Help With Stubborn QT Ammonia...REALLY...really...stubborn

[cycled123]

Following along. Currently have the exact same issues going on. Except I have a copperband who started piping at the surface about 2 hours ago. Did 50% water change and still piping. ATI dark green, ammonia badge is either green or light blue depending on lighting. Prime has been added with each daily water change for the last 5 days which LFS recommended. Seeded sponge filter with air stone and added 3 different bacteria in a bottle. Feed once a day and copperband has eaten every day but today. Copperband has been in QT for seven days so far. Hydroplex dip was used before adding to QT. A Bartlett's Anthias died after being in QT for 12 hours with copperband. The Bartlett was breathing hard on acclimation and never seemed to recover. 3 Lyretail anthias were added on Tuesday (4 days ago). I did not have ammonia alert badge until Tuesday and looked green to me when added.

 

[DanielJameS]

So far, purely a test kit reading not really any other indicator, including a second kit

And the LFS (biggest one in town) was using API also [emoji849]

I thought for sure they’d have something to test free and total ammonia with the kind of business they do and prices they charge.

At this point, did a 50% water change, and switched the DE to carbon in an attempt to get as close to a full reset as possible. I’m thinking there may have been some odd bacterial or chemical cocktail created by whatever might have been left in the water from a previous dose of something. I’m fairly confident I don’t have 2-3ppm of ammonia, no way.

We shall see.

 

[Fudsey]

Have you tested your fresh salt water for ammonia? Maybe something with your rodi system is not removing it?

Just throwing that out there

 

[4FordFamily]

Have you tried buying another ammonia alert badge? I’ve heard of some not working properly in the past.

If that’s not it, it can take continued dr tims or bio spira dosing to aid.

Here’s my thread, I’ve done this with 3 QT and that badge has been solid yellow no matter how much I’ve overstocked the QT.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/n...pira-dr-tims-and-bacteria-in-a-bottle.330328/

My other guess is that you had an older bottle of Dr Tims that was useless, it happens depending on how long it’s been on the shelf. I’ve had VERY good luck with it, it worked like magic and I was a SKEPTIC.

 

[DanielJameS]

Have you tested your fresh salt water for ammonia? Maybe something with your rodi system is not removing it?

Just throwing that out there

Good call because it’s something people often overlook, but yes I did yesterday. Tap actually doesn’t show ammonia either.

 

[Fudsey]

Good to hear but then again, sad because that would have been an easy fix. I cannot imagine what is causing this spike. I would try a different test kit if possible like RedSea or Nyos just for confirmation. Is their no local reefers that have different test kits you could "Borrow"? If not send me a sample and I'll test it with my RS kit.

 

[DanielJameS]

Have you tried buying another ammonia alert badge? I’ve heard of some not working properly in the past.

If that’s not it, it can take continued dr tims or bio spira dosing to aid.

Here’s my thread, I’ve done this with 3 QT and that badge has been solid yellow no matter how much I’ve overstocked the QT.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/n...pira-dr-tims-and-bacteria-in-a-bottle.330328/

My other guess is that you had an older bottle of Dr Tims that was useless, it happens depending on how long it’s been on the shelf. I’ve had VERY good luck with it, it worked like magic and I was a SKEPTIC.

This is sound advice. Truth be told, when I started up this round of QT (11.15.17) I had a badge left over that was only about 4 months old that was soaking in RODI, but it made me iffy with the grayish color so I bought a brand new one about 4 days later. I forgot where I saw it, but there was a 3 pack available somewhere, I should probably just invest in that to have extras around.

I have heard of bad dr tims. My understanding is it’s an “active” vs inactive bacteria (I.e. Seachem stability) so depending on what it was exposed to you’re right, it could have been useless.

I guess the troubling thing for me is, I went OVER THE TOP this time around to ensure that I had seeded media and extra bottled bacteria and I’m dealing with this a month + after startup of the QT. When I went fallow last March, I had every fish in my display at the time (which was quite a few) in a 20L and had some ammonia issues, but never even got above a lime green on an API kit, meds or no meds so something is definitely amiss here.

Im thinking the best thing to do here is get back to basics, reset the tank as much as possible, filter the water as clean as possible with zero medication although my flame angel has a spot of ich, I think that fish will be fine. It’s been with me for 8 months, QT’d when I got it for over 45 days, FW dipped countless times, tank transfers etc, the thing is a beast. The Swallowtail I have looks healthy otherwise and is eating. I’m going to let things settle out with some fresh saltwater in there and carbon running and watch the behavior. The behavior of the fish is actually what led to me testing and posting this. After enough times of this you just start to know when something is “off” regardless of the colors on a badge.

