Getting upset, don't know what I am missing here. Please help

[maroun.c]

I say give it your best before you stop the tank. It took me close to 4 years to solve an unknown cause that wiped out a crazy collection of corals but the sense of achievement when you do is the best!

Get your parameters right then keep them stable and make a list of things to check or improve and proceed by order of priority allowing some time for results.
I describe things I considered and things I corrected till things improved on this page in my build https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/maroun-c-390-g-build-thread.60956/page-12 (long read )
I'd advise the following as basic as they are for starters:
Check for Chloramines in your Tap and RODI. If it's high in input water make sure to change your carbon frequently.
Make sure your refractometer is calibrated.
Check saltwater fresh mixes.
Make sure your reactors and skimmer are well maintained and refilled frequently. Go slow with GFO as it can't strip,water quick and cause issues. Then maybe sent a water sample to Triton testing to be sure you're not missing some elements that's out of norm.
Check PH fluctuations around 24 hours.
Check your system for any metallic stuff that went in...
A heavy metal removing resin can help but if triton testing is negative that is not needed.
Good luck as I know 1st hand how frustrating it can get.

 

[Saltgator]

Just wanted to say, don't give up. I've been in this situation before and nothing made since. What I did? Stop chasing numbers and see where the numbers were off with actual things in my system (too much feeding or too big of a bioload or not the right salinity, etc), basically visually looking at the entire system and not looking at numbers. In the end, my issue was simple, SAND. I love the look but it trapped more junk than gfo or biweekly water changes could help. Once I started removing the sand, stn stopped and lps started opening more. I'm not saying go bb, but if your gonna keep sand, make sure it's not retaining nutrients like mine and siphon from the sand bed when doing a wc. Some have a dsb or even a ssb, but it usually has a good turn over by multiple animals within our box of water. Good luck and keep your head up.

 

[certain_code]

once you get the levels in check and see what your consumption is that might be feasible. I do bi weekly water changes and I don't really dose but I run kalk in my top off water, run a oversize skimmer and that is it, no gfo no carbon and my corals look fine, I think some people strip their water too much and start having issue with their corals

I am seeing my currently consumption leevls and then will dose everything to get it back to where it should be. I will then do the same over a longer period to see what I should be reguarly dosing. I used to run Kalk but stopped when I started dosing. My skimmer pulls great but it not really what I would consider oversized (BM Curve 5). I don't think I am stripping my water but it's possible.

If you were dosing tour parameters shouldnt be this low. Take your water to a lfs, ask them to check everything for you. You might have a bad test kit. Your Alk is ok. CA is too low. Raise it to a least 400. You MAG is a little on the low side as well. Try raising it to 1350.
With calcium at 200 your corals that requires calcium might die.

I was dosing but seemed like it was way too much and things were dying. I just stopped as people here recommended to let the tank adjust and to measure consumption levels. My worry is that even after a water change my calcium is crazy low. I dosed Mag up after the change so it should be around 1350 now.

Another thing follow the instructions on your test kit. Some people dont wait or skip steps. That can give you a wrong read as well

Yup, always do. Mainly because I forget drop amounts and waiting times for each test. I am very scientific about my testing process.

Just out of curiosity what is your water source? Are you using reverse osmosis deionized water? Store bought? Tap/faucet water? Are you using a TDS meter and making sure your waters total desolved solids reads zero before mixing the salt? When you mix your salt how long are waiting before adding the new water to the tank? Are you running a sump or refugium with macro algae? Like you some years back I was getting to the point of calling it quits until I was told to use RO/DI water and get a sump or refugium and grow macro algae. I refused to be done in and bought these items along with a phosphate/nitrate reactor. Now I am the winner not the tank. Trust me its worth it in the long run!!

Water source is RO/DI from BRS unit. TDS in is ~10-20 and out is 0.
I wait about 24 hours with a strong powerhead mixing/aerating during that time.
I have a sump but just added a light and some cheato to try getting phosphates down and give a home to copepods.
Thanks for the support and encouragement.

