Help With Stubborn QT Ammonia...REALLY...really...stubborn

[DanielJameS]

I’ve had similar issues with ammonia tests. I’ve also used a lot of the ammonia badges & they have become my go-to measurement device. I use a light behind the badge. As already noted, I see one or two pics of slight ammonia but rest look ok. I’ve also had mixed results with different media to start the bacteria. I settled on a < $10 standalone sponge running on a small air pump & airstone. This setup with a dose of dr Tim’s (or any other start bacteria) has consistently performed across 6 or 7 QTs. You have a very strange thing occurring. Might be time to try something different. Good luck.

Thanks, do you mean you keep this setup running in your DT’s sump to seed?

 

[DanielJameS]

I’ve also used a lot of the ammonia badges & they have become my go-to measurement device. I use a light behind the badge.

What type of lighting do you typically run over your QT? Standard FL hood type lighting or LED, or other?

 

[Gmj4409]

What type of lighting do you typically run over your QT? Standard FL hood type lighting or LED, or other?

I’ve left the new sponges in the refuge for one day and weeks & it didn’t seem to make a difference - both worked. I think key is moving air though a treated(Dr Tims or look alike) sponge. I now start it up a day or two before fish arrival & feed the water a little food. I then do a partial water change day 2. I may add a little more startup on day 3 depending on badge. I then go to a once every 5 or 6 day small WC.
I run whatever I have onhand for light. I have 3 QTs going now with 3 Low-end lights. I will hold a flashlight tilted behind the badge if I’m struggling with badge read.

 

[DanielJameS]

Yeah, this is pretty much exactly how I set up QT (with the exception of pre-seeding the sponge with dr Tim’s)

I’ve added a ton of extra bacteria though so I’m not going to continue to throw money at it.

I’ve been running my little marineland magnum charged with diatomaceous earth overnight (which I love by the way) to filter out any nasties and I’m going to do a big water change today but before I do, I’m going to grab a sample of the current water, head to the LFS explain what’s going on and see if they can give me sort of a “control” reading on free ammonia as opposed to the total the API is reading, and then I’ll have 3 different options to try and suss out what’s really happening here.

 

[Gmj4409]

Yeah, this is pretty much exactly how I set up QT (with the exception of pre-seeding the sponge with dr Tim’s)

I’ve added a ton of extra bacteria though so I’m not going to continue to throw money at it.

I’ve been running my little marineland magnum charged with diatomaceous earth overnight (which I love by the way) to filter out any nasties and I’m going to do a big water change today but before I do, I’m going to grab a sample of the current water, head to the LFS explain what’s going on and see if they can give me sort of a “control” reading on free ammonia as opposed to the total the API is reading, and then I’ll have 3 different options to try and suss out what’s really happening here.

Good idea. Please be sure to keep us posted! Thanks

 

[Smo]

The one addition I do to above is...the night prior I place my air driven sponge filter in a small bucket of fresh sea water with half the bacteria-in-a-bottle. In theory, the higher concentration helps the bacteria adhere to the sponge faster. This plus the remainder of the bottle go into the QT as I am filling it the next day.

 

[DanielJameS]

The one addition I do to above is...the night prior I place my air driven sponge filter in a small bucket of fresh sea water with half the bacteria-in-a-bottle. In theory, the higher concentration helps the bacteria adhere to the sponge faster. This plus the remainder of the bottle go into the QT as I am filling it the next day.

This is definitely a good idea which I will do for sure next time [emoji1360]

 

[DanielJameS]

Update for any that are following. LFS does not have a total/free ammonia test so their liquid read is the same [emoji58]

Going to do a nice big water change, continue to filter the water well and monitor closely

What do y’all think of this idea? Fill a small container with WC water, move the AQ sponge to that with a small bag of DT sand, an air stone and Power head and dose EXTRA ammonia to try to jump start colonization on the sponge without harming the fish. Maybe use poly in the QT in the meantime for mech filtration and leave the ceramic media. Does this theory hold water? (Pun intended)

 

[Gmj4409]

The one addition I do to above is...the night prior I place my air driven sponge filter in a small bucket of fresh sea water with half the bacteria-in-a-bottle. In theory, the higher concentration helps the bacteria adhere to the sponge faster. This plus the remainder of the bottle go into the QT as I am filling it the next day.

Good idea!

 

[Smo]

I believe I learned it from Humblefish.

 

[Smo]

Update for any that are following. LFS does not have a total/free ammonia test so their liquid read is the same [emoji58]

Going to do a nice big water change, continue to filter the water well and monitor closely

What do y’all think of this idea? Fill a small container with WC water, move the AQ sponge to that with a small bag of DT sand, an air stone and Power head and dose EXTRA ammonia to try to jump start colonization on the sponge without harming the fish. Maybe use poly in the QT in the meantime for mech filtration and leave the ceramic media. Does this theory hold water? (Pun intended)

The only issue I see here is the nitrifying bacteria grow pretty slowly—on the order of a month for a significant colony. You might consider adding more bacteria-in-a-bottle.

