GHL On Sale - BRS

[rtparty]

I doubt the disclaimer impacts the analysis.

First, I don't ever remember having to read this policy/term (or even check a box that i did read it) when ordering; therefore, it's not a part of the offer, acceptance, consideration, or ultimately the contract in that respect. Vaguely placing some boiler plate on website does not automatically make it a part of a sales contract.

Second, once money in tendered and taken by the offeror, the deal is done and all terms are in the contract (or supplied by law in some cases as necessary). The only terms BRS has in its sales contracts are price, shipping, tax, etc. At no point when you are clicking buy, etc., do you ever agree to allow them to change the price later.

I would want to review the UCC or statutes for anything specific to internet sales, but based on standard contract law, the above is sound analysis.

At what point does the law consider money being tendered and taken?

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

They can easily claim the inaccuracy though and deny the transaction.

I don't know about that... that's what everyone is debating. The law can be quite harsh in some respects.

But imagine otherwise--an (ebay_ auction or sale or an offeror being able to rescind sales after final based on claiming an "inaccuracy"--that could be equally harsh on the buyer.

Modern trends in the law favor consumers and buyers, not offerors and sellers, is another broad point.

 

[polyppal]

Pretty easy for people to avoid the post. Don't click on it especially when you know "it's obv devolved into something stupid..."

Half the posts on this site anymore are something that has little or nothing to do with the OP or reefing, go join a debate club if you want to argue the ethics of trying to get a cheap GHL or consider what hypothetical legal action comes into play?!? Seriously, some of you need to get a life instead of turning every mundane post on this board into some toxic argument

 

[MaddyP]

At what point does the law consider money being tendered and taken?

My thoughts exactly. It was my understanding once money was exchanged the transaction was agreed upon by both parties and this complete…

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

Pretty easy for people to avoid the post. Don't click on it especially when you know "it's obv devolved into something stupid..."

I don't think it's stupid. It's a curiosity. I make a good living arguing similar types of things all the time in court, and often win.

 

[rtparty]

My thoughts exactly. It was my understanding once money was exchanged the transaction was agreed upon by both parties and this complete…

But is a pending transaction considered complete?

I don't really care what happens with all of this at this point but I'm sure learning a lot of good stuff

 

[MaddyP]

Half the posts on this site anymore are something that has little or nothing to do with the OP or reefing, go join a debate club if you want to argue the ethics of trying to get a cheap GHL or consider what hypothetical legal action comes into play?!? Seriously, some of you need to get a life instead of turning every mundane post on this board into some toxic argument

Regardless of the outcome I’ve found this thread rather interesting. I’m sorry you don’t feel the same.

 

[JNalley]

They are all sister companies operating as separate entities.

If I had to guess, Bertram owns 50% in each of them.

Nothing at BRS has changed as far as I can tell. They still have great customer service. They are all passionate reefers. They like equipment and gear. They like a good debate/conversation. They are still putting out Investigative series and planning on many more. They haven't fired a bunch of people to "cut the fat" and are actually looking to hire a lot of people currently.

Neptune's culture immediately became better when Terence left. Now if we can get Ryan to influence some decisions over there, it's a win win for all of us. An example of this is the Apex ELMO will be returning "soon." It is very likely that Neptune and Ecotech will start playing nice again.

It's amazing all the hate BRS gets. Like they are actively trying to destroy the hobby or something. For those who stop and think for 2 seconds, it does BRS absolutely no good to push people away from them and the hobby. It is completely to their benefit that they continue doing what they have done for the last 15 years.

Do you remember Fox News "Fair and Balanced"? Fox's argument (and their fanbases belief/argument) was that they brought strong conservatives and liberals to the table for debate because it was good. When in reality, they were doing the same thing every news station does, pairing weak opposition or centrists with strong supporters. (Hopefully) we all know that their news was no more fair and balanced than anyone else's. This kind of reminds me of that. Can you show me, since the acquisitions, any competing products being discussed at length for their merits without being compared against their own products? This is my fear, and maybe it's unfounded, but I have tried and tried to find anything BRS has said about their competitor's products after the merges and can find nothing. There are 0 deep dives into Hydros or Profilux ecosystems, yet they carry (and some of them use) both. Why is that? If they were really interested in furthering the Hobby, why wouldn't they bring healthy opposition to the table and at the same time refine their own product to compete where the others are stronger? They simply don't do this... Yes, they do a lot of other things for the hobby, but they also act in their own self-interests as well, and I think people are sometimes blind to this.

