Jacked Up SPS prices

[Mattrg02]

I absolutely realize this. Sadly however the ocean is large and I have a day job. I let other people pick through it and when they find something I want, I pay them for it. When I’ve got a beautiful colony that makes me happy and doesn’t look like my other torts should I dismiss it’s aesthetics simply because there are other torts in the ocean?

You shouldn't dismiss the coral because it's common, that's not at all what I'm saying, but you should make a smarter purchase. No offense, but you are part of the problem.

I've also got a day job, but learn quite abit about what I'm buying before just handing over $200 for a nib because I can.

 

[A Toadstool Leather]

Naming is not really useful outside of zoas imo. Zoas get odd names because we cannot id them otherwise. Coral names are just used to justify raising prices.

 

[Mattrg02]

Naming is not really useful outside of zoas imo. Zoas get odd names because we cannot id them otherwise. Coral names are just used to justify raising prices.

Right!

Looking over the Z's corals here, I see a lot of whatever Bali Shortcake (a common coral) is, colored up nicely.

This isn't to say that there aren't unique corals out there. I have yet to see another WD coral look a like. Same goes for some montiporas out there.

One thing that we could all do, right now, is to take a stand against the sellers selling tiny nibs. Go ahead and pay $200 for a frag, but at least expect a healthy frag that isn't going to take a year to get going. No more frags of a frag. Everyone, at least do that.

 

[vertigo01]

It is a big word. If it was easy to sustain a business doing this for less, it would be done for less.

There are unquestionably scammers in this business and they need to be called out. That said, there are many very reputable companies out there making a living doing an honest job of sourcing corals, coloring them up and growing them, then selling the stand outs for a premium. I love Battle Corals to think of one. I’d pay double for his frags if they were the cheapest crap out there. They’re amazingly healthy and his customer service is excellent. Fortunately they’re not the cheapest crap out there, they’re amazing corals as well.

If price is the most important factor to you, you may want to consider you’re sometimes part of the problem. Do you pay extra for good customer service or do you buy the frag from some place cheaper? Do you buy your frags by weight, or by how well they do in your tank? Are you loyal to the guys who give you good service and support? Even when they cost more? If it’s all about price, you’re going to spend a lot of time bumping into fly by night operations.

I disagree.
It can be done for less. However that is not appealing to most sellers, as they would rather sell 1 higher priced frag than 5 lower priced frags.
It all about greed.

I take offense to your that buyers are a part of the problem comment.
No I don't pay extra for good customer service. I expect good customer service no matter the price.
Call me old fashioned= but I am not of the liberal mindset that 1 must pay for exceptional service. Otherwise you'll get mediocre service.

I assume that you also pay full price for your vehicles, name brand clothes,lawn equipment, Etc. Etc. or do you search out the best price possible?

 

[BoomCorals]

I can assure you that this guy's bread and butter is coral, with fish a distant second. Never has he tried to sell me anything else.

His store is full of tanks that are full of corals.

And he sells only saltwater livestock? Nothing else?

 

[Mattrg02]

And he sells only saltwater livestock? Nothing else?

That's all I ever see people buying, the livestock. There aren't any freshwater livestock. He has equipment for sale, but it's pretty limited.

 

[BoomCorals]

That's all I ever see people buying, the livestock. There aren't any freshwater livestock. He has equipment for sale, but it's pretty limited.

That's great then he can make that work, and a diamond in the rough for sure. Most people aren't in that situation though where they can sell everything at low profit margins and still make ends meet and keep a brick and mortar store going. Again it doesn't make a business evil or "wrong" for needing to make profits. Are some businesses egregious in this regard? Of course, and people should let their dollars do the talking. But others are much more reasonable and charge fair market value to make ends meet. Most businesses won't survive long term charging hobbyist prices. In my situation, I charge more than hobbyist prices, but less than most reputable vendors, even on "designer" frags. (I had Walt Disneys for $99 this weekend) I'm fortunate that my overhead is very low, but I won't be quitting my day job any time soon (or ever). But I'm not in this to be rich, I'm in it for the fun, and have a small successful side business if I can make it work.

