That's very true in what @Humblefish said. However, to me, it's cheaper and easier to replace rocks, sand then fish. Going from fish only to reef will also often require aquascape change and perhaps even sand and rock change due to all the phosphate that are embedded in them over the years of being in a fish only system. Therefore it's still a viable option to me.
Hypo in a 240g FOWLR
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TheRealDmorty217
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I would take the starfish out and get some CP. Hypo is far and away the most difficult to do correctly and effectively. It also isn't 100%. Chaeto and mangroves will do just fine with hypo. Here is how I look at it, its a lot of work to get your tank to 1.008 and just as difficult to keep it there for 30 days. Also bringing the salinity back up over several days when hypo is complete is something else to consider. If at any moment the salinity rises above .008 then you start the clock over at day 1. If you go the CP route you measure and forget for 21 days essentially. There are many more reports of failure than success when it comes to hypo. CP doesn't absorb into rock or sand either
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NeuroticAquatics
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Those were my two worries. I may (probably will, knowing me) want to convert from FOWLR to reef. I have always read that getting copper out is tough, at best. I had also read about the rock absorbing it while treating and making it difficult to keep levels correct.
I think, for better or worse, hypo is the way I've gotta go. I'll cross my fingers that I don't end up with an empty tank in the end. It's a lot of fish (and money) in there. I'm upset that this happened when I was finally happy with the number of fish and overall look. I had planned to add another 2-3 fish and stop.
How slowly should I drop? I've always thought that dropping salinity fast is no issue. Bringing it back up is where you go slow.
I think, for better or worse, hypo is the way I've gotta go. I'll cross my fingers that I don't end up with an empty tank in the end. It's a lot of fish (and money) in there. I'm upset that this happened when I was finally happy with the number of fish and overall look. I had planned to add another 2-3 fish and stop.
How slowly should I drop? I've always thought that dropping salinity fast is no issue. Bringing it back up is where you go slow.
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NeuroticAquatics
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I was typing as others responded, so...
The CP route was not something I had thought about. I have a friend that is a Vet, so she may be able to prescribe. Is it as simple as dose and wait? Potential downsides?
The CP route was not something I had thought about. I have a friend that is a Vet, so she may be able to prescribe. Is it as simple as dose and wait? Potential downsides?
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NeuroticAquatics
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I've got my friend on the case for CP. my question, having never used this, is...where would the prescription be filled and does anyone know how much this stuff costs? I'm guessing my insurance won't cover it.
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NeuroticAquatics
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15mg per liter sound correct?
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NeuroticAquatics
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Ok...got some answers...it costs a lot through a pharmacy for human grade but can be found on eBay for much less. The eBay is not for human consumption. I think I will try unless someone can talk me out of it...
@NeuroticAquatics The problem with CP found on ebay (or any online source) is that it's likely sourced from China, which is how they are getting around the Rx requirement. CP sourced from China has been very hit or miss, probably due to QC issues. CP sourced from a US, Canadian or European pharmacy is much more likely to be 99% pure Chloroquine.
Now for problems using CP in a DT: IME; CP used in a QT environment (bare bottom/no rock) has proved to be highly successful. I've used this chemical for around 6-7 years now with great success treating ich, velvet, brook, uronema. However, based upon the anecdotal evidence of others, CP often fails to eradicate when used in a system with rock & substrate. I am unsure whether this is due to absorption or some other issue.
Now for problems using CP in a DT: IME; CP used in a QT environment (bare bottom/no rock) has proved to be highly successful. I've used this chemical for around 6-7 years now with great success treating ich, velvet, brook, uronema. However, based upon the anecdotal evidence of others, CP often fails to eradicate when used in a system with rock & substrate. I am unsure whether this is due to absorption or some other issue.
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NeuroticAquatics
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So, if you were in my position and bare bottom QT is not really an option and copper is pretty much not either, do I go hypo or CP?
I get that hypo has to stay low. I hear the "if it goes up even a little, you are back to day one", but if it is killing large quantities and this keeping it off the fish, that seems to have some benefit. It also seems to keep the percentages relatively high that you are getting all of it.
CP, I have had zero experience with. I think I will use it for QT moving forward, but in this case it seems relatively easy to use and it's a matter of hit or miss eradication. Would dosing a second time possibly help?
I also might have access to a Vecton 600 25W UV unit. Assuming new quality bulb and proper flow, would that plus hypo work better? I understand it won't with CP.
I get that hypo has to stay low. I hear the "if it goes up even a little, you are back to day one", but if it is killing large quantities and this keeping it off the fish, that seems to have some benefit. It also seems to keep the percentages relatively high that you are getting all of it.
CP, I have had zero experience with. I think I will use it for QT moving forward, but in this case it seems relatively easy to use and it's a matter of hit or miss eradication. Would dosing a second time possibly help?