As an aside that I’ll say again, I presume if I actually had 2-3 ppm ammonia, the fish would be in ROUGH shape. My guess is I have something closer to the “alert” or “alarm” on the Seachem and API is lying to me. The fish seem ok, they just don’t seem comfortable, and that’d make sense with the actual badge reading.

 

[DanielJameS]

Also...Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to everyone! Funny...I started this thread as just a rant about the ammonia badge and seeding media but it’s interesting to see how many people have had similar issues.

Also, if anyone else owns a marineland magnum filter and wants a secondary pleated cartridge for rotational purposes, go on over to the petsmart website, they are selling them for under $6 with the option to pick up in store. They want $14.99 in store and over $20 at Petco, absolute no brainer and cheaper than amazon. That is my Secret Santa To y’all [emoji23]

 

[Fudsey]

I use one all the time in my display if things look cloudy, does wonders even without DE in it. Thanks for the tip but I got 2 good one's right now and Petsmart isn't easily accessible.

Merry Christmas to you as well ! !

 

[DanielJameS]

I believe I learned it from Humblefish.

Who?????

J/K - @Humblefish is the Sensei...and and most of us are nothing more than the grasshoppppppas

[emoji1374]

 

[DanielJameS]

Following along. Currently have the exact same issues going on. Except I have a copperband who started piping at the surface about 2 hours ago. Did 50% water change and still piping. ATI dark green, ammonia badge is either green or light blue depending on lighting. Prime has been added with each daily water change for the last 5 days which LFS recommended. Seeded sponge filter with air stone and added 3 different bacteria in a bottle. Feed once a day and copperband has eaten every day but today. Copperband has been in QT for seven days so far. Hydroplex dip was used before adding to QT. A Bartlett's Anthias died after being in QT for 12 hours with copperband. The Bartlett was breathing hard on acclimation and never seemed to recover. 3 Lyretail anthias were added on Tuesday (4 days ago). I did not have ammonia alert badge until Tuesday and looked green to me when added.

Hey, so sorry i didn’t see this right away! The R2R app is a little funky with all the other comments, but this SHOULDNT be missed, especially since copperbands can be sensitive. Folks please jump in on this. Sounds like you are dealing with a similar situation and I’m starting to suspect prime as a culprit in swings between badge/liquid. In the past prime has distorted my liquid readings just not this bad, are you treating with anything? I think it’d help others to know what combos (even when you think it’s out of the water) might be causing this.

I’m going to go out on a limb to say stear clear of prime (depending on severity) it’s your first instinct to detoxify the ammonia with something you feel confident about, and I’m guilty of this myself but nothing makes the fish happier than a good old fashioned water change, it’s apparent immediately.

I have also dosed prime, although I’ve taken steps to try to strip any medication out of the water FIRST trying to prevent bad Interactions.

I’ve also run experiments with test kits just dumping a bunch of prime in clean saltwater before testing and haven’t gotten the same readings so it’s quite perplexing.

Prime (ammo lock etc) was mentioned today as well at my LFS from a guy who was asked to set up a jellyfish tank with no substrate or additional media. I’m seeing a trend with it, just didn’t know it could lock up standard ammonia, convert them to ammonium and show multiple ppm on standard liquid test kits.

Diagnosis is difficult. Fish are like your dog, you know there’s something wrong and you wish they could just tell you, but you’re left to guess without reacting too harshly but at the same time harshly if needed, it’s a tight rope.

 

[DanielJameS]

This feeds into a whole different discussion about inexperienced folks out there telling everyone to tear apart their tank and yank all their fish and quarantine at the first sign of parasitic symptoms without the person on the other end having any clue what they’re getting themselves into never having quarantined before, and experiencing the vast array of obstacles (many that will kill the fish) but that’s a whole different thread...

It’s ironic that most people’s first experience with QT is because they never did in the first place (and now paying for it two-fold) IMO the best place to start QT js not needing to, just so you can experience the ups and downs, so many of which have been highlighted in this thread by multiple people.