 

[Mattrg02]

That's great then he can make that work, and a diamond in the rough for sure. Most people aren't in that situation though where they can sell everything at low profit margins and still make ends meet and keep a brick and mortar store going. Again it doesn't make a business evil or "wrong" for needing to make profits. Are some businesses egregious in this regard? Of course, and people should let their dollars do the talking. But others are much more reasonable and charge fair market value to make ends meet. Most businesses won't survive long term charging hobbyist prices. In my situation, I charge more than hobbyist prices, but less than most reputable vendors, even on "designer" frags. (I had Walt Disneys for $99 this weekend) I'm fortunate that my overhead is very low, but I won't be quitting my day job any time soon (or ever). But I'm not in this to be rich, I'm in it for the fun, and have a small successful side business if I can make it work.

You and BattleCorals sound like pretty decent sellers. While you have plenty "$200 frags", you at least give healthy frags that are ready to go. So, I'll give you that!

Profits only go so far once a bad reputation begins. Frags of frags, to me, is unethical. People that buy them are ignorant and just as unethical, in my opinion.

 

[BoomCorals]

You and BattleCorals sound like pretty decent sellers. While you have plenty "$200 frags", you at least give healthy frags that are ready to go. So, I'll give you that!

Profits only go so far once a bad reputation begins. Frags of frags, to me, is unethical. People that buy them are ignorant and just as unethical, in my opinion.

I appreciate that, and on your 2nd part I couldn't agree more.

 

[chris3del]

I’m not trying to call out any vendors but this price is crazy

 

[DSC reef]

There's plenty of vendors I will never buy from just for the fact that I see the same coral from a sale months ago that are renamed and the price jacked up from 75 dollars to 200+. But that's the thing, if I don't like the price or practice I just won't buy it. Free market and people can sell or buy what they want for the price they want, I don't expect any buisness to change for me or my budget. I can tell who's honest and sells nice coral and they will get our buisness, simple.

 

[pirate2876]

As a hobbyist, what makes a coral high end? I've had a few people ask me what "high end" corals I have and I never know how to answer that. Does it have to be expensive to be high end? Or does that coral itself justify the price? I have plenty of SPS that are very nice but, I bought a full colony at a reasonable price and grew it out to look like that. Should I charge a premium now for that coral? For my overhead? For my staff(my dog?)? Am I going to pay tax on the income from the coral? How come the price from an online vendor is the same as a fellow hobbyist? I might be off my rocker but, I believe we, the hobbyist, are to blame for this. The market dictates the price...Is it unethical for property in CA to be exponentially higher in cost than property somewhere else? The market dictates the price.

 

[A Toadstool Leather]

I’m not trying to call out any vendors but this price is crazy

That is the price of a small setup lol. I cannot imagine how bad losing an expensive coral like that would be. Say what you want about bounch mushrooms but at least they are hardy.

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

May I ask why, if there are cheaper, similar corals out there, you don’t just buy those?

I’ll be honest, I have $10,000 in my tank counting only the tank and stand. Add to that the filtration, additives, pumps, equipment, and electricity and the total gets to be lots. For that money I get 16 cubic feet of water to decorate. I really want what I want. I spend a lot of time mixing my colors and species just right. My frags are a small portion of the total hobby expense.

Is it possible the market is there to satisfy us both? If it’s not that important to you, there is a cornucopia of great corals with great colors out there. Heck, my favorite coral is my old friend the purple stylo. On the margins though there are a few corals out there that have a little more going for them in ways that some of us want. I’m willing to pay more, sometimes quite a bit more when something is unique and adds something to my collection. Why get upset that I can get that if you’re happy with the alternative?

If you’re not happy with the alternative however, you’re saying you do in fact value and prize the frag you have your eye on. You just don’t like having to pay to get it. Is it really surprising someone who values it enough to fork over the money is going to get it instead? Would either of us be better off if the quality vendors who keep bringing this variety to market lost interest in finding great frags because they can’t sell them for a premium?

