Jacked Up SPS prices

[Frozn]

I can barely sell mini colonies of name brand mid grade frags for $20 a pop. But they fly out the tank of a known shop at 3x the cost for a small frag. I don't get it. People complain at high cost, but there's also a bunch that put their nose up at steals. I have several frags that range in the $60-100 price range from online vendors that i "try" to sell at $20 for a frag 3x+ the size. It makes no sense!

I've also noticed with my 10yrs of experience that with the out pouring of LED lighting that prices have seemed to climb simply due to the color you can achieve. I however run a T5 setup with supplemental Kessil for a little shimmer and pop. I also feel that LEDs present more of a false coloration due to deep "black light effect". I prefer to have a colorfully lined tank with daylights and one that only seems to accentuate the colors during dawn or dusk. I personally am not huge on an LED only tank either as I feel it presents too much of an artificial aesthetic for me.

To further add to the discussion of "rare or high end coral pricing" it seems a lot of misunderstanding surrounds what happens to a coral in artificial lighting. You could collect 2 of the same species side by side in the ocean and once placed in an artificial tank could both turn into completely different colored pieces. These corals do not look the same in the ocean if you have ever had the pleasure to snorkle/scuba on a reef. One prime example is the Walt Disney which has already been pointed out. I can guarantee this coral didn't look anything like the way it does in the wild, as most know it's nothing special in day light. It only shines under overwhelming blue light. Even then people struggle to actually achieve the color of some of these photos posted. I won't even get started on the ease of photo adjustments to further emphasize these fantastic colors. We all know a simple phone camera can be utilized for color emphasises ( notice I didn't say alteration)

 

[tautog83]

I loved Dr macs post on how he couldn't sell zoos at a swap once because he didn't name them but once he put some wacky name on it he sold every frag

 

[BoomCorals]

I loved Dr macs post on how he couldn't sell zoos at a swap once because he didn't name them but once he put some wacky name on it he sold every frag

People won't buy them without a name. No joke.

 

[Reef Pets]

Agreed. No name equals no sale.

 

[Servillius]

Agreed. No name equals no sale.

That’s probably extreme on the part of the buyers, but the name is not irrelevant. In a perfect world where everyone is honest the name helps me research it, look at other examples grown out or under other lights, read about its habits, etc.

We live a long way from a perfect world and that’s partly because we deal in clones which makes consistency of product possible, but we deal in clones, so proving consistency and quality is very hard. A name, good pictures and a very reliable seller do add value though. If anything the reputation of a seller, along with a name adds more value because of the ease with which disreputable people can enter the market.

Like for example being able to go after some of those amazing Reef Pets frags I drooled over so many times in the past! I remember one red hoke in particular I wish I had another frag of... or was it blue. I’m getting old, maybe I can find a pic.

 

[Frozn]

I loved Dr macs post on how he couldn't sell zoos at a swap once because he didn't name them but once he put some wacky name on it he sold every frag

No kidding. I took a 2 year break in the midst of my 10yrs in the hobby. Definitely seen renaming of some corals, perhaps on purpose or because they forgot it's initial name so they gave it a new one!

 

[Reef Pets]

That’s probably extreme on the part of the buyers, but the name is not irrelevant. In a perfect world where everyone is honest the name helps me research it, look at other examples grown out or under other lights, read about its habits, etc.

We live a long way from a perfect world and that’s partly because we deal in clones which makes consistency of product possible, but we deal in clones, so proving consistency and quality is very hard. A name, good pictures and a very reliable seller do add value though. If anything the reputation of a seller, along with a name adds more value because of the ease with which disreputable people can enter the market.

Like for example being able to go after some of those amazing Reef Pets frags I drooled over so many times in the past! I remember one red hoke in particular I wish I had another frag of... or was it blue. I’m getting old, maybe I can find a pic.

The problem that I see with names is that vendors name the exact same coral a different name. These coral will come from the same region, same wholesaler and many times even from the same coral. In this case the coolest name fetches the highest dollar.
I never understood it because a name doesn’t make a difference to me. That’s why you don’t see me offering other vendors named coral. To me, coloration is everything.
I do understand naming in the aspect of being able to identify a certain coral but again with many different names on the same coral, it becomes pointless.
For that reason I keep up with my own names or at least try to. Many customers know the names better than I do.
I do appreciate the kind words!

