How long to win the battle when using UV for dinos ?

[KonradTO]

Now dosing 2 ml per day and I’m not even sure there are diatoms but dinos are worse than ever.

Since testing today I am officially in the « zero Club ». O nitrates and 0 phosphates. Sigh. Now I have to find out how to bring them up.

Does this ever end ?

In my case I dosed between 1 and 2 ppm every day for 2 weeks. Then 3 days blackout, and after no dinos to be seen. But nutrients remained high all the time. Once you blackout your nutrients will skyrocket as well (nitrates went from 5ppm to 25ppm). In the meanwhile i dosed phyto, increased pH a bit with a skimmer. I don't know if it is a combination of things or just silicate dosing that after the blackout let the diatoms without competition. Now I can see diatoms growing on my glass so I reduced to 30% the dosing. Sponges are going crazy

 

[Idech]

In my case I dosed between 1 and 2 ppm every day for 2 weeks. Then 3 days blackout, and after no dinos to be seen. But nutrients remained high all the time. Once you blackout your nutrients will skyrocket as well (nitrates went from 5ppm to 25ppm). In the meanwhile i dosed phyto, increased pH a bit with a skimmer. I don't know if it is a combination of things or just silicate dosing that after the blackout let the diatoms without competition. Now I can see diatoms growing on my glass so I reduced to 30% the dosing. Sponges are going crazy

What corals do you have and how did they do with blackout ?

 

[KonradTO]

What corals do you have and how did they do with blackout ?

I only have easy corals. Lps and softies. They usually shrink/close during blackouts. Also leathers and gorgonians shed for one week once light is on again. After few days everything looks much better than before with better PE. Blackouts also stimulate pods proliferation
But I am sure there is people here who did the same with more difficult corals. I think that once dinos start to recede blackout is actually useful because it "resets" most algae, giving a chance to other species to take the dino's place.
I forgot to mention that I blew off quite a lot of dead algae from the rocks after the blackout, to avoid gha from taking the place of dinos. When I blow rocks I use an airline near the return pump so bubbles can "pick up" detritus and bring it to the surface where it gets skimmed by the overflow

 

[Idech]

I dosed Neonitro (35 ml) and Neophos (10 ml) this morning. One hour later, nitrates were reading at 6 ppm. Phosphates, it’s hard to tell with the Salifert test when it’s that close to zero. I would say maybe 0,03 ppm.

I’ll test again tomorrow morning to measure daily consumption.

I’m also dosing Microbacter 7, which is said to help when used with Neophos and Neonitro.

Still dosing sodium silicate, 2 ml per day.

When I’m certain nitrates and phos are stable and high enough, I think I’m going to try a 3 day blackout. I’m afraid for the corals but this has to end someday…

 

[KonradTO]

I dosed Neonitro (35 ml) and Neophos (10 ml) this morning. One hour later, nitrates were reading at 6 ppm. Phosphates, it’s hard to tell with the Salifert test when it’s that close to zero. I would say maybe 0,03 ppm.

I’ll test again tomorrow morning to measure daily consumption.

I’m also dosing Microbacter 7, which is said to help when used with Neophos and Neonitro.

Still dosing sodium silicate, 2 ml per day.

When I’m certain nitrates and phos are stable and high enough, I think I’m going to try a 3 day blackout. I’m afraid for the corals but this has to end someday…

When you say 2ml sodium silicate, what % of SiO2 is the solution? Do you know how much ppm is that?

 

[Idech]

When you say 2ml sodium silicate, what % of SiO2 is the solution? Do you know how much ppm is that?

It’s a 37,5% solution. I believe 0,8 ml is 1 ppm so 2 ml would be a little over 2 ppm.

correction : 2 ml is 5 ppm. It seems too much but I’m not having much diatoms and dinos are rising. Maybe I should lower the dose to 2 ppm from now on.

 

[KonradTO]

It’s a 37,5% solution. I believe 0,8 ml is 1 ppm so 2 ml would be a little over 2 ppm.

correction : 2 ml is 5 ppm. It seems too much but I’m not having much diatoms and dinos are rising. Maybe I should lower the dose to 2 ppm from now on.