I struggled with parameter staying in check and was dosing this and adding that... Long story short my test kits were all bad still within the use by date but way off so I changed things up a little now I do water changes at least every week at leat 20% its a lot I know but my tank has never looked better I use rodi water and run cheep protein skimmer through on a carbon and gfo I use phosguard instead of gfo I think just because it was cheaper but everything is looking great i hoo this helps

I have a strong skimmer (BM Curve 5) and change ~10% about every two weeks now. Always using RODI water. Have carbon and GFO running in a reactor as well.

I know this is very simple but do you calibrate your refractometer on a regular basis?

I didn't but I did a few days ago as mentioned earlier in the thread by someone. I used Randy's DIY calibration so it might be slightly off but I am running in the correct range so I am confident even a little variance is not putting me in a deadly range.

Do you have a TDS meter to test the RO/DI water?

Yup, reading 0 TDS coming out of my RO/DI unit.

Interesting. Before I bought my under the counter RO/DI unit I went to Petco and asked to purchase some of there water. I was told I might want to hold off as there water was at 7 He told me they haven't gotten around to changing the filters but if I come back mid week it should be resolved. I went home and ordered my own unit that night.

At this point when I run the unit I let the output go down the sink drain for at least 15 minutes. Then I get a clean cup and fill enough to test with the TDS meter stick. If its not reading zero the units output goes back down the drain for a note 15 minutes. Thats crappy city water for ya.

If after a second test the TDS reading is still high I will check and if needed replace the DI beads.

I have dumped buckets in the past because when the bucket is full or near full I re test and if I forgot to clean the bucket before fill up the TDS reading will not pass the test. I only except zero on the meter. By the way I converted my under the counter RO/DI unit to be used on top of the counter. I bought this particular unit because it can produce 150 gallons a day and had way bigger filters then a portable unit.

I do not have a separate meter but my RODI unit has a built in one that reads 0. Media in the RODI unit was replaced about 4 months ago so I am thinking that is not the source but I might pick up a meter for ease of use. Thanks

By the way it was the same Petco guy who asked what size sump or refugium I had on my 55. I told him I don't have either one. He convinced me to get one so I went on eBay and got a HOB refugium/sump its 25 L x 16H. x 4.5W. I then added some new sand and then placed mirical mud on top. Then added macro. Which has grown and now completely fills it. This leads me to ask are you runing a sump or refugium? Seems to me if nitrates are out of the equation then once the calcium issue is resolved you should have a thriving system.

I thought so as well. I have a sump but was not funning a fuge until very recently. I just picked up some clean up crew extras and a ball of cheato that I am now running in my sump. Hopefully that helps cure any other underlying issues.

how big is your sump? not sure how to tell you to get your calcium up I would probably do a 50% water change because dosing doesn't seem to be working, plus figuring with just 80 gals you would need to dose 8.6 oz of powder calcium to get you to 420, I think your test kit is ok because your cal test of fresh mixed water seemed about right

Sump is a DIY 20 gallon long so not pushing a lot of volume. I will be looking to upgrade to something better soon but for now it works well it seems. Doing a 50% water change is pretty difficult for me with the space I have so it would have to be over a period of time rather than all at once.

I say give it your best before you stop the tank. It took me close to 4 years to solve an unknown cause that wiped out a crazy collection of corals but the sense of achievement when you do is the best!

Get your parameters right then keep them stable and make a list of things to check or improve and proceed by order of priority allowing some time for results.
I describe things I considered and things I corrected till things improved on this page in my build https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/maroun-c-390-g-build-thread.60956/page-12 (long read )
I'd advise the following as basic as they are for starters:
Check for Chloramines in your Tap and RODI. If it's high in input water make sure to change your carbon frequently.
Make sure your refractometer is calibrated.
Check saltwater fresh mixes.
Make sure your reactors and skimmer are well maintained and refilled frequently. Go slow with GFO as it can't strip,water quick and cause issues. Then maybe sent a water sample to Triton testing to be sure you're not missing some elements that's out of norm.
Check PH fluctuations around 24 hours.
Check your system for any metallic stuff that went in...
A heavy metal removing resin can help but if triton testing is negative that is not needed.
Good luck as I know 1st hand how frustrating it can get.