 

[edosan]

My opinion:
If you have the money buy it, if you dont, then dont and keep looking, but please STOP complaining about price! ;Dead
In the reef frag world price tag have a lot of variables, for example: is not for sale but if you want it, the price is $$$$$ (and if you have the money and want to get that frag...is not a problem then, all good)
Of course we all will love to have cheap "rainbow" frags, but is not always possible, is like cars...you can complain about Lamborgini or Ferrari is too expensive...but what is the point? get a Ford!

 

[Braves Fan]

I made a post earlier in this thread on my views of most,, used car sales men,, Lawyers and Coral Vendors ,,, I do want to add something that does mean something to me ,, a reason that I am willing to continue pay more $$$ for a coral,,, a reason that I continue to buy corals from,,, "A" list coral vendors,,, vendors that charge higher $$$ for their coral frags. Battle Corals, WWC, Cherry Corals, Reefers Direct and the like. I also want to mention Boom Corals,,, he is not so much " yet " a high end coral vendor, but he is very active on R2R and imparts his knowledge on keeping our corals alive and a host of other topics,, he has made several post in this thread vendor participation in the forum,, moves a vendor up my list of vendors that I use,,, really fast.

Like I said in my earlier post,, I feel I am average,, run of the mill reefer,,, my system is pretty much like every other blue collar reefer out there.. I don't have a quarantine system set up for the SPS corals that I buy,,, do I dip them,,, yea,,, is that good enough,,, not by a long shot,,, if your not a "A" list vendor,, your not getting my money,,, I look at paying a higher surcharge for my corals as insuring that I have a better than average chance of not filling my tank with a bunch of unwanted bad critters,,, for that ,,, and only that,, I am willing to pay,,,

 

[Mattrg02]

My opinion:
If you have the money buy it, if you dont, then dont and keep looking, but please STOP complaining about price! ;Dead
In the reef frag world price tag have a lot of variables, for example: is not for sale but if you want it, the price is $$$$$ (and if you have the money and want to get that frag...is not a problem then, all good)
Of course we all will love to have cheap "rainbow" frags, but is not always possible, is like cars...you can complain about Lamborgini or Ferrari is too expensive...but what is the point? get a Ford!

Except lambo and Ferrari and Porsche (had to throw that in there) are clearly SUPERIOR to Ford, whereas a "pink stinky winky " acro is the same as a regular old magenta colored tenuis, yet priced 10 times over.

 

[Mattrg02]

I made a post earlier in this thread on my views of most,, used car sales men,, Lawyers and Coral Vendors ,,, I do want to add something that does mean something to me ,, a reason that I am willing to continue pay more $$$ for a coral,,, a reason that I continue to buy corals from,,, "A" list coral vendors,,, vendors that charge higher $$$ for their coral frags. Battle Corals, WWC, Cherry Corals, Reefers Direct and the like. I also want to mention Boom Corals,,, he is not so much " yet " a high end coral vendor, but he is very active on R2R and imparts his knowledge on keeping our corals alive and a host of other topics,, he has made several post in this thread vendor participation in the forum,, moves a vendor up my list of vendors that I use,,, really fast.

Like I said in my earlier post,, I feel I am average,, run of the mill reefer,,, my system is pretty much like every other blue collar reefer out there.. I don't have a quarantine system set up for the SPS corals that I buy,,, do I dip them,,, yea,,, is that good enough,,, not by a long shot,,, if your not a "A" list vendor,, your not getting my money,,, I look at paying a higher surcharge for my corals as insuring that I have a better than average chance of not filling my tank with a bunch of unwanted bad critters,,, for that ,,, and only that,, I am willing to pay,,,

This was a good point made. Someone here gave me crabs, well nudis, and it's wrecking my montiporas.

 

[DSC reef]

Except lambo and Ferrari and Porsche (had to throw that in there) are clearly SUPERIOR to Ford, whereas a "pink stinky winky " acro is the same as a regular old magenta colored tenuis, yet priced 10 times over.