If you haven't done water changes in a while it could be that some missing element is limiting diatoms growth. Or simply your tank is consuming that much silicate. For me it took 2 weeks of dosing every day 1-2 ppm for having a diatom bloom. And I can only tell from the side glass and the skimmer. It happened suddenly overnight for no apparent reason.
I wouldn't worry about not having a diatom bloom, it is far more important to see your dinos slowing down, that's when it reached the tipping point for me. Last month after cleaning the sandbed it would take less than 24h to have dinos growing back on the sand and in 2 days they would be as strong as before. After dosing for few days I could clearly see dinos growing much slower. Maybe try phyto dosing too, I cannot tell how much that affected the result, but its worth trying. Also before doing the blackout remember to get rid of as much dino as you can, blow the rocks and filter water and the first layer of sand affected by dino with a 5nm sock, so you are not forced to add new saltwater. Also make sure that there are enough nutrients (but not too much) before the blackout. You want to have the perfect conditions for the new algae to take over dinos.
I kept dosing silicate and alk even during blackout because I had alk at around 7 and I wanted to increase pH significantly (I increased from 7.8 to 8.2)

 

[Idech]

If you haven't done water changes in a while it could be that some missing element is limiting diatoms growth.

I did a 33% WC (25 gallons) 2 weeks ago and it resulted in dinos being a lot worse. That was a mistake. I did it because some of the corals were looking miserable.

I wouldn't worry about not having a diatom bloom, it is far more important to see your dinos slowing down, that's when it reached the tipping point for me.

Thanks, that’s good to know. I won’t worry about not having a diatom bloom anymore. Would you keep dosing 5 ppm or go back to 2 ppm ?

Maybe try phyto dosing too, I cannot tell how much that affected the result, but its worth trying.

I dose 10-15 ml phyto everyday. I started a few days ago. It’s probably not alive anymore though; it’s been in my fridge for months.

blow the rocks and filter water and the first layer of sand affected by dino with a 5nm sock, so you are not forced to add new saltwater.

I don’t have a sump or socks. Would using a turkey baster do the job ?

Also make sure that there are enough nutrients (but not too much) before the blackout.

I plan to keep nitrates between 5-10 but phosphates are hard to test with Salifert. I suppose they will rise accordingly.

Should I dose a little AFR to boost amino acids before the black out ?

Thanks for your help ?

 

[gbru316]

I just beat prorocentrum in about 2 weeks.

1. UV sterilizer rated much higher than I needed - a 24W in-tank Green Killing Machine I got from the local petco (or petsmart, I don't remember). It's cheap (comparatively -- $110), it's ugly. But it got the job done. Comes with it's own pump, too.

2. Scrubbed rocks (with a toothbrush) and stirred sand several times a day. Including after lights out.

3. Changed lighting spectrum to blue only.

4. Added pods -- 4 jars of Eco Pods from Algae Barn

5. Raised and kept Po4 between 0.04 and 0.1, No3 between 10 and 15

6. Stopped all coral food, vitamins, and amino acids.

7. 36 hour blackout

8. Dino-X. Used exactly as instructed on the label. Did not see any harm or irritation of my livestock.


Steps 1-7 helped a lot, but the Dino X was the knockout blow. They were invisible the day after the first dose. I dosed twice more just to be safe. I've since resumed my normal process with light, food, additives, etc. It's been over a week since I've seen any dinoflagellates in my tank.

 

[KonradTO]

I did a 33% WC (25 gallons) 2 weeks ago and it resulted in dinos being a lot worse. That was a mistake. I did it because some of the corals were looking miserable.

Yes I have been there too, stuff looked terrible and I did a WC, but that does not help. Unfortunately my understanding from the many posts of the dino thread is that dinos struggle when not doing WCs because some elements, likely Iron, are necessary for them to maintain such a fast growth rate.