 

[rtparty]

Half the posts on this site anymore are something that has little or nothing to do with the OP or reefing, go join a debate club if you want to argue the ethics of trying to get a cheap GHL or consider what hypothetical legal action comes into play?!? Seriously, some of you need to get a life instead of turning every mundane post on this board into some toxic argument

I'm not seeing the toxic argument but that's all subjective. I'm actually seeing a lot of good knowledge being passed around and many points being brought up that many would never think of. It's called conversation.

 

[Ranjib]

The problem with this is two-fold.

1) it's still unclear (to me) if BRS acquired Neptune or if Bertram Acquired Neptune. We already know Bertram Acquired EcoTech.
2) BRS might be better, culture-wise, than Neptune if they acquired Neptune. But Bertram Acquired BRS and EcoTech for sure. This means Bertram has a controlling share of BRS, not BRS. While Bertram will likely keep a lot of BRS's culture in place, they can and will dictate BRS in a manner in which they see fit. This isn't speculation, it's reality.

touche

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

My thoughts exactly. It was my understanding once money was exchanged the transaction was agreed upon by both parties and this complete…

The question is what is agreed upon.

Most states follow the "plain language" rule. In most cases, a court will just look at between the "four corners" or the plain language of the contract and follow it, unless there is an ambiguity.

The contract here has terms of price, shipping, etc., and not much else. There is no ambiguity at all.

People are arguing the disclaimer, but that "extrinsic" document/language/terms/evidence of sorts is not a part of the contract; many buyers would have never seen or read it. I cannot see how it comes into play unless allowed by some statute or authority. If the disclaimer was viewed as evidence of alternative agreement, it would be barred by the parol evidence rule---it's not between the four corners of the actual contract in dispute.

Some states follow an objective manifestation theory on contracts, others a subjective manifestation theory of contracts. The latter might provide BRS some arguments if Minnesota followed that theory of law; it could be argued there was no "meeting of the minds". The former would be very buyer friendly in this case.

All that said, the fact that BRS took the money in the end--is the dispositive fact; subjectively or objectively they agreed to the terms of a very low price. How do we know? They took the money.

 

[rtparty]

Do you remember Fox News "Fair and Balanced"? Fox's argument (and their fanbases belief/argument) was that they brought strong conservatives and liberals to the table for debate because it was good. When in reality, they were doing the same thing every news station does, pairing weak opposition or centrists with strong supporters. (Hopefully) we all know that their news was no more fair and balanced than anyone else's. This kind of reminds me of that. Can you show me, since the acquisitions, any competing products being discussed at length for their merits without being compared against their own products? This is my fear, and maybe it's unfounded, but I have tried and tried to find anything BRS has said about their competitor's products after the merges and can find nothing. There are 0 deep dives into Hydros or Profilux ecosystems, yet they carry (and some of them use) both. Why is that? If they were really interested in furthering the Hobby, why wouldn't they bring healthy opposition to the table and at the same time refine their own product to compete where the others are stronger? They simply don't do this... Yes, they do a lot of other things for the hobby, but they also act in their own self-interests as well, and I think people are sometimes blind to this.

Of course BRS has to act in their own self interest at times. They are a business. Ryan and company are responsible for over 100 employees and their families at this point. Why spend thousands of dollars and 40+ hours making a video on a product that isn't selling 1/10th of the competition? There is only so much time and talent. Helping the most amount of people has to take priority at some point. Right or wrong is up to the consumer.

Why isn't anyone else making seriously in depth guides for Hydros or GHL? We all have cameras and YouTube these days. If the market is so desperately craving these guides, it seems like a fantastic business model.

I don't go to Honda asking for a review on Toyota even though Honda may have some Toyotas sitting on the lot

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

LOL

 

[rtparty]

The question is what is agreed upon.

Most states follow the "plain language" rule. In most cases, a court will just look at between the "four corners" or the plain language of the contract and follow it, unless there is an ambiguity.

The contract here has terms of price, shipping, etc., and not much else. There is no ambiguity at all.

