Ich is now in tank... help with UV sterilizers / mitigation methods

[blaxsun]

Having been in the same situation (velvet instead of ich), I ran an oversized UV and the heavy dose of Polyp Labs Medic. I'm not suggesting this as a course of action over anything that's been recommended - merely just one more option.

 

[Lasse]

plus changing bulbs, etc - can be a hassle

How many quartz glass have you cracked ? A tip with all double ended tubes. Be careful when you remove the UV-C tube - should not fall down on the water protecting quartz glass tube. If you should remove the quartz glass tube - put in a stick that goes through the fittings at each side . Fix it in the upper side of the quartz glass tube ans slowly slide out the tube through one of the openings. In this way - it cant fell down in the container and crack. On the professional large ones I have run - I use the the broomstick on a garbage brush

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

@blaxsun your location lead me to this place Its that really your location? If so - i will visit you sooner or later

Sincerely Lasse

 

[blaxsun]

@blaxsun your location lead me to this place Its that really your location? If so - i will visit you sooner or later

Sincerely Lasse

Haha, no - I'm in Canada.

 

[MnFish1]

Thanks @Lasse. I knew you would have recommendations. I'm still not 'sold' on UV - but the tips you gave are excellent.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Since the reactive dose of H2O2 is based on the organic loading in the tank, and since that changes over time (and while you are dosing) I would urge you not to dose it unless you are monitoring it with low dose test strips:

Here is an excerpt from my book on UZ ster-lizers as a primary control against Cryptocaryon:

UV sterilizers

Ultraviolet (UV) sterilizers are also sold as a “cure” for Cryptocaryon. The problem is that most hobbyist-sized UV sterilizers do not have the power to make an effective kill on the relatively large Cryptocaryon parasite. Additionally, UV sterilizers are effective only on the tomite/theront stage, as this is the only point where the parasite is even present in the water column.

The fallacy here is that tomites/theronts must leave the fish. Actually, some of them get caught up in the fish’s mucus and stay attached until they become infective trophonts again. This means that UV sterilization will not eliminate active Cryptocaryon infections from a single aquarium. Where it does have benefit is in eliminating tomites as they pass through a filtration system from one discrete tank to another (like in a public aquarium or fisheries lab). Decades ago, diatom filters were touted as cures for ich and velvet. The same issue applies with them; there are adherent forms of these protozoans that can continue to infect the fish without ever having to leave the fish’s body. Even if they do, the “dwell time” factor means that some theronts will still be present in the water column to infect the fish.

A recent study (Ge-Ling, 2022) indicates that the UV dose required to kill Cryptocaryon theronts/tomites is 185,000 uw/S/cm2. They do go on however, to conclude: “ …both ozone and UV are ineffective in controlling infection within an individual aquarium because of the adhesive nature of C. irritans tomonts (Ma et al., 2017). Therefore, the focus on UV and ozone treatment should prevent live theronts flow into aquaculture ponds. Second, the tomonts are strongly resistant to UV or ozone than theronts, implying that recommended production doses cannot wholly kill tomonts….”
UV sterilizers

Jay

 

[MnFish1]

Since the reactive dose of H2O2 is based on the organic loading in the tank, and since that changes over time (and while you are dosing) I would urge you not to dose it unless you are monitoring it with low dose test strips:

Here is an excerpt from my book on UZ ster-lizers as a primary control against Cryptocaryon:

UV sterilizers

Ultraviolet (UV) sterilizers are also sold as a “cure” for Cryptocaryon. The problem is that most hobbyist-sized UV sterilizers do not have the power to make an effective kill on the relatively large Cryptocaryon parasite. Additionally, UV sterilizers are effective only on the tomite/theront stage, as this is the only point where the parasite is even present in the water column.

The fallacy here is that tomites/theronts must leave the fish. Actually, some of them get caught up in the fish’s mucus and stay attached until they become infective trophonts again. This means that UV sterilization will not eliminate active Cryptocaryon infections from a single aquarium. Where it does have benefit is in eliminating tomites as they pass through a filtration system from one discrete tank to another (like in a public aquarium or fisheries lab). Decades ago, diatom filters were touted as cures for ich and velvet. The same issue applies with them; there are adherent forms of these protozoans that can continue to infect the fish without ever having to leave the fish’s body. Even if they do, the “dwell time” factor means that some theronts will still be present in the water column to infect the fish.

