How safe is copper?

Phlynamjax · Apr 2, 2018

Humblefish said:
Sorry for your loss

Have the white spots been continuous on the fish, or have they come & gone? Have you tested your copper level regularly, to ensure it is remaining at a therapeutic level??

I have some fish not showing white spot (wrasses, flame angel). However, white spots been continuous on large angels and the butterfly. I tested my copper level everyday using Salifert CU kit to make sure that the level is at 0.5mg/L. I also tested copper on clean 1 gallon of saltwater to make sure I am reading correctly. What is your recommendation moving forward? I am really not sure what to do anymore.

thanks!

Big G · Apr 3, 2018

Can we get a fresh closeup photo of the infected fish?

Big G · Apr 3, 2018

Obviously you can see your fish better than we can. Take a look at this link of Meredith's fish disease pictorial and see if you see a similarity in your fish. There are several "white spot" diseases/infections.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fish-disease-index-pictorial-guide.285708/#post-3473098

Phlynamjax · Apr 3, 2018

This is the picture of my regal a day before he died.

HotRocks · Apr 3, 2018

It sure appears to be velvet in the first picture. What you think @Big G? It very hard to see in first pic but spots look to small to be ich to me.

Phlynamjax · Apr 3, 2018

I thought copper works on velvet as well. I had copper in my tank for 5 weeks and I still see white spots. I had first and only loss after 4 weeks. I just want to put my tank back in healthy state, whatever it takes. I just don't know what to do at this point.

HotRocks · Apr 3, 2018

Phlynamjax said:
I thought copper works on velvet as well. I had copper in my tank for 5 weeks and I still see white spots. I had first and only loss after 4 weeks. I just want to put my tank back in healthy state, whatever it takes. I just don't know what to do at this point.

Generally copper does take care of velvet. I am not 100% sure that is what you are dealing with, hard to tell from pics. But if it is, there is such a thing as a copper resistant strain of velvet. @4FordFamily

HotRocks · Apr 3, 2018

Phlynamjax said:
I thought copper works on velvet as well. I had copper in my tank for 5 weeks and I still see white spots. I had first and only loss after 4 weeks. I just want to put my tank back in healthy state, whatever it takes. I just don't know what to do at this point.

How many gallons is your QT and how much cupramine did you dose?

Big G · Apr 3, 2018

I've read posts about copper resistant velvet. Never seen it myself up close and personal. The suggestion is to use CP. Here's an advisory by Humblefish on using CP: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/chloroquine-phosphate.192309/#post-2204093
Can you get a vet to write you RX for CP?
DO NOT USE CP on Anthias, Wrasses or Hippo Tangs

4FordFamily · Apr 3, 2018

I’ve never experienced copper-resistant velvet either, for what it’s worth.

4FordFamily · Apr 3, 2018

Phlynamjax said:
This is the picture of my regal a day before he died.

The tail could be damaged by flukes, unless he’s getting picked on. Is he breathing fast? Twitching?

Any spots or swimming in to powerheads by other tankmates?

Phlynamjax · Apr 4, 2018

HotRocks said:
How many gallons is your QT and how much cupramine did you dose?

They are in display tank. I added about 16ml of cupramine. I checked everyday using Salifert CU KIT to make sure the level is maintained at 0.5mg/L. I also made 5 gallons of fresh saltwater and added 20 drops of cupramine for cross reference on the test KIT.

Phlynamjax · Apr 4, 2018

4FordFamily said:
The tail could be damaged by flukes, unless he’s getting picked on. Is he breathing fast? Twitching?

Any spots or swimming in to powerheads by other tankmates?

This was a day before he died. He was weakened and was getting bully by my other regal. That is why I had to put him in the acclimation box. I do see some twitching and scratching on my other fish. I dosed PraziPro 2 times in last 14 days to eliminate possibility of fluke. I still see some spots on my other fish especially Semilarvatus butterfly. Should I try different test kit?

HotRocks · Apr 4, 2018

Oh I see, how many gallons is display? Do you have live rock and sand in your DT?

4FordFamily · Apr 4, 2018

Phlynamjax said:
This was a day before he died. He was weakened and was getting bully by my other regal. That is why I had to put him in the acclimation box. I do see some twitching and scratching on my other fish. I dosed PraziPro 2 times in last 14 days to eliminate possibility of fluke. I still see some spots on my other fish especially Semilarvatus butterfly. Should I try different test kit?

Twitching can be a feeding response in butterflies. If you’re seeing spots we need some pics.

Phlynamjax · Apr 4, 2018

4FordFamily said:
Twitching can be a feeding response in butterflies. If you’re seeing spots we need some pics.

He does have white spots. It look just like the first picture I posted here. It is not very visible under aquarium light. But I can clearly see it early in the morning with natural sun light. I tried to take pictures multiple times, but spots aren't very visible in pictures (above regal as example). Please see the first picture I posted. I can make another attempt this weekend. I originally thought it was velvet too, but I loss one fish over 6 weeks. Although my fishes are still showing symptoms, they don't seem like they are going to die tomorrow (still eating well and active). However, I see them twitching and scratching time to time.

Phlynamjax · Apr 4, 2018

HotRocks said:
Oh I see, how many gallons is display? Do you have live rock and sand in your DT?

80 gallon display. 30lbs of sands, 7lbs of rocks and 15 liters of Seachem matrix.

HotRocks · Apr 4, 2018

Phlynamjax said:
80 gallon display. 30lbs of sands, 7lbs of rocks and 15 liters of Seachem matrix.

Do you have a sump? If so how many gallons?

Ok, So here is a possibility. I have recently been experimenting with copper. I know you frequently tested, but visual methods are just unfortunately not 100% accurate. My assumption is that you may have experienced enough absorption with live rock and sand that you could not eradicate the velvet infestation due to your Cu level dropping below .5ppm . I will agree that the 16ml that you dosed is enough to put you just over the therapeutic level without any absorption (if you do not have a sump). I do not know if matrix absorbs copper or not, @Humblefish, or @Big G will have to elaborate on that topic. If it does absorb copper then, id say you may be able to solve this by increasing your copper level. Just thinking out loud here.

4FordFamily · Apr 4, 2018

HotRocks said:
Do you have a sump? If so how many gallons?

Ok, So here is a possibility. I have recently been experimenting with copper. I know you frequently tested, but visual methods are just unfortunately not 100% accurate. My assumption is that you may have experienced enough absorption with live rock and sand that you could not eradicate the velvet infestation due to your Cu level dropping below .5ppm . I will agree that the 16ml that you dosed is enough to put you just over the therapeutic level without any absorption (if you do not have a sump). I do not know if matrix absorbs copper or not, @Humblefish, or @Big G will have to elaborate on that topic. If it does absorb copper then, id say you may be able to solve this by increasing your copper level. Just thinking out loud here.

Yes. With rock and sand present I’ve literally had to TRIPPLE dose to reach and remain therapeutic over a week’s time.

4FordFamily · Apr 4, 2018

That first photo is definitely velvet, IMO. For scale, how large is that butterfly?

If subtherapeutic copper is at play, it could keep velvet from taking over, but it remain reproducing at lower levels keeping it from being completely therapeutic.

Rock and sand, and who knows what else will cause swings in copper levels, especially initially.