How safe is copper?

[Big G]

If you are like me, when these things happen, I get information overload problems. So here's the most recent updates for treatment based on Humblefish's vast experience. It's important to note that Humblefish found that a bath with Arcriflavine "increased" survival rates of even severely velvet infected fish. Below is a post from his info with the new info bolded and underlined to help. You've got some beautiful fish there. All my best and hopes.

~ Gary

Emergency Treatment for Marine Velvet Disease

I recently acquired 3 fish - Longnose Butterfly, Kole Tang, Naso Tang - with velvet. None showed visible physical symptoms right away, but they all came from a tank where velvet was known to be present so I just patiently waited. Before & after pictures will follow immediately after this write-up.

In short, the Butterflyfish didn’t make it; however the two tangs did. The only difference in their treatment was I used formalin (with Methylene Blue) on the butterfly in a bath solution, whereas the tangs got acriflavine (with NO Methylene Blue). It’s also worth noting that the butterfly & Kole Tang showed symptoms the worst, whereas the Naso only had moderate visible symptoms. Tangs are also generally considered hardier than butterflyfish, so there’s that factor to consider as well. Anyway, here is the treatment I used on them:

The short version:

• 5 minute freshwater dip
• Immediately afterwards, perform a chemical bath (in saltwater matching SG/temp the fish came from). You have two options:

1. Acriflavine (preferred) - Do the bath for 75-90 minutes, but remove the fish immediately at the first sign of distress. Aerate heavily both before & during the bath, and temperature control the water. The following products contain acriflavine: Acriflavine-MS and Ruby Reef Rally. DO NOT mix acriflavine with any other chemicals.
2. Formalin - Do the bath for 30-60 minutes max, but remove the fish immediately at the first sign of distress. Aerate heavily both before & during the bath, and temperature control the water. The following products contain formalin: Formalin-MS, Quick Cure, Aquarium Solutions Ich-X, Kordon Rid-Ich Plus. Use protection (rubber gloves, face mask, eye protection, etc.) whenever handling formalin as it is a known carcinogen! However, you can add Methylene Blue to the formalin bath (1 capful per 2-3 gallons of bath water.)

• After the bath, place the fish in a QT pre-dosed at 80mg/gal using Chloroquine phosphate. In theory, copper (exs. Cupramine, Coppersafe, Copper Power) should work just as well as CP. However, due to how fast velvet can reproduce you don’t have the luxury of slowly ramping up the copper level as is normally advised. Therefore, the fish needs to be placed in a QT with copper already at minimum therapeutic levels. This is the advantage CP has over copper in this particular situation.
• While in QT, use a wide spectrum antibiotic (exs. Seachem Kanaplex, Furan-2) for the first week to ward off any possible bacterial infections. Secondary bacterial infections are very common in fish with preexisting parasitic infestations such as velvet.
• Keep the fish in CP or copper (at therapeutic levels) for one month. However, you can transfer the fish into a non-medicated holding tank for observation after just two weeks (explained below). DO NOT lower the CP or copper level before transferring.

 

[Phlynamjax]

Updates:

Is there a such thing as weak velvet? It has been four days since I first noticed the symptom. I have not loss any fish yet. This morning, I saw bunch of larger white spot on my gold flake angel. It was flaky "dangling" from the body. I was really concerned so I came home early and all my fishes significantly improved on their physical symptoms. My semilarvatus butterfly and goldflake angel whom had worst symptom has clear body with few minor spots on tail fin. Both my regal angels have clear body. I checked this by turning off all my lights and turn on blue light to see any white spots. They still eats like pig and very active. I am still very cautious and will run copper for next 30 days. I was extremely stressed for last 4 days. But glad to see improvements.

 

[Phlynamjax]

Question on moving back inverts. I removed all my inverts (mostly snails and cleaner shrimps) to QT prior to dosing copper in my DT. How long should I keep them in QT before moving them back to DT? I do not have any fish in QT. I want to completely eradicate velvet and ich from my tank. I am planning to keep copper at therapeutic level for 30 days. And probably another 30 days to remove copper from my DT. So is 60 days enough?

 

[Big G]

Cuprisorb media will remove copper from the water, but there’s no way to remove copper from rock, sand. The tank and equipment will need to be washed with bleach to remove biofilm, rinsed twice and dried. Then washed again with vinegar to precipitate the copper into a harmless form, rinsed twice and dried.

 

[4FordFamily]

Cuprisorb media will remove copper from the water, but there’s no way to remove copper from rock, sand. The tank and equipment will need to be washed with bleach to remove biofilm, rinsed twice and dried. Then washed again with vinegar to precipitate the copper into a harmless form, rinsed twice and dried.