A recent study (Ge-Ling, 2022) indicates that the UV dose required to kill Cryptocaryon theronts/tomites is 185,000 uw/S/cm2. They do go on however, to conclude: “ …both ozone and UV are ineffective in controlling infection within an individual aquarium because of the adhesive nature of C. irritans tomonts (Ma et al., 2017). Therefore, the focus on UV and ozone treatment should prevent live theronts flow into aquaculture ponds. Second, the tomonts are strongly resistant to UV or ozone than theronts, implying that recommended production doses cannot wholly kill tomonts….”
UV sterilizers

Jay

I dont want to derail the thread - but - with these adherent protozoans - wouldn't that also cause TTM to fail (sometimes)?

 

[cdw79]

I'm going to try my best to answer all the questions here, but admittedly am a little overwhelmed by the variety of advice.

As far as removing coral, that would probably be the solution I'd be least inclined to take for a hypo salinity treatment. I have some very nice pieces that I've finally been able to source, and even if I got everything out (which is unlikely) I'd be losing a huge amount of money on the resale market. Personally I would try and avoid this at all costs.

But yes, I am done adding fish, at least assuming I can avoid deaths in the next weeks and months, which is part of the reason I have been partial to mitigation if it's realistic.

Currently only the new addition has ich, and it was added a little less than 24 hours ago. So as of now it isn't an outbreak, but there are several raised white spots on the fish. The odd thing is that they are only really visible under blue's, but nonetheless undoubtedly ich.

I *think* I could catch the infected fish in question, but I don't have much besides standard 5 gallon buckets to hold it as of now. I'm not quite sure where in my apartment I could put another tank but could try, though don't I then have the problem of the tank not having any cycled media to put in it?

I really only want to take on the quarantine / medical tank option if it really seems absolutely required at this point. I work long hours and am studying for graduate school at the same time, so another daily stressor is something I am trying my best to avoid (hence why I was looking into biting the bullet and going heavy on mitigation methods), but if removing and treating is truly required and mitigation will kill other fish, then I suppose I can take up that option for the good of the animals. I'm just not positive I could get all the supplies today, and I question whether I can, for one, catch all the fish to go fallow without destroying my glued aquascape, or two, house all of them in a 20 g or something for months. So if I do remove fish, it feels like just removing the new addition that is currently infected is the most realistic

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I dont want to derail the thread - but - with these adherent protozoans - wouldn't that also cause TTM to fail (sometimes)?

IMO - yes. Trouble is, it is tough to prove. I think that adherent Amyloodinium is why H2O2 was added to TTM regimen, to try and get around that issue.

Here are my thoughts on TTM:

Tank Transfer Method - TTM)

A mostly theoretical method for treating Cryptocaryon infections takes advantage of the life cycle of the organism—moving the infected fish to a new aquarium at the point where the tomonts are produced, potentially breaking the life cycle. In real-world applications, multiple tank moves are required because, as mentioned above, the ich parasites are rarely in perfect synchronicity. This process can physically damaging to fish, and ammonia levels can build up too high in the containers between transfers. In addition, the method does not control flukes, and may not control Amyloodinium (velvet). “Hybrid TTM”, using the addition of hydrogen peroxide at two points in the process has been touted as a way around this deficiency. The trouble with that is that “dips” in general are rarely 100% effective for parasites, and fluke eggs will not be controlled at all.

There are also diseases that simply do not manifest themselves within the shortened timeline of TTM. You then risk introducing those diseases into your DT due to the shortened time for the TTM over that of the more typical 40+ day quarantine methods. Some of those diseases are not treatable, but you definitely don't want them getting into your main aquarium....Myxosporidians, etc. Remember, part of the reason to run a full quarantine on new fish is to protect your existing fish from any diseases they may be carrying.