Thanks, that’s good to know. I won’t worry about not having a diatom bloom anymore. Would you keep dosing 5 ppm or go back to 2 ppm ?

In all honesty, I am far from an experienced reefer. Similarly to you, I had to face the dino problem in my tank and I spent a lot of time in the dino and in the amphidinium threads. I am also fairly new in the forum but I seemed to understand that @taricha is the authority here concerning dinos, maybe he has some specific suggestions regarding the silicate dosing amount.
What I got from the thread is that overdosing silicates should not cause any relevant issues aside from a big diatom bloom. Also it interferes with the phosphate photocolorimetric tests like the hanna checker, showing much higher P04 concentration when dosing over 2ppm silicates. Having said this, my feeling is that I would keep the dosing between 1 and 2 ppm, and slowly increase by 1 ppm every week until you see dinos slowing down.

I dose 10-15 ml phyto everyday. I started a few days ago. It’s probably not alive anymore though; it’s been in my fridge for months.

The good thing about living phyto is that they also will compete with the dinos, and part of them will feed the microfauna which feeds on dino. You can easily keep dosing dead phyto but keep an eye on nutrients.

I don’t have a sump or socks. Would using a turkey baster do the job ?

I suggest strongly to get a 5nm sock. They are cheap and its fundamental because you can take dinos out withoud during water changes. You don't need a sump, just siphon water and dinos in a bucket inside the sock and then put the water back in the tank, careful to not get any of the dino dirt back in the water.

I plan to keep nitrates between 5-10 but phosphates are hard to test with Salifert. I suppose they will rise accordingly.

Should I dose a little AFR to boost amino acids before the black out ?

I would not dose ammino, apparently they can boost dinos. Also amminos are useful (maybe) for the corals, I am not entirely sure that such stuff actually is useful in newish tanks.

Thanks for your help ?

Don't worry, I am not sure my experience with dinos can help you, but I hope it does. I know well how it feels to put all that effort in making the tank nice and then dinos smash all that effort and kill stuff.
I lost my first fish, a watchman goby, and several frags due to dinos. Hopefully it won't happen again.

 

[Idech]

UV sterilizer rated much higher than I needed - a 24W in-tank Green Killing Machine I got from the local petco (or petsmart, I don't remember). It's cheap (comparatively -- $110), it's ugly. But it got the job done. Comes with it's own pump, too.

I stopped my UV (not oversized though but supposed to be enough) because most people seem to agree it doesn’t work on prorocentrum. It will also kill diatoms that I’m trying to grow.

Dino-X. Used exactly as instructed on the label. Did not see any harm or irritation of my livestock.

I have Dino-X. I got it as my last resort plan. I’ll use it if blackout doesn’t do a complete job. I’m glad to knowmit didn’t hurt any of your corals.

Added pods -- 4 jars of Eco Pods from Algae Barn

Yeah, I’ve been trying to get some but all there is around is 6 oz bottler for 35$ each.

 

[gbru316]

I stopped my UV (not oversized though but supposed to be enough) because most people seem to agree it doesn’t work on prorocentrum. It will also kill diatoms that I’m trying to grow.


I have Dino-X. I got it as my last resort plan. I’ll use it if blackout doesn’t do a complete job. I’m glad to knowmit didn’t hurt any of your corals.


Yeah, I’ve been trying to get some but all there is around is 6 oz bottler for 35$ each.

The UV was absolutely critical in reducing the number of visible prorocentrum (verified by microscope) in my tank. The reason people say it's not effective against prorocentrum is that prorocentrum is reluctant to enter the water column. That's where the blackout comes in.

The blackout drives the dinoflagellates off of whatever substrate they're on in search of greener pastures. At that point, they're sucked into the UV sterilizer and destroyed. If you're not using UV, you're probably not going to have much luck.

Get that UV back online before trying the blackout. Then, a few shots of dino X should do the trick.