My point was that if you feel the prices for designer frags are too high, stop buying them, and tell the vendor why you're not buying. I never said nor implied that there should be no high-end segment to the coral frag market. I was simply echoing the OP's sentiments: adding a name to a common coral frag increases prices. I've seen it happen, the OP's seen it happen, and I'm sure other reefers have seen in happen too. Dr. Mac at Pacific East Aquaculture has even seen it happen at the wholesale level.

I personally feel that hype and advertising is driving coral prices up. Eventually, I think reefers will start to realize that really expensive corals are not so different from the basic monochrome flagship acros of the past once they start growing in your tank (remember, Adam over at Battlecorals literally said you can see "no nuance" of these designer corals once they grow out.. you see "STRUCTURE - and base color AT BEST!"). I think this realization has already started to happen: only recently have I started to see threads where people complain about designer coral prices. If I'm wrong and the demand is stable and accurate, then the prices won't drop over time, and designer frags will cost the same.

Either way, complaining on a forum is not the way to enact change. Not buying designer frags, and telling vendors why you won't buy their designer frags, is the only way to change prices. That was my point.

 

[Servillius]

I disagree.
It can be done for less. However that is not appealing to most sellers, as they would rather sell 1 higher priced frag than 5 lower priced frags.
It all about greed.

I take offense to your that buyers are a part of the problem comment.
No I don't pay extra for good customer service. I expect good customer service no matter the price.
Call me old fashioned= but I am not of the liberal mindset that 1 must pay for exceptional service. Otherwise you'll get mediocre service.

I assume that you also pay full price for your vehicles, name brand clothes,lawn equipment, Etc. Etc. or do you search out the best price possible?

Time is valuable. I always make sure the people that take good care of me get taken care of in return. I also tend to get well taken care of. I paid more for my car because the service at my dealership is vastly better than my previous dealership. My lawn guy gets a tip every month and a Christmas bonus. So does my maid. So do my trash guys. So does my mail lady. When I eat if the service is good I tip well and when its bad I tip and never go back. No, I don't have bunches of money, but I do get to chose where it goes when I have it.

That is not the same as saying I'm an idiot and incapable of identifying a fair deal. Its also a fairly old fashioned view and an odd thing to associate with a progressive mindset.

If what matters to you is price you should shop at a business that minimizes their overhead in order to reduce their price. If that's what is important to you then there is nothing wrong with making that choice. It would make sense however that they don't really have the time or the staff to take care of you the way someone making a bit more of a premium would.

I appreciate people get riled up on this subject, but I really want to emphasize a few points.

1. Selling crap in the hope that you can trap a few suckers is unethical and a very unsuccessful long term business strategy. I would never even consider defending these folks. Buy from reputable sellers who earned their good name.
2. Charging a lot of some frags is not the same at all. I'm glad for the folks that do the hard work of bringing me new and interesting corals. Thanks guys!
3. I expect most sellers would rather sell all of their corals. In any batch they buy there are some they can get a high price for and some lower. They don't toss the cheap ones out. They do their best to chose prices at which all their products will sell.
4. If you're taking offense at the notion the purchasing decisions of buyers have an effect on the selling decisions of sellers I'll accept I could have phrased this more carefully. Please consider you seem to be saying anyone who doesn't price things in accordance with your value system is greedy. This whole thread implies a pretty harsh whack at your fellow hobbyists and the businesses that service them.

People can want different things for their money without one side being right or wrong and without either party being evil.

 

[Servillius]

My point was that if you feel the prices for designer frags are too high, stop buying them, and tell the vendor why you're not buying. I never said nor implied that there should be no high-end segment to the coral frag market. I was simply echoing the OP's sentiments: adding a name to a common coral frag increases prices. I've seen it happen, the OP's seen it happen, and I'm sure other reefers have seen in happen too. Dr. Mac at Pacific East Aquaculture has even seen it happen at the wholesale level.