Check for Chloramines in your Tap and RODI. If it's high in input water make sure to change your carbon frequently.

Make sure your refractometer is calibrated. Did this. Used a DIY calibration outlined by Randy. Might not be 100% but I am comfortable saying it is well within a safe range even if calibration was off a bit.

Check saltwater fresh mixes. Did a check and the results were posted a few posts back. Things seemed to be okay but not the most ideal

Make sure your reactors and skimmer are well maintained and refilled frequently. Go slow with GFO as it can't strip,water quick and cause issues. Then maybe sent a water sample to Triton testing to be sure you're not missing some elements that's out of norm. Check and check(ish). My skimmer is well maintained and pulls nicely. I probably should be better about my reactors but I do make sure they are pushing a normal amount of water a few times a week. I am due to change the media this week and might pull GFO since I am running cheato now and have heard mixed results about running GFO too frequently. I might grab a triton test to give me a good idea of where everything in the tank is.

Check PH fluctuations around 24 hours. PH is monitored 24/7 by my controller. When I started this thread and was dosing it was unusually high for the range it should be in (~8.50). After stopping dosing it is back to around ~8.20 and now that I running cheato on opposite cycles of my lights I am hoping it will stay much more stable over 24 hours.

Check your system for any metallic stuff that went in... Triton will help this but I don't have anything over than my RODI to test for TDS. RODI TDS emter reads 0

Just wanted to say, don't give up. I've been in this situation before and nothing made since. What I did? Stop chasing numbers and see where the numbers were off with actual things in my system (too much feeding or too big of a bioload or not the right salinity, etc), basically visually looking at the entire system and not looking at numbers. In the end, my issue was simple, SAND. I love the look but it trapped more junk than gfo or biweekly water changes could help. Once I started removing the sand, stn stopped and lps started opening more. I'm not saying go bb, but if your gonna keep sand, make sure it's not retaining nutrients like mine and siphon from the sand bed when doing a wc. Some have a dsb or even a ssb, but it usually has a good turn over by multiple animals within our box of water. Good luck and keep your head up.

Thanks for the encouragement! Even though I think sand looks better I am slightly hating having it at the moment and might eventually start removing it and going BB. I do always siphon the bed when doing water changes though.

 

[evolved]

If you've double and tripled checked that calcium reading of 200, you can raise it up to around 400. But do it slowly; no more than 50ppm per day.

If you've been causing a lot of precipitation by dosing prior to all of this, a low calcium reading is not all that surprising.

 

[certain_code]

If you've double and tripled checked that calcium reading of 200, you can raise it up to around 400. But do it slowly; no more than 50ppm per day.

If you've been causing a lot of precipitation by dosing prior to all of this, a low calcium reading is not all that surprising.

I did have a clear problem with calcification in July after my return pump stopped for a day or so and then kicked back on when I was away on vacation. Thus causing a spike in params and lots of dead coral and some fish.

I double checked that Cal was 200ppm but outside of that I am not sure how much calcification was happening since July with regular dosing. What are some clear signs of it? Since the July incident, my pumps have not been getting jammed up with simply some regular maintenance, my sand has broken up from previously being solid (caused by July issue), and nothing seems that have calcium deposits on it.

A few people have mentioned "clear signs of calcification" in my tank. What are those signs?

 

[RareEarthCorals]

Wow 5 pages of advice!

 

[certain_code]

Wow 5 pages of advice!

Really incredible all the help I have gotten.

I would argue as well that it is incredible how similar the advice all is as well for an online forum. Love the R2R community.

 

[RareEarthCorals]

Step back, breath, and keep it simple. So much can itself be overwhelming.

 

[Oceansize]

I only have with RO/DI as I don't have calibration fluid on hand. Any idea if I can cut down the levels of Randy's DIY calibration fluid and net the same results? Dont have a 2 liter bottle hanging around the house.