 

[DanielJameS]

Merry Christmas Eve to all, a little Update and a new theory:

After 50% + water change and running carbon for 14 hours my latest API ammonia test is what would be expected, somewhere around 1ppm

Now admittedly I did not realize carbon DOES NOT remove prime from the water, I guess it was just a poor assumption on my part. I always use carbon and/or poly to pull other medications out of the water but according to Seachem, it can be used with carbon.

I have dosed small amounts of prime in the past several weeks on and off when I thought there may be a harmful rise in ammonia, but before dosing a med I’ve always run carbon and poly to try and neutralize it not knowing it was having no effect on the prime in the water.

So I may indeed have some ammonia in the tank, but there is no way to know how much is free ammonia and how much is either bound by prime or ammonium other than trusting what my badge reads.

New course of action is try everything to get tank down to undetectable levels via API (I hope someone bought me salt for Christmas) and forego all Prime useage so I can see what’s actually happening. Figure out what the heck is going on with this cycle and rectify that before doing anything else whether that be adding more bacteria, sand from the DT, not sure what to implement.

In the future I think a test kit (maybe the Seachem version) that measures free and total ammonia needs to be on hand for situations like this. Otherwise you’re sorta driving down a backroad with your headlights off.

Here are some pics:

(Left to right: Pre WC>Post WC>Freshly mixed SW>DT)

Ammonia badge today:

 

[4FordFamily]

This feeds into a whole different discussion about inexperienced folks out there telling everyone to tear apart their tank and yank all their fish and quarantine at the first sign of parasitic symptoms without the person on the other end having any clue what they’re getting themselves into never having quarantined before, and experiencing the vast array of obstacles (many that will kill the fish) but that’s a whole different thread...

It’s ironic that most people’s first experience with QT is because they never did in the first place (and now paying for it two-fold) IMO the best place to start QT js not needing to, just so you can experience the ups and downs, so many of which have been highlighted in this thread by multiple people.

I’ll just say this — there are threads that spell out how to quarantine without incident, Humblefish is the author of several.

Stuff can still happen but it’s a safe bet!

 

[DanielJameS]

I’ll just say this — there are threads that spell out how to quarantine without incident, Humblefish is the author of several.

Stuff can still happen but it’s a safe bet!

I’ve actually learned most of what I know from his posts and stickies, but I bet I’m not the only one who has followed the directions assembling a boxed piece of furniture to a tee and found out in the end that panel “J” that holds the drawer rails is on backwards [emoji23]

I’m not referring to anyone on this forum anyway, too much knowledge here. Let’s just say it’s a Facebook group (to remain nameless) with a lot of blind leading the blind going on.

 

[cycled123]

Unfortunately lost the copperband sometime during the night. I had dosed Prime again last night because badge was light blue/light green again depending on light. I have read and was attempting to follow multiple quarantine articles. This is my second time setting up QT. Last year when I was setting up my nano tank I used live sand and rock though and was told that was a no no. We used Prime a couple times the first week but then didn't have to. Only lost 1 fish out of 6 and that was due to an accident and not disease. Right now I am in the process of setting up 180g tank and wanted to get a jump on QT so I could do a longer QT and have a couple fish ready to go once the big tank was ready. I had an airstone driven sponge filter in my sump of my nano tank for one month and used Microlift special blend as a boost to my DT sump. I set up the QT tank with this sponge filter, HOB filter, jabeo nano powerhead and HOB skimmer (not necessary but was just sitting there from before we had a sump on DT) I also added microbe lift and To Little Fishes BioPronto. QT was set up for 3 days and then added a Copperband and Bartletts Anthias along with Two Little Fishes Bactiv8 and Hydroplex. Bartlett Anthias did not look well when released from bag (Fish store is two hours away). Drip acclimated for 1 hour and then added to QT. Bartlett died the next morning. I never saw anything obvious wrong with it. Ammonia was 0.25 or less with ATI at this time, 0 nitrite, <5 Nitrate. Copperband ate and was very active for 10 days. Performed 4 waterchanges during this time but ammonia was 0.5 so added 2 doses of prime 48 hrs apart along with all the bacteria products. Nitrite still 0 and Nitrate 5. Added carbon to QT day 4. Added 3 lyretail anthias from Divers Den on Tuesday the 19th after dipping in hydroplex for 10min and ammonia badge. Ammonia badge was light green the morning after adding so added another dose of Prime. That evening Ammonia badge was reading in the light blue range so completed a waterchange with treating 12 gal new water. (QT is 20g not sure if I mentioned that) ATI was reading very Green. Repeated this for next 3 days. Badge always reading lt blue or lt green. Copperband was listless and did not eat yesterday and began "piping" at the surface in the evening. Copperband also had a few brown almost bruise looking spots and two white spots on fin. I pulled carbon and dosed 1 dose of metroplex and Kanaplex. Copperband looked to have more spots on fins so changed directions and completed a 12g water change then added 1ml of Cupramine. It was after 11pm and as my kids home Christmas was in the AM so I went to bed after observing for about 30minutes. Copperband was dead when got up at 6am. The 3 lyretails are swimming fine and eating. I do not see any spots or marks on them. I added a dose of prime because ammonia badge light blue. Will complete a waterchange once water is at temperature. Now I don't know if I should add Prime. ATI is very green. Should I continue to add Cupramine in case the copperband had something? How should I proceed? I am at a loss... And please if I did something wrong in all this please let me know. I don't want to keep killing fish. This is the first time I attempted to dose any medications in saltwater. I have in Fresh.