I personally feel that hype and advertising is driving coral prices up. Eventually, I think reefers will start to realize that really expensive corals are not so different from the basic monochrome flagship acros of the past once they start growing in your tank (remember, Adam over at Battlecorals literally said you can see "no nuance" of these designer corals once they grow out.. you see "STRUCTURE - and base color AT BEST!"). I think this realization has already started to happen: only recently have I started to see threads where people complain about designer coral prices. If I'm wrong and the demand is stable and accurate, then the prices won't drop over time, and designer frags will cost the same.

Either way, complaining on a forum is not the way to enact change. Not buying designer frags, and telling vendors why you won't buy their designer frags, is the only way to change prices. That was my point.

I totally agree. If a vendor is selling something you think is incorrectly priced you should tell them and let them know why. Doing so in the friendliest possible manner will probably get you more mileage, but that's just a stray thought and not advice for anyone since I expect most of us already know and do this. It is also true that names can get all sorts of folks a bit over excited and that it is only merited some of the time. Are Air Jordan's worth the price? Who knows. At least with Air's we know something about what we're getting. With some coral sellers, you're just getting a name slapped on something that showed up in a box for them. Don't buy from those guys.

When it comes to complaining about designer coral prices, I can assure you that has been happening as long as there have been aquarium forums. I expect the price of todays designer corals will drop and something new will show up next week with a higher price tag on it. I remember when half dead green gonni's were a big deal. I don't know that the supply of new things is unlimited, we'll have to see on that.

My sole quibble would be to say this. I agree with the questions Adam raises in the article you cite. He's pretty careful not to offer a definitive answer. The quote ends up looking a bit out of context here. He is absolutely right that different things matter at different distances. Once again, my best coral buddy is a giant purple stylo anyone here will give you a pound of free if you show up on their doorstep. Its also important to note he is not saying nothing else matters. He is saying at a distance much of what we find so appealing in those pricy corals is much less important. He's absolutely right. I do view my tank close up sometimes too though, and I really love those things when I do so.

 

[Servillius]

That's great then he can make that work, and a diamond in the rough for sure. Most people aren't in that situation though where they can sell everything at low profit margins and still make ends meet and keep a brick and mortar store going. Again it doesn't make a business evil or "wrong" for needing to make profits. Are some businesses egregious in this regard? Of course, and people should let their dollars do the talking. But others are much more reasonable and charge fair market value to make ends meet. Most businesses won't survive long term charging hobbyist prices. In my situation, I charge more than hobbyist prices, but less than most reputable vendors, even on "designer" frags. (I had Walt Disneys for $99 this weekend) I'm fortunate that my overhead is very low, but I won't be quitting my day job any time soon (or ever). But I'm not in this to be rich, I'm in it for the fun, and have a small successful side business if I can make it work.

Sorry I missed that! I totally would have been willing to try one at $99. I've avoided them so far because it sounds like the Disney really shows off mostly under a lot of blue light and I really like the look of halides over LED; therefore shying away from the really blue loving stuff (and not trying to pick a fight on lighting as well!)

 

[tautog83]

well its about the hype, just like everything else in this world its how someone else talks something up over what a person actually likes. i bet there is tons of people who own a wd for the sole person to sell it not because they even like the coral . ive said it in other posts as well its the vendors that put their name in front of cheap corals that ruin this hobby. when you see an $80 ora birds of paradise , its best to stay clear .

 

[A Toadstool Leather]

While it would be nice if names stopped being added to corals that dont need them, so called "designer corals" will only disappear if you vote with your wallet.

 

[DSC reef]

IMO price is up to the vendor and they can charge what they want. One vendor or store might sell an ORA bird of paradise for 80 dollars while our LFS sells them for 40 dollars. I wouldn't compare the ORA name to the latest unicorn rainbow spit acropora, not even the same. This debate can go on forever but the main point I think is everyone has the right to sell the coral for what they want. Instead of it ruining your day just shop else where. One person sells a Walt Disney frag for 300 dollars, so what. When you find a frag for 99 from a reputable vendor it just makes that purchase so much sweeter.