I don't actually know what I'm doing....

[mattgsa]

You'll hear others tell you, every day you spend studying will save you a thousand dollars. I personally think that is the best advice in the hobby. Don't give up, this a great hobby, and things will turn around for you. We all have had these types of setbacks. Its just part of the deal. I love the look of your tank.

 

[AllieBdot]

@brandon429
Your tank has visual signs of being cycled you used real live rock, I’d just use prime for a day or two, and youll be good to go. If you really need peace of mind Id use some biospira. What test kit?

edit: just saw API kit. Pretty sure they are false positives and something else is wrong. The hiding makes me think the copperband is bullying or one of the other damsels is. What order was the copperband added? Like first, last, what?

 

[AllieBdot]

We did 2 yellow tail damsels, 2 blue damsels, one striped, one domino, and 2 chromis first. Copper band and goby came next then fire fish and then 4 clown. We have one mean little blue damsel that thinks the entire center of the tank is his but there is still plenty of space for everyone else so he just chases everyone out. Copper band is a jolly guy- super curious and more interested in his own reflection in the glass than what everyone else is up to.

 

[Webslinger]

Patience is a virtue

 

[brandon429]

Quarantine and fallow is a virtue

on page one we linked fish disease forum, that much live rock used in the build will require detailed fallow preps for sure. I saw fish loss threads like this one in there when I scanned this morning. Cycling cannot be a factor here at all.

 

[dopey]

I'm sorry but I feel Brandon's conclusions and advice is dangerous here, the tone also comes across arrogant and as if there is a competition to buck the norms or rush to add fish or what have you. This is dangerous, and for someone just starting in the hobby they likely don't know enough to understand your arguments and decide for themselves. - No offense Brandon.

If I understood OP right he added live rock, protein skimmer and three days later began adding fish. Given the deaths and remaining livestock it seems this was done in an aggressive fashion.

Adding too much livestock in a short period of time can absolutely overload the biological filter and increase ammonia. It can also lead to aggression. You can also introduce sickness due to lack of quarantine.

Test kits can report inaccurate, so of course source another test kit and confirm results. In a functioning reef, you do not see ammonia or nitrite. I personally run a seneye and have yet to see it register ammonia in my established system.

In an emergency, such as this, it is not the time to flaunt alternative methods or make declarative statements without information.

To OP:
Confirm test kits on ammonia/nitrite
Observe fish behaviour and share. Will indiciate either aggression or difficulty in breathing or sickness.


If it were me; I'd begin making water and doing as large water changes as I can as frequent as I can until I know a root cause. Short of human error; i've never seen an increase in water changes cause *more* issues.

Good luck.

 

[brandon429]

It’s not dangerous to eliminate something that can’t be a cause, and insert the one thing that can, I’m having to re read your assessment twice to see what the actual advised action is. No fish added can increase ammonia harm in that much live rock and sand, your own seneye will show no movement outside of thousandths ppm, predicted. Logs if so

 

[brandon429]

Yes upon rereading thats a restatement closing in on verbatim.


Glad you use seneye, it would be really helpful to see your history logs of it in your tank especially if you cycled with it.


did your ammonia ever spike to the tenths ppm? What about into the hundredths, that’s helpful details to know for sure. Very relevant data for this thread too, ammonia cannot behave differently tank to tank. @Malifry97


one day titration kits won’t rule reefing. As they do, you can expect fun post ammonia tracing threads. When we are all on digital measures, reef procedures will change drastically. We will have claims logged, to look back on. cycle umpiring is matter-of- fact, the line is clear and there isn’t middle ground. it’s wasting time to aim for ammonia issues here.

Regarding my six day cycle thread: reef conventions all start on fridays, not thirty days after. The science they use to start reef convention tanks on time, and skip cycle them, he did in that thread and it looked like a fun thing to point out/do click the link it’s not done being proofed yet. I might have to pay up.

 

[tamanning]

Your tank should completely cycle before you add any fish. Whomever told you live rock was all you need was wrong . it is a start and a good way to start up your bio. you need to wait until the ammonia is at zero and then the nitrite is at zero before you add critters to your tank. You have however found a treasure trove of information on this site. these guys and gals will steer you correctly. Good luck.

 

[Webslinger]

Did the copperband die yet?

 

[Dom]

@AllieBdot

In my view, it seems that there is more than one issue, the biggest being a lack of quality guidance with your first tank.