People are arguing the disclaimer, but that "extrinsic" document/language/terms/evidence of sorts is not a part of the contract; many buyers would have never seen or read it. I cannot see how it comes into play unless allowed by some statute or authority. If the disclaimer was viewed as evidence of alternative agreement, it would be barred by the parol evidence rule---it's not between the four corners of the actual contract in dispute.

Some states follow an objective manifestation theory on contracts, others a subjective manifestation theory of contracts. The latter might provide BRS some arguments if Minnesota followed that theory of law; it could be argued there was no "meeting of the minds". The former would be very buyer friendly in this case.

All that said, the fact that BRS took the money in the end--is the dispositive fact; subjectively or objectively they agreed to the terms of a very low price. How do we know? They took the money.

Is "pending" considered "they took the money?"

Honest question. I'm just trying to learn.

 

[MaddyP]

Is "pending" considered "they took the money?"

Honest question. I'm just trying to learn.

Not really sure, though the funds are unaccessible to me now whether pending or not.

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

Why isn't anyone else making seriously in depth guides for .... GHL?

It would take a lifetime..

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

Is "pending" considered "they took the money?"

Honest question. I'm just trying to learn.

If a judge asked me this question, i'd show him the credit card statement showing the transaction. Question answered.

Edit: all transactions on a credit card (real time) statement initially show as "pending". To me, this is "processing" by credit card company? I think it would be hard to say the money was not tendered at that point.??

If the credit card charged never processed all the way, eg., never showed a final charge, BRS might be able to argue it never took the money and the fact it did not process all the way is evidence of that. If the credit card statement showed a charge and then a refund that would surely help the buyer's case.

 

[JNalley]

Of course BRS has to act in their own self interest at times. They are a business. Ryan and company are responsible for over 100 employees and their families at this point. Why spend thousands of dollars and 40+ hours making a video on a product that isn't selling 1/10th of the competition? There is only so much time and talent. Helping the most amount of people has to take priority at some point. Right or wrong is up to the consumer.

Why isn't anyone else making seriously in depth guides for Hydros or GHL? We all have cameras and YouTube these days. If the market is so desperately craving these guides, it seems like a fantastic business model.

I don't go to Honda asking for a review on Toyota even though Honda may have some Toyotas sitting on the lot

But THAT is exactly the fear of the acquisitions.

BRS as a sole retail entity can and did do videos for a lot of the retail products they carry because it didn't matter to them which one sold more over the other. Now that there are competing interests (EcoTech Marine, Neptune Apex, AquaIlluminations), Tunze, Sicce, Maxspect, etc compete with EcoTech products, so the jury is out currently if we will get in-depth reviews of their new products (they already haven't covered the Maxspect Jump lights or the Blue Edition soon to be coming out), my speculation is that because they compete directly with AI Prime's at a lower pricepoint, they won't get reviewed, only time will tell though.

Also, did it ever occur to you that the reason Profilux or Hydros don't have more market share is that the internets number one source of information about reef equipment hasn't showcased them? Ryan brings this up in a "History of Controllers" video published a year or two ago where a controller manufacturer was telling him "No one will distribute it if you don't talk about it, they've already told me as much". He even acknowledges in the video that that's a big weight to carry on his shoulders. The simple fact of the matter is, the Reefing Hobby Community, retailers, and distributors as well as consumers, look to BRS for product information and recommendations. If they're recommending based on only products they are affiliated/associated/partnered with, the market share of all other products goes down, leading to less competition in the market.

As for the why aren't others doing deep-dives, there are smaller youtube outlets doing deep-dives of GHL/Profilux and CoralVue/Hydros, they just don't have nearly the viewership of BRS.

 

[rtparty]

If a judge asked me this question, i'd show him the credit card statement showing the transaction. Question answered.

Does the transaction show up if it never leaves pending and gets cancelled? I've honestly never watched for this on any of my statements. I can also say I've never been in a situation like this.

I'm usually the one who says "too good to be true" and misses out. Only to find out it was legit and kick myself.

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

Does the transaction show up if it never leaves pending and gets cancelled? I've honestly never watched for this on any of my statements. I can also say I've never been in a situation like this.

I'm usually the one who says "too good to be true" and misses out. Only to find out it was legit and kick myself.

See my edit above. It took me a second to get what you are were saying about the "pending issue"...