off for a few days or even 1-2 weeks to go on vacation?
4. Do I just install an oxydator and/or diatom filter, and that's it?? I can then start dropping fish right into my DT without ever having to QT? Are there any missing pieces to the puzzle that we need to know about? Other techniques you all are using that will increase the chances of never seeing a disease on any fish??

 

[MrsBugmaster]

@atoll What kind of fish oil do you add to your food and how much do you add?

 

[Feet4Fish]

Did you check the information tab in my profile -
I have some videos on youtube you may like...There's Black, Achilles and Powder Blues dancing in some and yellows out working...

What is your YouTube channel name?

 

[atoll]

@atoll What kind of fish oil do you add to your food and how much do you add?

I am.in the UK and buy seven seas fish oil with omega 3. I tend to defrost about 3 days worth of mixed food enough to feed 4 times a day to which I will add 5mil of the oil. Reglar stiring the mix and again before each feeding. This allows the maxium amount of time for the oil to soak into the food. Unless using the food the mix is kept refrigerated untill used up.