Got fish with ICH!!

ChattReefer · Feb 28, 2018

Hey guys! Wish my first post on here was on a happier note but sadly no. This is in a Red Sea MAX 250 (66 gallon)

Got a paired clownfish with an Anemone. No signs of ich at the LFS. Purchased them and acclamated they using the drip method. After they were acclamated, I did both clowns in a 5 minute RODI freshwater dip.

Once I got them into my DP, that's when I noticed the white spots. Not a ton, but one had at least 8 spots.

I instantly tore my DP apart to get them out since I'm housing other fish.

They couldn't have been in the tank longer than an hour.

My question is, are my other fish compromised since the clowns were in the tank? I am (as I'm typing) in the process of doing a 20 Gallon water change to be safe.

Should I be worried for my other fish??

Thanks!
Jonathan

(Older picture of my tank with older clown that I've sold)

DLHDesign · Feb 28, 2018

Welcome to R2R Jonathan; wish it was for a happier reason, but glad you made it here all the same. Tank looks great in that shot!

If the white spots you saw were indeed ich, then your entire DT has the potential to be infected, sadly. This is because it's possible that a Trophont from the fish came off while the fish was in the tank, which would potentially infect the tank.
Take a look at this thread (or the first post, at least) for some options and suggestions.

Note that clowns have a pretty thick (relatively speaking) mucus coat which helps protect them from ich, so it's not as common to see them with it as other fish. It can happen, for sure (and generally safer to assume that's the case when spotted), but it's also possible that the white spots could have just been sand particles stuck to their skin (that mucus coating is good at that, as well). The industry is pretty flush with ich (and velvet), so - sadly - this is not an uncommon challenge to have...

Note that a water change would be unlikely to help in the case of ich being in the tank. Likely a good idea to help with the disturbance from moving all the rock around to catch the fish, but just want to make sure you knew what it would (and would not) help with.

EmdeReef · Feb 28, 2018

Welcome to R2R!

Larger or smaller spots? Any other symptoms? Did you notice anything drop off during the FW dip?

Unfortunately, it’s possible your tank is infected even after a short period. If it is truly ich, the cycle is about 3-4 days but a fish may carry multiple parasites that are at different points of the cycle.

ChattReefer · Feb 28, 2018

Thanks for the replies!

As far as size goes, not sure what "small or large" would be with the white spots. Visible is the best I can offer. Not tons of spots, 8 at most, mostly around the face. Only one of the clowns had it, the other I didn't see any.

Do you think since I did the 5 minute fresh water dip that there is a better chance the ICH could have been more dormant?

EmdeReef · Feb 28, 2018

Many LFS treat their water systems with non therapeutic doses of copper to slow down velvet or ich and make fish appear without any signs...

Check these 2 threads below and try to see what the spots look like more. If ich, you got more time to treat but velvet kills fast. A pic of the clown would help as well. Any other symptoms like rapid breathing? Scratching? Are the clowns a QT now?

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-cryptocaryon-irritans.191226/

A freshwater dip helps with velvet but not really ich so don’t think so.

ChattReefer · Feb 28, 2018

EmdeReef said:
Many LFS treat their water systems with non therapeutic doses of copper to slow down velvet or ich and make fish appear without any signs...

Check these 2 threads below and try to see what the spots look like more. If ich, you got more time to treat but velvet kills fast. A pic of the clown would help as well. Any other symptoms like rapid breathing? Scratching? Are the clowns a QT now?

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-cryptocaryon-irritans.191226/

A freshwater dip helps with velvet but not really ich so don’t think so.

Thanks for the links!

Doesn't look like Velvet. These are Seabae Clowns, and have been in an Anemone, so there skin does look "gooey" but truly doesn't look disease like (I'm thinking of Brooklynella here). It honestly looks like ICH, and it didn't show till after the freshwater dip.

I don't have a QT, but I have some styrofoam I got a shipment of stuff in that I have made into a QT.

Only concern here is lack of space while breaking down my DP. So all my loose corals are in the styrofoam with the clowns.

Am I at risk of spreading ICH more once I reintroduce my corals to my DP?

EmdeReef · Feb 28, 2018

ChattReefer said:
Thanks for the links!

Doesn't look like Velvet. These are Seabae Clowns, and have been in an Anemone, so there skin does look "gooey" but truly doesn't look disease like (I'm thinking of Brooklynella here). It honestly looks like ICH, and it didn't show till after the freshwater dip.

I don't have a QT, but I have some styrofoam I got a shipment of stuff in that I have made into a QT.

Only concern here is lack of space while breaking down my DP. So all my loose corals are in the styrofoam with the clowns.

Am I at risk of spreading ICH more once I reintroduce my corals to my DP?

I don’t think I understand your plan, could you please clarify. Are you saying you will move the fish and coral temporarily to the styrofoam box while removing rocks etc from your display tank? Why would you break down your display tank?

If your fish do have ich and you choose to treat I’m not sure a styrofoam box would be appropriate.

To your question, in a fishless tank, ich can survive on corals rocks etc for ~76 days.

Humblefish · Feb 28, 2018

With new clownfish, I would be on the lookout for brook: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/brooklynella.247938/

ChattReefer · Feb 28, 2018

EmdeReef said:
I don’t think I understand your plan, could you please clarify. Are you saying you will move the fish and coral temporarily to the styrofoam box while removing rocks etc from your display tank? Why would you break down your display tank?

If your fish do have ich and you choose to treat I’m not sure a styrofoam box would be appropriate.

To your question, in a fishless tank, ich can survive on corals rocks etc for ~76 days.