My refractometer manual says to use _distilled_ water to calibrate, not RODI. I bought a gallon jug at the grocery store and keep it around to double-check my calibration from time to time.

 

[joshkirkland83]

Keep up the good work and DONT QUIT!!

 

[certain_code]

Step back, breath, and keep it simple. So much can itself be overwhelming.

Thanks!

My refractometer manual says to use _distilled_ water to calibrate, not RODI. I bought a gallon jug at the grocery store and keep it around to double-check my calibration from time to time.

As does mine which is what I had done in the past. What I read more about recently (after some mentioning it here) is that calibrating closer to the level you intend on reading, 1.024 - 1.027 sg for example, will yield much more accurate results. Of course, calibrating to 0 is better than not at all though.

Keep up the good work and DONT QUIT!!

Thanks!

 

[certain_code]

Got back from a work trip Sunday night and things were looking the same still.

Monday I took some measurements and came up with below. Since I had gotten my Mag up to 1350ppm I did add Kalk to my ATO again before I left for my trip. I know this doesn't allow to to get a full reset/understanding on everything but since I stopped using Kalk when I started dosing I figured I would start again.

Mag: 1350ppm (Salifert)
Cal: 215ppm (Salifert)
Alk: 7dkh (Salifert) I dosed to get Alk to 8dkh overnight (8 hours dosing time)

I am waiting on a BRS shipment Thursday to be able to get my Cal back in a good range again. At that point I will get Cal+Alk to correct levels, take a measurement, wait a week and then take another to get a good idea of daily consumption. Based on consumption I will adjust Kalk in my ATO accordingly and repeat the same weekly consumption test.

So, my question is if I keep my Alk at 8dkh, what is my ideal Cal to prevent calcification? Is between 380 and 450ppm fine or should I target something more specific for 8dkh?

Also, as a side note, my BRS order is going to include a Trigger Sump that should give me more water volume and more consistent skimming. Not really things that caused this root problem but certainly two things that have been annoying me about my setup. Trying to rekindle the love a bit

 

[marvelousone]

With all the info you are getting I want say much. I have used instant ocean for 6 years. Just this past year I started using reef crystals. I never had cal. as low as yours. Makes me wondering why yours is that low. Looking at your tank you don't have a bunch of corals that would suck it out. I have had a problem with low mag levels. I will say that anyone is right about fix mg. first. Mg keeps alk and cal from bonding together. I do not run a skimmer. I use cheato in a refugium and water changes once a month. I will use gfo when I have to clean my glass everyday. I will run it for a couple weeks then turn it off. I did not read how much gfo you were using. So all this said Hang in there you will make it. You are on the right path. I would only do one thing at a time. Give it a couple weeks then try something new. If you do a lot at one time how will you know what fixed it. I hope this helps Hang in there..

 

[rjcranor]

I have used peroxide to remove the algae from my rocks lately, was about to get out myself. I took the rock out poured peroxide on and let set for a couple of minutes, rinse and brush off. Works great, most of my tank was over grown with algae.

 

[Russ265]

ok. im gonna step in because i can add a little from my observance.
btw r2r. you all are giving killer advice. i just wanted to get to the heart of the problem.

my friend. from my chair. it looks like you are chasing numbers with bad kits. or you left your batch of salt in the rain and are using a hammer to break it up before mixing it.

i use a 50:50 mix of RC and IO.
why a 50/50 mix? because RC has MORE of everything. especially alk. it has more potassium, mag, calcium. just MORE.

i have a 300 gallon system and buy more boxes of RC than most during the life of their system. ill tell you one thing.

no box or bucket has 200 ppm calcium. more like 450.
mag is generally 1350 with rc. no need to dose more.
alk is generally 12-13 with rc (hence i mix with IO)

get some red sea kits.
i know hanna is a cool test kit. but tbh, i trust my chemicals over the package you may leak or the sensor going out. my opinion only. i know plenty who love theirs.