I also might have access to a Vecton 600 25W UV unit. Assuming new quality bulb and proper flow, would that plus hypo work better? I understand it won't with CP.
I would do hypo because IMO that has a higher likelihood of success in your particular situation. Lots of people have successfully used hypo to rid their DT of ich; not so much when it comes to CP.
Possibly, but sometimes overdosing CP does more harm than good. I typically treat using a dosage between 40-60mg/gal and most fish seem to tolerate that well. However, I've had some fish waste away and die on me at concentrations >60mg/gal. And since there is no practical test kit available to measure CP, how do you ever really know what dosage you are treating at when rock/substrate is in play?
It can't hurt, but a UV is more useful as an ich management tool. The flow is too slow for complete eradication.
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NeuroticAquatics
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Ok. I'm going back to the hypo plan. Hopefully all is well with the tank when I get home...
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NeuroticAquatics
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Well...here is where we are in this battle. It appears that this was more than just Ich. The best guess is a combo of Ich and probably Brook. The Desjardini Tang ended up taking a turn for the worse over the weekend and had slime/gunk peeling off of it as did the Magnificent Foxface. Both looked about as bad as any fish I have seen that was still alive. The Rusty angel started looking bad too. I got my 35g QT set up, did a freshwater bath for those three with Tetra Ich Guard (Victoria Green and Arciflavine) as that was the best my LFS had yesterday and then into the QT dosed with CP they went. The Foxface died last night. The Rusty was dead this morning, but the Desjardini was amazingly still alive. It is laying on its side, but breathing almost normal and all the slime that was peeling of yesterday seems gone.
Back in the DT...my Purple and Blonde Tangs, Green Bird Wrasse and Longnose Hawk all look pretty good. The Purple has a little patch on its side, but beyond that, seems ok. The wrasse seems to have a coat that almost looks like MV, but acts fine. All are eating and acting normal. I plan to catch them this evening. I had too many family things going on over this last weekend to make an attempt.
My huge surprise of the morning was that I've been able to see my Harlequin Tusk way in the back, under a huge pile of rock. I figured it was dead, as it had not moved all weekend. I went to net it out this morning and it moved! It actually startled me. I did not have time before work to move all the rock and do a bath, but I was able to catch it and get it into my QT.
Whatever this is (Humblefish thinks Brook based on pics and videos I sent), it does not seem to be a quick killer as MV and/or Brook usually are.
I will try to update as things happen (in case anyone cares). I'm not counting the days for the CP until the four fish are in for the DT later today.
Back in the DT...my Purple and Blonde Tangs, Green Bird Wrasse and Longnose Hawk all look pretty good. The Purple has a little patch on its side, but beyond that, seems ok. The wrasse seems to have a coat that almost looks like MV, but acts fine. All are eating and acting normal. I plan to catch them this evening. I had too many family things going on over this last weekend to make an attempt.
My huge surprise of the morning was that I've been able to see my Harlequin Tusk way in the back, under a huge pile of rock. I figured it was dead, as it had not moved all weekend. I went to net it out this morning and it moved! It actually startled me. I did not have time before work to move all the rock and do a bath, but I was able to catch it and get it into my QT.
Whatever this is (Humblefish thinks Brook based on pics and videos I sent), it does not seem to be a quick killer as MV and/or Brook usually are.
I will try to update as things happen (in case anyone cares). I'm not counting the days for the CP until the four fish are in for the DT later today.
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NeuroticAquatics
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It is great that we have people like you on here that put so much time into helping out. Thank you so much!I will be following and helping as I can. Sorry you are having to deal with this nightmare.
I still feel bad that I didn't think of brook or velvet possibly being in play, and then you go do hypo on your DT.
The good news is the CP you obtained should treat ich, velvet, brook, uronema if it is legit.
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NeuroticAquatics
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The DT is going to be fallow for a while now, so all that is lost is salt. I'm going to take the time to rescape the rock and I might even redo my sump/fuge setup too. I've currently got two smallish acrylic tanks (used to be drip filters) and a 45g acrylic all connected to each other. I'd like to try and get rid of the two and get a single tank to connect to the 45g. Less wasted space that way, just not sure if it's worth the hassle.
I hope the CP is okay. I guess time will tell...
I hope the CP is okay. I guess time will tell...
melypr1985
totally addicted
I'm following along too! Best of luck... the CP should be just what ya need. 
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NeuroticAquatics
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Question...I've heard that you do not want direct light exposure when running CP. my QT is basically set up like a sump underneath my son's 60g. I have a little cheapo white LED light that came from a little plastic 5g years ago. Is that okay to use?
melypr1985
totally addicted
I forget who it is, but he uses CP quite often and ran some tests (or is still running them) on how light effects the CP in a QT. Humble probably remembers his name and can tag him.
@Reef Fever reported no degradation of CP even under MH lamps. So, it may just be the powder itself you need to protect from light.