1. API Test Kits: In general, the consensus is that API test kits leave something to be desired where accuracy is concerned. Personally, I use them as a way to do a quick test to monitor water conditions. And I use Red Sea test kits to confirm the API results when API is reporting something of concern. API will report the presence of ammonia, even when none exists.

2. Quarantine: In my experience, there are no circumstances under which a new fish should go directly into a display tank. Personally, I monitor a new fish purchase in quarantine for 90 days. And if they show signs of disease, I reset the 90 day clock once treatment is completed.

3. Go slow: There is an expression that those of us who have been in the hobby are familiar with; "Nothing good happens fast in this hobby". True. You MUST be patient. There are many things in life which we can own impulsively, but a reef tank isn't one of them. Unlike a new 60" TV, you don't pull it from the box, plug it in and enjoy.

Think of your reef tank as a garden; something that needs to be nurtured into the rich colors and aromatic blends we enjoy. It doesn't happen overnight.

4. Last: Based on your picture only, I would say that your tank is capable of supporting fish. But if you plan on adding corals at some point, you may want to consult here before doing so.

Please post a detailed list of your tank equipment so that proper guidance can be provided moving forward.

Good luck!
Dom

 

[Webslinger]

Put more space between rocks in your rock pile. more hiding spaces and better flow as well as aesthetics.

 

[DeniseAndy]

Welcome to the club. We all have many ways of doing things as you will see.
I think you can see that we all are very passionate about our animals and our reefs. That is a good thing. It sounds like you want to get it right too.
First off, what size tank do you have? It looks like pretty nice size.
Edit:
Now, when you said you started with live rock, was it shipped? From another running reef? From a lfs?
How long have you had each of the fish and I assume none went through QT? Are the clowns acting strange?
Do you have inverts besides the couple crabs and snails? Are they still alive?
These first questions will help me to get some answers for you.

 

[Mark Bradley]

Firstly let me state I claim to be no reef guru - I’m a newbie but thought I would share some of the things that have got me, 7 months in, with a stable tank and to date no losses of fish or coral (again I appreciate ‘tomorrow’ could be a different story).

1. My LFS has a Red Sea Reefer 170 as a display tank. It’s absolutely stunning - so I decided to speak to them about what they had, equipment wise, and why they had those things. I then decided to replicate exactly the set up as, after all, it was clearly working. Of course I appreciate that a new tank, reactor, skimmer, LEDs and the latest lighting isn’t cheap but I funded a fair chunk by selling my Malawi tank (40 fish, LEDs, two external filters, other equipment and the tank itself were all sold separately to maximise the return). eBay was a valued money source as I raided by house for anything I could sell which, in truth, I was simply hoarding for no reason. I also bought the various bits over a period of a few months whilst I was researching so it spread the cost.
2. I looked at a wealth of videos, on YouTube, to decide what fish and corals I should look to get as well as how to mature the tank and everything else required to maintain it. I spent two months on the research part.
3. Having bought all the equipment I then got the shop to set the tank up for me. This was useful from the perspective of making sure I started out right (took them 3 hours so I think it would have taken me loads more with potential for floods etc). However, the downside (which soon became evident) was I didn’t really understand how everything worked and interacted with each other. As an example I didn’t appreciate that when the reactor was not tumbling as much it was because of the sponge filter needing cleaning) - so I would still have them set it up, if I started again, but I’d pay greater attention whilst they were doing it.
4. I matured the tank as per the instructions - I took 5 weeks for this phase.
5. I then gradually added the clean up crew and fish. These were added over a period of 10 weeks to ensure the system adequately coped.
6. I had the algae problem but kept it down as best I could manually - the key seemed to be when I got hair algae - I ‘hired’ a Sea Hare and it did a great job (backed up by my clean up crew) in resolving the issue.
7. Three months in and I added my first corals - my water perimeters (including calcium, alkalinity etc) were perfect at this time - I wanted to get corals I really wanted so was prepared for the looking after whatever their requirements.
8. I’m now into 7 months - I’ve got all the fish, and corals, I want for the time being as I want to let them grow on and to date I’ve had no losses.
9. My husbandry involves weekly water changes of 15%. Daily cleaning of skimmer cup and topping up of the auto top up unit. I’m using the Red Sea Recipes and I feed the fish a very varied diet. Filter sock is changed every three days. My water (both salt and plain RO) is bought from my LFS already made up so I just heat it prior to the water change.

In summary - I think I’m in a good place. The key has been good research, right equipment (best you can afford), compatible livestock and loads of patience. I appreciate things might change, without warning, but so far so good.