I have absolutely no scientific (or otherwise) basis for my hypotheses about dino-x, but I suspect it isn't enough to clear an entire infestation. But used in combination with other methods, it's seemingly effective, at least against prorocentrum. I also suspect that people who've had problems with dino-x have not perfectly followed the instructions. Either by not accurately determining the proper dose, not turning off/removing GAC, dosing too much out of frustration, not waiting 2 days for the next dose, etc.

 

[Idech]

I have absolutely no scientific (or otherwise) basis for my hypotheses about dino-x, but I suspect it isn't enough to clear an entire infestation. But used in combination with other methods, it's seemingly effective, at least against prorocentrum. I also suspect that people who've had problems with dino-x have not perfectly followed the instructions. Either by not accurately determining the proper dose, not turning off/removing GAC, dosing too much out of frustration, not waiting 2 days for the next dose, etc.

That makes sense, I’ll try it and let you know.

 

[taricha]

maybe he has some specific suggestions regarding the silicate dosing amount.

several tenths to a couple of ppm SiO2 is fine. 1ppm SiO2 is a convenient target.

The UV was absolutely critical in reducing the number of visible prorocentrum (verified by microscope) in my tank. The reason people say it's not effective against prorocentrum is that prorocentrum is reluctant to enter the water column. That's where the blackout comes in.

The blackout drives the dinoflagellates off of whatever substrate they're on in search of greener pastures. At that point, they're sucked into the UV sterilizer and destroyed. If you're not using UV, you're probably not going to have much luck.

Get that UV back online before trying the blackout.

I agree with all of this, and think it is good advice.

 

[Idech]

So today nitrate levels were at 5,4 ppm, 0,6 ppm less than the day before, when I dosed Neonitro and Neophos. So I dosed again the same amount (35 ml and 10 ml respectively).

If nitrates levels are okay tomorrow (should be around 9 ppm), I will start the three day blackout. So we shall see how it goes in a little while…

 

[KonradTO]

So today nitrate levels were at 5,4 ppm, 0,6 ppm less than the day before, when I dosed Neonitro and Neophos. So I dosed again the same amount (35 ml and 10 ml respectively).

If nitrates levels are okay tomorrow (should be around 9 ppm), I will start the three day blackout. So we shall see how it goes in a little while…

Are you observing a decrease in dinos growth finally?

 

[Idech]

Are you observing a decrease in dinos growth finally?

Not yet, really.

I started the blackout yesterday, for three days. I’m still dosing silicates, Neonitro, Neophos, plancton and Microbacter 7, in hopes it will grow enough competing microbiology.

I’m also running a UV, as was recommended.

@gbru316 did you cover the tank during the blackout or just let it be without any light ? I covered the tank with a dark bed sheet but I’m afraid it’s cruel for the fish. When I fed this morning they were all hiding as if it was night.

I would like to remove the bed sheet tomorrow, after 24 hours but I’m afraid it will make the whole process ineffective. But keep the lights off for another 48 hours.

What do you think ?

 

[gbru316]

Not yet, really.

I started the blackout yesterday, for three days. I’m still dosing silicates, Neonitro, Neophos, plancton and Microbacter 7, in hopes it will grow enough competing microbiology.

I’m also running a UV, as was recommended.

@gbru316 did you cover the tank during the blackout or just let it be without any light ? I covered the tank with a dark bed sheet but I’m afraid it’s cruel for the fish. When I fed this morning they were all hiding as if it was night.

I would like to remove the bed sheet tomorrow, after 24 hours but I’m afraid it will make the whole process ineffective. But keep the lights off for another 48 hours.

What do you think ?

l didn’t cover it, but I didn’t feel like the blackout was particularly useful for me.

There’s a large window that gets indirect light right next to my tank. If I had to do it again, I’d cover it.

 

[divetoday]

I moved an existing tank to a new tank and had a huge explosion. Dr Tim’s and raised the nutrients but what really worked for me was constant blowing and stirring and ZTHEN THE us.

 

[Idech]

I moved an existing tank to a new tank and had a huge explosion. Dr Tim’s and raised the nutrients but what really worked for me was constant blowing and stirring and ZTHEN THE us.

Did you have prorocentrum dinos as well ?