gha is indicative of phosphates. its in there. it could be slowly leaching from rock or the substrate. if i was testing 0 phosphate and i saw gha id run clean gfo every 48 hours and phosguard in a high flow area of the sump for a week and suck up whatever i could followed by a 50% wc. HOWEVER. your corals probably wont be able to handle that in their weakened state. right now, gha never killed corals unless they smothered them and you need your parameters in line. once corals look better you can isolate the po4 issue.

the calcification on a sump of 6 months is indicative of overdosing. precipitation throws everything out of whack and they blame their salt. this is not the case. this is you playing reef scientist and chasing numbers. when you saturate the water with too much of anything all sorts of hell will break loose. just not enough room for other minerals and such to stay in solution.

to recap.
50% wc before dosing anything.
i think the 10% a week will hardly do anything because of how saturated the column could be.
put the bottles away for now.
rely on waterchanges until things look better. THEN you can start tweaking with doseages.
...but with the close observation of your watchful eye.
are they closing when you dose? open?

no test kit will work better than a coral looking miserable to tell you something is amiss.

stick with it. i think you just got carried away with the bottles.

as far as gfo goes. my gfo reactor is now a carbon one. id rather prevent po4 from ever forming rather than treating the po4 in the system and my corals are a lot happier with me doing so.

 

[certain_code]

With all the info you are getting I want say much. I have used instant ocean for 6 years. Just this past year I started using reef crystals. I never had cal. as low as yours. Makes me wondering why yours is that low. Looking at your tank you don't have a bunch of corals that would suck it out. I have had a problem with low mag levels. I will say that anyone is right about fix mg. first. Mg keeps alk and cal from bonding together. I do not run a skimmer. I use cheato in a refugium and water changes once a month. I will use gfo when I have to clean my glass everyday. I will run it for a couple weeks then turn it off. I did not read how much gfo you were using. So all this said Hang in there you will make it. You are on the right path. I would only do one thing at a time. Give it a couple weeks then try something new. If you do a lot at one time how will you know what fixed it. I hope this helps Hang in there..

Not really sure either to be honest. Even measuring NSW cal levels are lower than expected. I have about 10 coral of various sizes after some die off so I agree dosing was a bit overkill. I actually stopped running GFO and Carbon since stopping dosing as well. I do have cheato running now to help things out. Thanks

I have used peroxide to remove the algae from my rocks lately, was about to get out myself. I took the rock out poured peroxide on and let set for a couple of minutes, rinse and brush off. Works great, most of my tank was over grown with algae.

I see this as an extreme method but my algea seems to be pretty well maintained now actually so I don't think I will be using this method. Thanks for the tip though.

ok. im gonna step in because i can add a little from my observance.
btw r2r. you all are giving killer advice. i just wanted to get to the heart of the problem.

my friend. from my chair. it looks like you are chasing numbers with bad kits. or you left your batch of salt in the rain and are using a hammer to break it up before mixing it.

i use a 50:50 mix of RC and IO.
why a 50/50 mix? because RC has MORE of everything. especially alk. it has more potassium, mag, calcium. just MORE.

i have a 300 gallon system and buy more boxes of RC than most during the life of their system. ill tell you one thing.

no box or bucket has 200 ppm calcium. more like 450.
mag is generally 1350 with rc. no need to dose more.
alk is generally 12-13 with rc (hence i mix with IO)

get some red sea kits.
i know hanna is a cool test kit. but tbh, i trust my chemicals over the package you may leak or the sensor going out. my opinion only. i know plenty who love theirs.

gha is indicative of phosphates. its in there. it could be slowly leaching from rock or the substrate. if i was testing 0 phosphate and i saw gha id run clean gfo every 48 hours and phosguard in a high flow area of the sump for a week and suck up whatever i could followed by a 50% wc. HOWEVER. your corals probably wont be able to handle that in their weakened state. right now, gha never killed corals unless they smothered them and you need your parameters in line. once corals look better you can isolate the po4 issue.