 

[DanielJameS]

The only issue I see here is the nitrifying bacteria grow pretty slowly—on the order of a month for a significant colony. You might consider adding more bacteria-in-a-bottle.

Right but I’m not starting from zero, there has to be SOME there, and my DT is 13+ months now.

To be honest, I’m a bit unenthused with the bottled bacteria after this experience. Especially after adding it in addition to “seeded” media.

It would appear I’ve delayed a cycle somehow, and I want to figure out why. I might have to transfer the fish to a more manageable tank with this going on. I have to get it stable before I can consistently treat.

 

[Smo]

Agreed. But I am still confused by your high ammonia. If ammonia is high and has been for a couple of weeks your nitrites should be high too.

 

[DanielJameS]

Agreed. But I am still confused by your high ammonia. If ammonia is high and has been for a couple of weeks your nitrites should be high too.

Right. In addition I’m also showing pink on salifert Nitrate (probably just shy of 5) so there is some type of cycle happening. I’m just confused by it.

 

[Smo]

And the nitrites (NO2) are currently at? Not that most folks care for a DT under normal conditions.

 

[brandon429]

you are dealing in lethal sustained (claimed) levels of ammonia. what sort of biological indications are you getting to confirm with

smell test, that much water in ammonia, if true, is dead skunk on highway aprox 300 yards with a light nosewind.

color test

opacity, take out a water sample and look through flashlit water on white background

fish opercular stress

if some are present/interesting.

if none are present, then doubt in test kit for an unknown reason can be legit poss


I once claimed that an ammonia test kit wasn't needed in reefing, are the meds you are using absolute known slayers of all possible tank bacteria? Ive never really seen a true wipeout scenario, though with meds I expect there to def be an ld50 level and if the amnts needed to medicate fish kill all nitrfiers, Id like to list that toxicity in our skip cycle aquarium thread. we want to know what the bacteria allow, and don't allow there.

 

[DanielJameS]

you are dealing in lethal sustained (claimed) levels of ammonia. what sort of biological indications are you getting to confirm with

smell test, that much water in ammonia, if true, is dead skunk on highway aprox 300 yards with a light nosewind.

color test

opacity, take out a water sample and look through flashlit water on white background

fish opercular stress

if some are present/interesting.

if none are present, then doubt in test kit for an unknown reason can be legit poss


I once claimed that an ammonia test kit wasn't needed in reefing, are the meds you are using absolute known slayers of all possible tank bacteria? Ive never really seen a true wipeout scenario, though with meds I expect there to def be an ld50 level and if the amnts needed to medicate fish kill all nitrfiers, Id like to list that toxicity in our skip cycle aquarium thread. we want to know what the bacteria allow, and don't allow there.

I’m not quite comprehending all of this but I’ll do my best:

I’m seeing some lethargy in the Angels. Staying more at the bottom, acting reclusive (however this could also be due to a parasite issue.) The other two small fish seem totally fine. Smell? None. Water a bit on the hazy side, even after upping filtration but no crazy smog look like a bad bacterial bloom.
Meds, the most recent med was general cure. I’m not sure if that had any impact on bacteria? No copper or anything like that. I was dosing chloroquine phosphate but that was a couple weeks ago, I’ve since stopped since I have this on going ammonia problems and I’d say I’ve changed out 100% of the water since last dosing CP.

What is “lethal sustained (claimed) levels of ammonia” are you saying it’s all fault in the test kit? Or is this some phenomenon caused by bacterial imbalance or something?

 

[DanielJameS]

Here are a couple pics. I just got back from doing some last minute Christmas shopping (round 1.)

I’ve been running the DE filter for almost 24 hours now. The tank looks absolutely fine. Here’s a pic of almost exactly what I see when looking at it:

And here’s an API ammonia test from about 5 min ago. Still alarmingly dark green. You’d think with DE running, anything skewing the test would be pulled out, but alas this is not the case and you can understand my confusion by looking at the first pic, everything “appears” fine.

I’ve got water ready so I’m just going to do about a 50% change in case. Ill switch out the DE for the carbon insert to see if that pulls any lingering test skewing nonsense out. I’ll monitor the fish after the change and see if they pep up or remain the same.

 

[brandon429]

Still not sure, these are just neat variables to consider maybe it w illuminate another detail for someone

What's interesting to me is the fish should be panting at the surface

Try and find online articles about ammonia toxicity levels for marine fish

It's pretty toxic I would expect a stronger smell too. It seems your ammonia should be compounding in measure, not just holding, if a lethality level has been surpassed by medication. Still not sure why two kits differ so much and not much impact for something this toxic is seen tankwide

So far, purely a test kit reading not really any other indicator, including a second kit

 

[saltyhog]

I've also had trouble with ammonia despite seeded sponges that had been in my sump for 6 weeks.

One thing that I've done is just mix CP in my water for the water change. That way you don't have to "start over" after the water change as the CP level doesn't change.