 

[Webslinger]

Firstly let me state I claim to be no reef guru - I’m a newbie but thought I would share some of the things that have got me, 7 months in, with a stable tank and to date no losses of fish or coral (again I appreciate ‘tomorrow’ could be a different story).

1. My LFS has a Red Sea Reefer 170 as a display tank. It’s absolutely stunning - so I decided to speak to them about what they had, equipment wise, and why they had those things. I then decided to replicate exactly the set up as, after all, it was clearly working. Of course I appreciate that a new tank, reactor, skimmer, LEDs and the latest lighting isn’t cheap but I funded a fair chunk by selling my Malawi tank (40 fish, LEDs, two external filters, other equipment and the tank itself were all sold separately to maximise the return). eBay was a valued money source as I raided by house for anything I could sell which, in truth, I was simply hoarding for no reason. I also bought the various bits over a period of a few months whilst I was researching so it spread the cost.
2. I looked at a wealth of videos, on YouTube, to decide what fish and corals I should look to get as well as how to mature the tank and everything else required to maintain it. I spent two months on the research part.
3. Having bought all the equipment I then got the shop to set the tank up for me. This was useful from the perspective of making sure I started out right (took them 3 hours so I think it would have taken me loads more with potential for floods etc). However, the downside (which soon became evident) was I didn’t really understand how everything worked and interacted with each other. As an example I didn’t appreciate that when the reactor was not tumbling as much it was because of the sponge filter needing cleaning) - so I would still have them set it up, if I started again, but I’d pay greater attention whilst they were doing it.
4. I matured the tank as per the instructions - I took 5 weeks for this phase.
5. I then gradually added the clean up crew and fish. These were added over a period of 10 weeks to ensure the system adequately coped.
6. I had the algae problem but kept it down as best I could manually - the key seemed to be when I got hair algae - I ‘hired’ a Sea Hare and it did a great job (backed up by my clean up crew) in resolving the issue.
7. Three months in and I added my first corals - my water perimeters (including calcium, alkalinity etc) were perfect at this time - I wanted to get corals I really wanted so was prepared for the looking after whatever their requirements.
8. I’m now into 7 months - I’ve got all the fish, and corals, I want for the time being as I want to let them grow on and to date I’ve had no losses.
9. My husbandry involves weekly water changes of 15%. Daily cleaning of skimmer cup and topping up of the auto top up unit. I’m using the Red Sea Recipes and I feed the fish a very varied diet. Filter sock is changed every three days. My water (both salt and plain RO) is bought from my LFS already made up so I just heat it prior to the water change.

In summary - I think I’m in a good place. The key has been good research, right equipment (best you can afford), compatible livestock and loads of patience. I appreciate things might change, without warning, but so far so good.

Slow and steady ...baby!

 

[Vinny84]

Check out the videos on Bulkreefsupply.com
Great stuff can walk through some of the basic basics! That’s what I did! Good luck!

Ye BRS is a great place to learn I’m new to hobby and BRS YouTube channel Has bin a god send

 

[Cell]

I'm sorry but I feel Brandon's conclusions and advice is dangerous here, the tone also comes across arrogant and as if there is a competition to buck the norms or rush to add fish or what have you. This is dangerous, and for someone just starting in the hobby they likely don't know enough to understand your arguments and decide for themselves. - No offense Brandon.

If I understood OP right he added live rock, protein skimmer and three days later began adding fish. Given the deaths and remaining livestock it seems this was done in an aggressive fashion.

Adding too much livestock in a short period of time can absolutely overload the biological filter and increase ammonia. It can also lead to aggression. You can also introduce sickness due to lack of quarantine.

Test kits can report inaccurate, so of course source another test kit and confirm results. In a functioning reef, you do not see ammonia or nitrite. I personally run a seneye and have yet to see it register ammonia in my established system.

In an emergency, such as this, it is not the time to flaunt alternative methods or make declarative statements without information.

Brandon's methods may not be conventional, but that is the point, just because this is how it's always been done does not mean it's the correct or optimal or only way. If you think he is making these statements without information, you are mistaken. He has proven a lot of his theories in the real world, tank by tank, with users across multiple reefing forums and is clearly willing to put his money where his mouth is.

 

[dopey]

Yes upon rereading thats a restatement closing in on verbatim.


Glad you use seneye, it would be really helpful to see your history logs of it in your tank especially if you cycled with it.


did your ammonia ever spike to the tenths ppm? What about into the hundredths, that’s helpful details to know for sure. Very relevant data for this thread too, ammonia cannot behave differently tank to tank. @Malifry97


one day titration kits won’t rule reefing. As they do, you can expect fun post ammonia tracing threads. When we are all on digital measures, reef procedures will change drastically. We will have claims logged, to look back on. cycle umpiring is matter-of- fact, the line is clear and there isn’t middle ground. it’s wasting time to aim for ammonia issues here.