Not to turn this into a car vs car thread but how many Ferraris, lambos do you see on the road with 200,000 miles on the odometer? Superior can be a subjective term with cars just like frags with the reefing world. To me, there superior in speed but not for reliability. The reason one would buy a Ferrari could be different from one person to another. Same with high dollar frags. One person could buy it for color, the other want to have the named coral in the tank. I'm a Chevy guy BTW

 

[Mattrg02]

Not to turn this into a car vs car thread but how many Ferraris, lambos do you see on the road with 200,000 miles on the odometer? Superior can be a subjective term with cars just like frags with the reefing world. To me, there superior in speed but not for reliability. The reason one would buy a Ferrari could be different from one person to another. Same with high dollar frags. One person could buy it for color, the other want to have the named coral in the tank. I'm a Chevy guy BTW

There's a dude with 750k miles on his Porsche 911 :-D

They are like any other car in terms of longevity, you'll need to keep it maintained. Acros are like Lambos. Both require ALOT of maintenance and the tools to do so ain't cheap! But boy are some of them nice to look at.

I'm a Porsche guy BTW ;-)

 

[Mattrg02]

I can barely sell mini colonies of name brand mid grade frags for $20 a pop. But they fly out the tank of a known shop at 3x the cost for a small frag. I don't get it. People complain at high cost, but there's also a bunch that put their nose up at steals. I have several frags that range in the $60-100 price range from online vendors that i "try" to sell at $20 for a frag 3x+ the size. It makes no sense!

I've also noticed with my 10yrs of experience that with the out pouring of LED lighting that prices have seemed to climb simply due to the color you can achieve. I however run a T5 setup with supplemental Kessil for a little shimmer and pop. I also feel that LEDs present more of a false coloration due to deep "black light effect". I prefer to have a colorfully lined tank with daylights and one that only seems to accentuate the colors during dawn or dusk. I personally am not huge on an LED only tank either as I feel it presents too much of an artificial aesthetic for me.

To further add to the discussion of "rare or high end coral pricing" it seems a lot of misunderstanding surrounds what happens to a coral in artificial lighting. You could collect 2 of the same species side by side in the ocean and once placed in an artificial tank could both turn into completely different colored pieces. These corals do not look the same in the ocean if you have ever had the pleasure to snorkle/scuba on a reef. One prime example is the Walt Disney which has already been pointed out. I can guarantee this coral didn't look anything like the way it does in the wild, as most know it's nothing special in day light. It only shines under overwhelming blue light. Even then people struggle to actually achieve the color of some of these photos posted. I won't even get started on the ease of photo adjustments to further emphasize these fantastic colors. We all know a simple phone camera can be utilized for color emphasises ( notice I didn't say alteration)

What are you selling for $20?

 

[Adam10045]

Let's get real, the sickest part about highly priced frags is knowing that the owner probably payed $100-200 for the colony and is now selling 1/2" frags for $200+.

 

[Servillius]

Let's get real, the sickest part about highly priced frags is knowing that the owner probably payed $100-200 for the colony and is now selling 1/2" frags for $200+.

So let’s not argue here, but I would like to walk through some questions.

Does it really matter what he makes relative to what he paid on that coral, or is the real question what he earns on average relative to his expenses?

If you run a business, you take the risk as well as getting the reward. Would anyone here buy cheaper corals if it came with a commitment to send the guy extra money when business sucks? (Assuming this is an honest and reputable vendor who did everything right)

What exactly is a fair markup? Should there be a limit on how much your expenses can be? On your profit? If so, how much? Should that be an average limit or should the limit apply to every single item independently?

If you’re going to limit the profit, do you limit the loss? If you fix the amount someone can lose on a product, who pays the new, higher price?

 

[acro-ed]

There are a couple "hard truths" in all of this:

-Supply and demand prevails; it doesn't matter what your subjective opinion is.

-Retailers and hobbyists alike are both harming the hobby when they "re-name" something that already had a name. This practice is done by MANY people now (including many of the reputable shops mentioned in this thread).