It’s possible to remove nearly all of the copper, but it’s an absolute pain in the neck! My reef tank has been a giant quarantine 5 times over the years, each time returning to a vibrant reef, right now housing 3 clams, even!

It is, again, a pain, however. Here’s the thread on this:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-to-remove-copper-from-dt.326316/

 

[Phlynamjax]

I did some research on the forum. Some people recommend 14 days in copper and others recommend 30 days in copper. What many days should I keep up the copper level? I also saw Humblefish's post indicating therapeutic range of curpramine is 0.4mg/L to 0.5mg/L. Is this mean as long as my copper level stays between those range, it is ok?

 

[Big G]

14 days and then you have to move the fish(s) to a clean fresh tank. And observe for another 14-30 days. This option appeals the most to those with fish sensitive to the copper and are struggling physically or that are known to be sensitive to copper. Or you leave them in the same tank for 30 days.
Yep. Keep it as close to .5 (Cupramine) as possible. Usually not a problem unless you are doing a lot of water changes, filter pad cleaning, etc. Just have to be careful that when you take out tank water that is at therapeutic levels, to replace with water at the same level. Top off evaporation as normal with RODI.

 

[Buh Buh Bacon]

Depends what kind you are using. In this case the concentration and brand make enormous differences...

 

[Phlynamjax]

Update:
So far everyone is doing good. Everyone had clean body for few days. However, I see some new ich like spot on my butterfly and regal angel's tail and fin. Is this possible? I am 100% sure this isn't lymph. I am going on 10 days since cupramine is at therapeutic level (0.5mg/l). I test everyday, sometimes two times per day to ensure the copper level. I am using salifert test kit.

 

[Humblefish]

@Phlynamjax Can you post of photo of this?

 

[Phlynamjax]

It is really hard to take pictures, but I will try tomorrow. It looks like the picture above, just not as bad. When should I expect to see the clean body? It has been 11 days.

 

[Phlynamjax]

I also wanted to point out that every fish had white spot prior to the treatment. Butterfly and goldflake angel had worst symptom. Now I only see white spot on regales and butterfly. Everyone else is cleared including goldflake.

 

[Phlynamjax]

Sorry, I lost my phone and cannot get the picture at the moment. It has been 18 days and some of the white spots still won't go away. Should I look into different treatment or continue for 30 days? I feel really lost.

 

[Big G]

Remember the white spots of Ich or Velvet are not the parasite. They are the mucus build up at the point of the parasite's attachment to the fish. Copper doesn't kill parasites that are already attached to the fish. It only kills the parasites that are "free swimmers" stage. So it can take awhile for all the parasites to drop off depending on when they "attached" to the fish. In the meanwhile, the fish has to weather the attacks of the parasites. I've seen some "spots" still on my fish at this same point of treatment. Keep going with the treatment for the full 30 days as long as the fish are doing ok.

 

[Phlynamjax]

Thanks for quick response Big G. All my fishes are doing fantastic. I am thinking about going 35~40 days on copper treatment to make sure as I will not be adding any more fish to my tank.

 

[Phlynamjax]

Updates:
3 1/2 week since Cupramine is at 0.5mg/L using salifert test kit. I am still testing CU everyday. Most of my fishes are doing well However, I still see good amount of white spots on Semilarvatus butterly. One of my regal is not doing so well. He is covered in white spots with a cloud eye (just one side and little puffy). I am not sure why condition on my regal is getting worse rather than improving. Any suggestions? He still eats, just not as much as he used to. So I am really concerned.

 

[Big G]

Can you post a picture of the butterfly and the regal?

 

[Phlynamjax]

My regal just died. I cannot get clear picture of them as spots are only really visible in certain light conditions like natural light. I had them in copper for 30 days and I still see good amount of white spots similar to the first picture I posted. Should I continue with the treatment or should I look other options? I feel really lost and I am not sure what to do anymore. My other fishes are still hanging there.

thanks,

 

[Phlynamjax]

I do not think I can get CP from Vet's prescription. Should I try non-lab grade CP? I am not sure what else to try at this point...

 

[Humblefish]

My regal just died. I cannot get clear picture of them as spots are only really visible in certain light conditions like natural light. I had them in copper for 30 days and I still see good amount of white spots similar to the first picture I posted. Should I continue with the treatment or should I look other options? I feel really lost and I am not sure what to do anymore. My other fishes are still hanging there.

Sorry for your loss

Have the white spots been continuous on the fish, or have they come & gone? Have you tested your copper level regularly, to ensure it is remaining at a therapeutic level??