 

[DanielJameS]

Ah bummer sorry to hear that. Regarding the Anthias, I’m not sure a two hour car ride should have been that much of a stressor if the fish was super healthy at the store considering that when in transit from shipping, it can be sometimes 24 hours In a bag, that is unless of course there was some kind of major temp drop.

Also, I would keep your QT at a lower salinity, something like 1.018-1.019 (if you aren’t already) and forgo the drip acclimation. If you’re getting a fish from a store it’s usually kept a bit higher and online orders I receive are always in the 1.017-1.020 department. That added stress of drip acclimating in a small container or bag or whatever is just unnecessary. I’ve had much better results just keeping the salinity low, floating to temp and dropping right in, I haven’t had a fish yet that died because of a couple point drop in salinity, you just don’t want to throw them into increased saline conditions.

Copperbands are kind of sensitive which is why I swore them off for now, and the ammonia could very well have been the culprit, but as I’ve stated above, Prime clearly messes with API kits so I’d almost rule out any reading from those.

It’s been my experience that you don’t even want to let that badge get light blue. When I started this thread I had a slight tinge of green on it which should be your water change red flag.

All in all it sounds like you’re dealing with the exact same situation as me with the delayed cycle of some kind, so believe me I get your frustration.

How long were these fish at the store and were they healthy as can be? Are the stores tanks clean and trustworthy?

 

[cycled123]

The salinity of our tank matched the salinity in bag. I always check. Maybe I will forgo the drip. Do you dip at all? The copperband and bartlett were only at store for 1 day. My husband had the bartlett reserved. And yes tanks have always been clean and well kept. This is first saltwater we purchased from there but have purchased freshwater in the past with no issue. My husband said both were swimming in the tank and he saw no issues. We have been doing large water changes everyday for the last 5 days and the badge has never gone less then lt green.

 

[DanielJameS]

The salinity of our tank matched the salinity in bag. I always check. Maybe I will forgo the drip. Do you dip at all? The copperband and bartlett were only at store for 1 day. My husband had the bartlett reserved. And yes tanks have always been clean and well kept. This is first saltwater we purchased from there but have purchased freshwater in the past with no issue. My husband said both were swimming in the tank and he saw no issues. We have been doing large water changes everyday for the last 5 days and the badge has never gone less then lt green.

I never drip acclimate if the salinity matches or is slightly higher than my QT. You can check PH to make sure there isn’t a crazy swing there.

It could have just been stress if the fish was only there a day, it could have been a pre-existing issue unseen to the naked eye, the ammonia, a multitude of things.

I just did a couple experiments here. I mixed 2 drops of prime with a qt water vial and left one alone. The prime vial turned yellow so I assume it’s doing its job. To add to the confusion, I’m getting 5ppm nitrates on salifert which would seem to suggest they were 10 before a 50% water change. 0 ppm nitrites.

I’m at a total loss. It’s as if something is adding ammonia to the water at a high clip (besides the fish) yet there is clearly some nitrification happening. I also cleaned everything thoroughly last night during the WC so I’m stumped.

 

[cycled123]

Just thought I would update. I stopped dosing prime and relied on waterchanges and added bacteria daily. Ammonia did get high (1) one day but tank finally appears to have cycled. Ammonia and nitrite 0 and nitrate 5-10. I am now doing e/o 8g waterchanges. I really don't know why took so long. Now that I know (I sincerely hope!!!) that the tank is cycled I will use prime only if badge goes above yellow.