Regarding my six day cycle thread: reef conventions all start on fridays, not thirty days after. The science they use to start reef convention tanks on time, and skip cycle them, he did in that thread and it looked like a fun thing to point out/do click the link it’s not done being proofed yet. I might have to pay up.

Would you agree there is a difference between initial cycle vs what your biological filter can support? Aggression/QT issues aside; Isn't rapidly adding too many new fish to a system not likely to overtax the biological filtration?

I haven''t seen the 6 day cycle thread, do you have a link? tried to find it through your profile but you post allot, so was hard to find I don't pretend to be an expert, but my reaction to how reef conventions do things that quick is a combination of two things
1.) Experienced reefers who will recognize an issue and/or do proper testing and/or proper mitigation.
2.) They are temporary setups.

I reacted to this thread due to the sense of absolutism presented. Reading this thread I don't see how one can rule out an overloading of the biological filtration as the cause, or disease, or aggression.

While I do applaud finding alternatives to mainstream wisdom, I think it's worth recognizing when there are things beginners can do which will improve their path to success. Considering the amount of patience required for this hobby, in general, i'm not sure advocating shorter cycles or lack of importance of nitrite/ammonia is the best message for a beginner. It indulges the impatient side of us all

 

[brandon429]

that is a fine discussion for this thread it really is.


what we are inherently about to measure/evaluate is if surfaces ramp up bacteria to match a bioload, is that right

also measured: fast vs slow cycles, meaning does a fast cycle cover rocks with less bacteria than a 30 day one?

if you cycle group of rocks A with 4 fish, then upon cycle completion, you can't add 4 more all at once, they have to be staggered out so the rock can catch up to prevent free ammonia

is that the general scope you are asking about?

@dopey

before I post a thread where we remove an entire sandbed all at once using minstream ammonia measures, and instantly require the live rock to handle essentially double fish presentation, pls let me know how you predict your seneye would measure if we removed your whole sandbed, right now. Would it spike above thousandths ppm?


remember this rule only seneye and mindstream users can know: ammonia works the same across all reefs when rocks and sand is present. one tank doesnt behave differently than another regarding conversion rates of ammonia, or how many initial fish are used.

tricky rule to envision but we are about to see proofing in action via mindstream soon
*this rabbit hole is for cycle sleuths, not trying to delay the thread, the questions here are directly related to the OP's first post, those are misreads.

 

[dopey]

that is a fine discussion for this thread it really is.


what we are inherently about to measure/evaluate is if surfaces ramp up bacteria to match a bioload, is that right

also measured: fast vs slow cycles, meaning does a fast cycle cover rocks with less bacteria than a 30 day one?

if you cycle group of rocks A with 4 fish, then upon cycle completion, you can't add 4 more all at once, they have to be staggered out so the rock can catch up to prevent free ammonia

is that the general scope you are asking about?

Yes. I'd add that it also depends on water volume of the tank whether you'd notice any negative effects or not. Adding 4 more fish to a 'cycled' that's 100G vs 10G would, in my mind, have different results.

I may of missed it but he didn't cover transit time, etc of moving the rock either. Would you agree depending how life rock is shipped/moved between tanks can also affect the biological filter?

I do think when it comes to reef conventions setting up tanks in days is a very different skillset/experience involved than a new reefer adding fish in a matter of days. One is more likely to have issues.


Will also answer the other person

Brandon's methods may not be conventional, but that is the point, just because this is how it's always been done does not mean it's the correct or optimal or only way. If you think he is making these statements without information, you are mistaken. He has proven a lot of his theories in the real world, tank by tank, with users across multiple reefing forums and is clearly willing to put his money where his mouth is.

I know. I find his post interesting as well. I reacted to these statements:
"very simple situation here, thats fish disease from lack of quarantine"
and
"regarding the cycle and the test kits your cycle is not in question,"


This is an emergency thread. The person is an admittedly new reef. Brandon has various badges beside his name. I felt it was a bit much to make declarative statements with such little information in the thread. There had only been a photo, test results indicating ammonia and nitrite and report of a single fish with a single spot which was still alive. Just felt a bit too declarative, regardless of a person's knowledge in the hobby.

I didn't mean it as a personal attack to Brandon or his efforts in the hobby, apologizes if it came across that way.