Another drawback to TTM is that it really only works for newly acquired fish. If you have an existing aquarium, and the fish develop ich, you can't remove them and use TTM because at the end of the run, you need a clean tank to house them and your DT will have been recently infected, and will still be in its fallow period. Copper and hyposalinity require longer treatment periods, so you can't run them unless you have a stable treatment tank - and therefore, the fish can be housed in that tank until your display has run fallow long enough.


Jay

 

[IKD]

I dont want to derail the thread - but - with these adherent protozoans - wouldn't that also cause TTM to fail (sometimes)?

I have the same question. And does copper really work if it doesn’t leave the body of the fish?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I have the same question. And does copper really work if it doesn’t leave the body of the fish?

The difference with copper is that it kills the theronts, whether they are on the fish or in the water. TTM only moves the fish away from theronts in the water, the ones on the gills can get carried along. Also, the length of time of the copper treatment - 30 days versus 9 days for some TTM helps clear the issue.

Jay

 

[Lasse]

but I don't have much besides standard 5 gallon buckets to hold it as of now.

It is the size I have used for treatment of Cryptocaryon infections on saltwater fish. An circulation pump or a small streamer. Keep it dark (cover). Prepare a 2 buckets with 50% new mixed salt 50 % old DT water. Circulation in both. Put the fish for 24 hour in one of the buckets - let the other circulate. Do not feed. After 24 hours move the fish to the second bucket. Clean out the first bucket very well and mix a new 50/50 batch of saltwater - let it have circulation - next day repeat the move and so on for 7 - 10 days. This way I have with success treat Cryptocaryon infections on newcomers, If your DT will be infected or not depends on how fast you remove the infected fish - IMO. Never used it for other diseases because it does not work if the pathogen not have a dormant stage in the substrate

The odd thing is that they are only really visible under blue's, but nonetheless undoubtedly ich.

This is interesting because it means that there must be some type of fluorescence involved. Never herd that Cryptocaryon trophont´s have this ability.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

A recent study (Ge-Ling, 2022) indicates that the UV dose required to kill Cryptocaryon theronts/tomites is 185,000 uw/S/cm2. They do go on however, to conclude: “ …both ozone and UV are ineffective in controlling infection within an individual aquarium because of the adhesive nature of C. irritans tomonts (Ma et al., 2017).

Can you please give the full references (the title of the works)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

HI @Lasse - I think I posted the link in another thread - here it is:

Ultraviolet light and ozone controls Cryptocaryon irritans infection in factory aquaculture

Cryptocaryon irritans is a pathogenic ectoparasitic ciliate that infects marine teleosts, causing massive mortality and economic losses in aquaculture…

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[Lasse]

Thanks - I found it but I can´t access the full text.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

Thanks - I found it but I can´t access the full text.

Sincerely Lasse

When I try to get it - I have to purchase the PDF (or be from an institution)

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

When I try to get it - I have to purchase the PDF (or be from an institution)

Yes - it is a "pay to play". While I dislike that distribution model, as an author, I can certainly relate to it! I got my copy from a staff member who has a university account. I can't repost it though.

Jay

 

[Lasse]

No one have mention cleaner shrimps - may I put in a nuclear explosion into the debate

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

No one have mention cleaner shrimps - may I put in a nuclear explosion into the debate

Sincerely Lasse

Actually - there was a recent article suggesting they play a significant role - if the fish is not overwhelmed - BTW - I thought Sweden was neutral how could you cause a nuclear explosion.

Cleaner shrimp are a sustainable option to treat parasitic disease in farmed fish - Scientific Reports

Chemical use is widespread in aquaculture to treat parasitic diseases in farmed fish. Cleaner fish biocontrols are increasingly used in fish farming as an alternative to medicines. However, cleaner fish are susceptible to some of their clients’ parasites and their supply is largely dependent on...

www.nature.com

EDIT - SORRY @Lasse - I did not realize that that was a link. Can you please do me a favor - and tell me how (on this site) - you changed the link to a 'word'. I thought you had just changed the color

 

[Lasse]

Here is a good review - however they do not mention UV-C, Ozone and H2O2 - but other rather interesting methods - one there you use sand that sucks up and replaces every day........ They do also state

After leaving the cysts, theronts move quickly to find and contact to their host, spiral actively into the epithelium within 1 min and subsequently transform into trophonts.

Sincerely Lasse