I had to break apart my display to get the clown out of the tank. But I didn't have enough boxes for live rock, corals, and fish individually, so the clown are in the styrofoam box with the corals.

I'm going to try and snag a 10g or 20g tank and set up a quarentine for the clowns, and observe the rest of my fish in my DP.

What's the best method for treating the clowns in the QT?

ChattReefer · Feb 28, 2018

Humblefish said:
With new clownfish, I would be on the lookout for brook: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/brooklynella.247938/

Thanks for the heads up! But I've seen Brooklyne before and this doesn't look quite like that. Guess they could have Brook & ich though

EmdeReef · Feb 28, 2018

Any chance to get a good pic?

For ich treatment you should follow instructions from @Humblefish’s excellent articles.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-cryptocaryon-irritans.191226/

Keep in mind that if you want to keep your tank ich free you’ll have to run it fallow for ~76 days. Along those lines may make sense to put other fish in a QT as well even if separate from the clowns and at least observe for a couple of weeks for signs of ich.

If Brooklynela then you have to act fast and once more Humblefish’s link above would be your go to resource. Good luck!

ChattReefer · Feb 28, 2018

Woke up to one of the clowns dead... Thinking of just taking the other one back to the LFS and saying F*** off.

Big G · Feb 28, 2018

ChattReefer said:
Woke up to one of the clowns dead... Thinking of just taking the other one back to the LFS and saying F*** off.

Sorry for your loss. Such rapid death is often a symptom of velvet. Was it the one with the white dots?

ChattReefer · Feb 28, 2018

Now it looks like my blue regal Tang has a white spot on his black steipe. Could Ich develop over night like this?

ChattReefer · Feb 28, 2018

Big G said:
Sorry for your loss. Such rapid death is often a symptom of velvet. Was it the one with the white dots?

Yes it was. Could have already been stressed from the freshwater dip

DLHDesign · Feb 28, 2018

It sounds like you have velvet - it works that fast. Check the links above on the suggested course of action, but this is URGENT - velvet moves (and kills) quickly.

Big G · Feb 28, 2018

Freshwater dips usually don't kill fish unless the fish's immune system has already been compromised to the point where they probably would not have made it anyway. Sorry. Velvet often attacks inside the gills unseen doing tremendous damage.

ChattReefer · Feb 28, 2018

Here is a pic of the living clown. Doesn't look like Velvet

ChattReefer · Feb 28, 2018

Here is my blue regal with the white spot that showed up today

Big G · Feb 28, 2018

ChattReefer said:
Here is a pic of the living clown. Doesn't look like Velvet

Clowns and velvet can be a bit difficult to "see" because of their thick mucous coats and some seem to have individual resistance to the disease. Entire tanks of mixed fish have been wiped out and only the clowns survive, but they are carriers of the disease. But what goes on unseen within the gills can be devastating. Velvet reproduces almost exponentially. So that you have all the tools to help, here's Humblefish's Emergency Velvet Treatment. Note the underlined and bolded passages. Humble has noted increased survival rates when Acriflavine products are used as a bath following a freshwater dip.

Emergency Treatment for Marine Velvet Disease

I recently acquired 3 fish - Longnose Butterfly, Kole Tang, Naso Tang - with velvet. None showed visible physical symptoms right away, but they all came from a tank where velvet was known to be present so I just patiently waited. Before & after pictures will follow immediately after this write-up.

In short, the Butterflyfish didn’t make it; however the two tangs did. The only difference in their treatment was I used formalin (with Methylene Blue) on the butterfly in a bath solution, whereas the tangs got acriflavine (with NO Methylene Blue). It’s also worth noting that the butterfly & Kole Tang showed symptoms the worst, whereas the Naso only had moderate visible symptoms. Tangs are also generally considered hardier than butterflyfish, so there’s that factor to consider as well. Anyway, here is the treatment I used on them:

The short version:

5 minute freshwater dip
Immediately afterwards, perform a chemical bath (in saltwater matching SG/temp the fish came from). You have two options:

Acriflavine (preferred) - Do the bath for 75-90 minutes, but remove the fish immediately at the first sign of distress. Aerate heavily both before & during the bath, and temperature control the water. The following products contain acriflavine: Acriflavine-MS and Ruby Reef Rally. DO NOT mix acriflavine with any other chemicals.
Formalin - Do the bath for 30-60 minutes max, but remove the fish immediately at the first sign of distress. Aerate heavily both before & during the bath, and temperature control the water. The following products contain formalin: Formalin-MS, Quick Cure, Aquarium Solutions Ich-X, Kordon Rid-Ich Plus. Use protection (rubber gloves, face mask, eye protection, etc.) whenever handling formalin as it is a known carcinogen! However, you can add Methylene Blue to the formalin bath (1 capful per 2-3 gallons of bath water.)

After the bath, place the fish in a QT pre-dosed at 80mg/gal using Chloroquine phosphate. In theory, copper (exs. Cupramine, Coppersafe, Copper Power) should work just as well as CP. However, due to how fast velvet can reproduce you don’t have the luxury of slowly ramping up the copper level as is normally advised. Therefore, the fish needs to be placed in a QT with copper already at minimum therapeutic levels. This is the advantage CP has over copper in this particular situation.
While in QT, use a wide spectrum antibiotic (exs. Seachem Kanaplex, Furan-2) for the first week to ward off any possible bacterial infections. Secondary bacterial infections are very common in fish with preexisting parasitic infestations such as velvet.
Keep the fish in CP or copper (at therapeutic levels) for one month. However, you can transfer the fish into a non-medicated holding tank for observation after just two weeks (explained below). DO NOT lower the CP or copper level before transferring.