the calcification on a sump of 6 months is indicative of overdosing. precipitation throws everything out of whack and they blame their salt. this is not the case. this is you playing reef scientist and chasing numbers. when you saturate the water with too much of anything all sorts of hell will break loose. just not enough room for other minerals and such to stay in solution.

to recap.
50% wc before dosing anything.
i think the 10% a week will hardly do anything because of how saturated the column could be.
put the bottles away for now.
rely on waterchanges until things look better. THEN you can start tweaking with doseages.
...but with the close observation of your watchful eye.
are they closing when you dose? open?

no test kit will work better than a coral looking miserable to tell you something is amiss.

stick with it. i think you just got carried away with the bottles.

as far as gfo goes. my gfo reactor is now a carbon one. id rather prevent po4 from ever forming rather than treating the po4 in the system and my corals are a lot happier with me doing so.

There is a lot here so I will try to respond to everything.

1. My RC are about 1 year old. Never been outside and is stored in a dry and cool location. So it dissolves well and seems to be fine. Params are measured low in NSW but I don't think it is bad test kits.
2. Dont really have the ability to do a 50% WC but working on doing more frequent ones to rid the tank of any bad water chemistry.
3. Bottles have been put away. Adding Kalk to my ATO to help with stability but monitoring levels outside to dose as needed manually.
4. I have both Salifert and Hanna test kits, both are outputting very near the same levels so I don't think test kits are the problem unless they are both bad.

Most of all, thanks for all the help.

 

[Russ265]

oh wow. salt over a year old?
yeah... im not sure. could have settled, or something else.

id chuck it tbh. those numbers do not come out of RC.

im also not a fan of salifert. if calcium is precipitating, you have too much.

how old are the test kits?

 

[certain_code]

oh wow. salt over a year old?
yeah... im not sure. could have settled, or something else.

id chuck it tbh. those numbers do not come out of RC.

im also not a fan of salifert. if calcium is precipitating, you have too much.

how old are the test kits?

Really? I feel like salt should be good for a lot longer than a year when stored in a dry and cool place. It is nearly towards the end of the bucket anyways so a few more WC and I will pick up some new salt.

What do you recommend for test kits then? I thought about going to the Red Sea kits once my Salifert are done since the kit comes in a nicer package and the ability to buy just the reagents.

Salifert test kits are about 6 months old and expire in late 2016.

 

[Russ265]

Really? I feel like salt should be good for a lot longer than a year when stored in a dry and cool place. It is nearly towards the end of the bucket anyways so a few more WC and I will pick up some new salt.

What do you recommend for test kits then? I thought about going to the Red Sea kits once my Salifert are done since the kit comes in a nicer package and the ability to buy just the reagents.

Salifert test kits are about 6 months old and expire in late 2016.

i mainly use red sea. ive never heard of anyone getting a false reading. just "difficult to read".

this might sound funny. but if i think my kit isnt reading correctly after several tests...

i use api. i know its weird. but api will at least give you ballpark numbers.

i had an issue using salifert giving false 0s for phosphate. reviews on amazon tell the same story as well as marine depot.

same goes with the hanna calcium checker.

at the end of the day, you need to find out what works for you.

i highly suggest going red sea pro for alk. the regular reef kit that contains alk is always +1 dkh ime. the pro i trust a lot more.

as far as the salt goes... idk. you are at the bottom of a bucket with it being over a year old. lots can settle. you could be throwing in junk.

ive seen abnormally low numbers with IO as well if the salt is over 6 months. so this would be the 2nd time ive heard of this.

another possibility is your refractometer or swing arm is shot. you could really be at 1.020 and have these outrageously low numbers.

my .02

 

[evolved]

Really? I feel like salt should be good for a lot longer than a year when stored in a dry and cool place.

You're correct.
Salt doesn't get old or go bad, unless it's been exposed to moisture and clumps or forms a solid block/brick. If it's been stored in a dry place and is still loose, it's fine.

I thought about going to the Red Sea kits once my Salifert are done

I find Salifert to be better, fwiw.

Test kit brands are pretty preferential; if you like what you're using and you can be consistent with them, stick with it.