It's better for business to "re-name" something such that the perceived rarity is even greater. I have seen COUNTLESS examples of this, including from otherwise reputable businesses. This is "taking advantage" of someone's ignorance and/or inability to determine the specific characteristics of a certain coral, and while not illegal, is an unethical practice. Sometimes it is not known/intended, but many times it is.

The intersection of these hard truths is where the seller artificially manipulates the perceived supply. VERY few acros in the hobby are ACTUALLY rare. As an example, the "walt disney" is hardly rare, and the perceived rarity of various and substantially similar (to include the "same") "rainbow A. tenuis" does not reflect the fact that there is a regular supply from wholesalers.

A classic example of the "predatory marketing" I am referring to is what has happened to the GARF Bonsai. This coral is STILL being renamed by "top tier" vendors because a "new" name yields far more profit. There are countless other examples of this.

Unfortunately, until we have a way to genetically verify a specific coral, the different color/growth achieved by the same coral under different conditions makes it impossible to effectively combat this problem.

The best defense against this is to study the nuances in different species, and if you are seeking a very specific coral that you are indeed convinced is a genetic anomaly you must trace lineage to the parent colony you are trying to replicate, not just looking for someone else with the same "name" for sale.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Adam10045]

So let’s not argue here, but I would like to walk through some questions.

Does it really matter what he makes relative to what he paid on that coral, or is the real question what he earns on average relative to his expenses?

If you run a business, you take the risk as well as getting the reward. Would anyone here buy cheaper corals if it came with a commitment to send the guy extra money when business sucks? (Assuming this is an honest and reputable vendor who did everything right)

What exactly is a fair markup? Should there be a limit on how much your expenses can be? On your profit? If so, how much? Should that be an average limit or should the limit apply to every single item independently?

If you’re going to limit the profit, do you limit the loss? If you fix the amount someone can lose on a product, who pays the new, higher price?

I understand making a little cash or profit don't get me wrong. Does this scenario "help" with equipment and up keep? Let's say for argument sake someone bought a colony for $200, put it under good lighting and slapped a fancy name on it. Let's also add that this small colony has about 30 tips and they stick a price tag of $150 and call it "NEW!!"
You mean to tell me that making $4500 + off of a $200 colony that will regrow isn't robbery? That's taking advantage of the hobbyist and to me takes the fun out of it. I find it comical seeing these big sellers with their "brand name" attached to frags. To me that screams 1 or 2 things here... someone is cherry picking to make money or they are really good at selling typical things under really fancy lighting. Anyone can color up a colony but by the time we (the average joe) gets them, they have already been picked through so someone can frag out the nice pieces and make big bucks.

 

[DSC reef]

I understand making a little cash or profit don't get me wrong. Does this scenario "help" with equipment and up keep? Let's say for argument sake someone bought a colony for $200, put it under good lighting and slapped a fancy name on it. Let's also add that this small colony has about 30 tips and they stick a price tag of $150 and call it "NEW!!"
You mean to tell me that making $4500 + off of a $200 colony that will regrow isn't robbery? That's taking advantage of the hobbyist and to me takes the fun out of it. I find it comical seeing these big sellers with their "brand name" attached to frags. To me that screams 1 or 2 things here... someone is cherry picking to make money or they are really good at selling typical things under really fancy lighting. Anyone can color up a colony but by the time we (the average joe) gets them, they have already been picked through so someone can frag out the nice pieces and make big bucks.

So don't buy it, and not everyone can color up a colony. Did you purchase the anemone in your avatar?

 

[S-t-r-e-t-c-h]

A classic example of the "predatory marketing" I am referring to is what has happened to the GARF Bonsai. This coral is STILL being renamed by "top tier" vendors because a "new" name yields far more profit. There are countless other examples of this.

It's wild to me that anyone would re-name a GARF bonsai. That is one of the truly unique corals, where the name actually implies something meaningful; i.e. hardy, colorful and will grow like crazy. Sad.

You mean to tell me that making $4500 + off of a $200 colony that will regrow isn't robbery?

No, that's not robbery. That's capitalism. Same way charging $500 for a pair of jeans isn't robbery because it only contains $2 worth of cotton. Things are worth what people will pay for them.